Practically Magic - 50 greatest test performances from the last 50 years (+ AT11 and Stats)

[express bowling]

Please refer to my last post which has some interesting stats and analysis. As for the question above, I wrote the following in that post:

"Also the comparison b/w batsmen and bowlers performing in all conditions is not apples to apples as a) a batsmen when he is set is expected to score a big 100 and bat for as long as possible. On the other hand, a bowler bowls in limited spells and is a part of the overall attack, b) the condition the ball and the pitch over the course of a test keep changing" 