sensible-indian Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Ishant's 2 wickets turned the game around. That's a fact.
Marut Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I don't think Ishant's average is bad at all. It is all relative to the times he is playing. Most good bowlers in this era averages around 30 apart from Steyn' date=' philander who mostly bowls in SA and Harris. In an era when a lot of bowlers averaged less than 25, our best bowler Kapil Dev averaged about 30. Even Ishant averaged around 31 till 2011 but he lost it at times trying to copy others rather than be himself. He is a steady bowler and will never be an international class.[/quote'] But Kapil was world class for his time, inspite of that average. He could run through top sides from time to time - the absence of good support bowlers, flat domestic pitches and continuous play without rest ruined his figures somewhat. Moreover, Kapil was brilliant in ODIs, Ishant is bad in every format.
Marut Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Ishant's bowling average will reach 40 before Rohit's batting average reaches 40 :haha:
Gollum Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 We all saw times when he was not playing and we tried others Pankaj Singh or even a dream combo for the average Indian fan like Yadav and Aaron. I know his average is usually brought up all the time but here is the fact,I will admit that he is not a Dale Steyn or for the matter of fact Anderson He could have been as good as Morkel or Broad had he found a decent partner or had atleast 2 other decent bowlers supporting him.....His performances when Zak was in the same X1 are much different than when he is asked to carry all the load himself. How many times has he let down when the other bowlers were stepping up to the plate? It is either he wins games single-handedly or the entire bowling attack screws up which has been the case quiet often. Case in hand-we saw in Srilanka where Ashwin and Mishra stepped up big time in favorable conditions and he has been more than good and executed his role perfectly. Yup bro, they are even worse !!! http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=1;filter=advanced;player_involve=7678;template=results;type=bowling
MCcricket Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Let me tell. You this, Ishant under a captain like Imran or Ganguly could have been good , he performed better in tandem with Zak . We need a good captain n bowling coach and he will be decent as we aren't having a good bench strength and his important years where he could mature fast n be good Bowler coincided with nincompoop Dhoni who made him as workhorse n his only task was to hold n end n was not asked to bowl aggressively , short spells n be given good field placement
Gollum Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 He is rubbish by world standards but unfortunately makes into our team on merit presently. He offers our captain some kind of control over run scoring because we have seen what our other pacers are capable of doing. When Shami comes back I expect him to replace Ishant. Then Bhuvi can be our control guy. BK, Shami,Umesh,Ashwin,Mishra looks much better on paper.
Gollum Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Let me tell. You this' date=' Ishant under a captain like Imran or Ganguly could have been good ,[b'] he performed better in tandem with Zak . We need a good captain n bowling coach and he will be decent as we aren't having a good bench strength and his important years where he could mature fast n be good Bowler coincided with nincompoop Dhoni who made him as workhorse n his only task was to hold n end n was not asked to bowl aggressively , short spells n be given good field placement Check post 24.
maniac Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Yup bro, they are even worse !!! http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=1;filter=advanced;player_involve=7678;template=results;type=bowling That includes the disastrous Aussie tour....Also he was MOS in the WI series,Lords test so it kind of evens out.but Zak was around to mentor him around 2009-2011 when he was on top of the world...then something happened and 2013 I will say he turned it around.....those years from 2011-2013 were hard.
maniac Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 He is rubbish by world standards but unfortunately makes into our team on merit presently. He offers our captain some kind of control over run scoring because we have seen what our other pacers are capable of doing. When Shami comes back I expect him to replace Ishant. Then Bhuvi can be our control guy. BK' date= Shami,Umesh,Ashwin,Mishra looks much better on paper. In tests on flat pitches,when there is no pressure to take risks he will be murdered...unless he add 5K to his pace.....he is useless....one thing I can say is if he raises his batting I will take him over Binny and from what I saw in England he has potential there but sorry doesn't cut it on bowling alone in all conditions in Tests. In ODI's he is 2nd after Shami so no doubts there.
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Yup bro, they are even worse !!! http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/236779.html?class=1;filter=advanced;player_involve=7678;template=results;type=bowling In a way, it helped Ishant to lose the solidity that a Zak could give - since the latter was deemed the senior bowler, the blame would have fallen on him. Once Zak retired, Pisshy had to pull up his socks (to an extent) and performed a bit better, as otherwise he would have been the target of much ire... which he still is anyway :giggle:
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 In tests on flat pitches,when there is no pressure to take risks he will be murdered...unless he add 5K to his pace.....he is useless....one thing I can say is if he raises his batting I will take him over Binny and from what I saw in England he has potential there but sorry doesn't cut it on bowling alone in all conditions in Tests. In ODI's he is 2nd after Shami so no doubts there. Actually, even with BK's current batting ability, I would choose him over Nohit in Tests outside SC. Would you agree? :--D
Gollum Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 In tests on flat pitches,when there is no pressure to take risks he will be murdered...unless he add 5K to his pace.....he is useless....one thing I can say is if he raises his batting I will take him over Binny and from what I saw in England he has potential there but sorry doesn't cut it on bowling alone in all conditions in Tests. In ODI's he is 2nd after Shami so no doubts there. BK was injured in Aus, so that gave us a wrong picture. He can bowl 130-135 consistently. And I consider him to be a bowling all rounder, walks into our test team. Hope Shami improves, he is a gun ODI bowler but a long way to go in tests. So yeah Ishant will be in our 1st XI for the time being but that could all change in 12 months time. We saw Umesh bowl much better in the 2nd test, hope he keeps it up. Actually it's good if others improve, will force Ishant too to step up and overall will be good for Indian cricket.
maniac Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 BK was injured in Aus' date=' so that gave us a wrong picture. He can bowl 130-135 consistently. And I consider him to be a bowling all rounder, walks into our test team. Hope Shami improves, he is a gun ODI bowler but a long way to go in tests. So yeah Ishant will be in our 1st XI for the time being but that could all change in 12 months time. We saw Umesh bowl much better in the 2nd test, hope he keeps it up. Actually it's good if others improve, will force Ishant too to step up and overall will be good for Indian cricket.[/quote'] BK is 130-135 max when he is fresh,not consistently.....on bouncy pitches,he will just be a recipe for disaster.....in Aus,SA and SC there is no place for him......he is a must in England and Nzl though. One thing I admire about Ishant is his fitness levels....His pace is consistent througout and has the ability to bowl 140+ when in rythm.....same with Yadav. Shami's length needs adjustment...ideal for ODI but too short of length for tests but yes there is potential there. Aaron is your go to man on fast bouncy pitches,but shouldn't be overplayed. I think BK should be kept in the scheme of things because with a little work,I would love for him to take over Bunny.
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 BK was injured in Aus' date=' so that gave us a wrong picture. He can bowl 130-135 consistently. And I consider him to be a bowling all rounder, walks into our test team. Hope Shami improves, he is a gun ODI bowler but a long way to go in tests. So yeah Ishant will be in our 1st XI for the time being but that could all change in 12 months time. We saw Umesh bowl much better in the 2nd test, hope he keeps it up. Actually it's good if others improve, will force Ishant too to step up and overall will be good for Indian cricket.[/quote'] I agree that he was well below par in Oz. But, on SC pitches, I don't think he will bowl in low-mid 130s consistently. Rather, he's more likely to bowl at around mid-late 120s over sustained spells; he's definitely a bit of a trundler, and I am not at all convinced of his effectiveness of SC tracks. But, in a 5 bowler attack, I would definitely want him for: a) Composed lower order batting b) Take 1-3 wkts in match with new ball c) Play holding role with old ball.
moniker Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Broad had a piss poor average when Anderson was struggling...Anderson found a new spring in his stride and Broad has been one of the most consistent bowlers ever since. Zak's injuries coincided too much with the best part of Ishant's career......in WI and in a few spells in the 2011 tour to England he looked good when PK stepped up...even in Aus 2011,he was the fastest from both sides and was unplayable at times when Umesh and Zak were good but in that match when VK was getting tonked around,he lost rythm too.... Can't put all the blame on one guy. For the last 1.5 years he has been very consistent and looked a different bowler....I guess we can pardon his sins for the time being...there is just too much hate without putting things in context Yeah, very consistently averaging 37+ "for the last 1.5 years". :mad:
maniac Posted August 25, 2015 Author Posted August 25, 2015 Yeah, very consistently averaging 37+ "for the last 1.5 years". :mad: That shows stats don't tell the entire picture and thanks for proving my point.....so it shows 9 tests filtered so let me count my way back. 2 tests in Srilanka-Average will be naturally high owing to the pitches but we all agree is a fast bowler's graveyard and we all agree he did well in limited conditions. Test series in Australia-was suffering with nagging injuries due to which he missed the world cup,but he bowled well in the limited opportunities,nothing suggests he was mediocre . Test series in England-Hero of our only win in what was a disastorous tour....do I need to explain more here? Test series in Newzealand-was a hero in 3 innings were he delivered but had that one innings on a flattened pitch when an opposition player got a frickin 300....can you really blame him for that? Going back even further 2 tests in South Africa-Brilliant in the first innings of the first test...2nd innings were the team almost chased 400+,cmon why blame one guy. 2nd test I have gone on record saying he was awful here. I skipped the Bangladesh test because it was pointless,washed out and unfortunately his stats took a further hit. Tell me if anything I have said is wrong
adi B Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Forget the average,even his strike rate is third class,even a third/fourth seamer would have a better strike rate than his.very inconsistent performer!!
MCcricket Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Under Kohlis captaincy I feel he will be better, he is fit, now he knows he cannot hide or be a useless workhorse, Kohli asked him to step up n lets see what he does as we all know what he is capable of n what he delivers, a huge gap but in test any day before trundlers he is in ,also do not see BK in a good test them unless he averages high 30 and bowls 133k to 142 K range.
Gollum Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 That shows stats don't tell the entire picture and thanks for proving my point.....so it shows 9 tests filtered so let me count my way back. 2 tests in Srilanka-Average will be naturally high owing to the pitches but we all agree is a fast bowler's graveyard and we all agree he did well in limited conditions. Test series in Australia-was suffering with nagging injuries due to which he missed the world cup,but he bowled well in the limited opportunities,nothing suggests he was mediocre . Test series in England-Hero of our only win in what was a disastorous tour....do I need to explain more here? Test series in Newzealand-was a hero in 3 innings were he delivered but had that one innings on a flattened pitch when an opposition player got a frickin 300....can you really blame him for that? Going back even further 2 tests in South Africa-Brilliant in the first innings of the first test...2nd innings were the team almost chased 400+,cmon why blame one guy. 2nd test I have gone on record saying he was awful here. I skipped the Bangladesh test because it was pointless,washed out and unfortunately his stats took a further hit. Tell me if anything I have said is wrong Lankan pitches aren't graveyards for fast bowlers. Other than that you are pretty much spot on. Last 2 years he has bowled much better but he needs to step it up for India's sake in the future. Only 26 years old, a wealth of experience, management trusts him, has some talent......
Vijy Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Lankan pitches aren't graveyards for fast bowlers. Other than that you are pretty much spot on. Last 2 years he has bowled much better but he needs to step it up for India's sake in the future. Only 26 years old' date=' a wealth of experience, management trusts him, [b']has some talent...... Tailunt. Ah, the answer to everything. I agree about age, experience, trust but I'm not sold on the last.
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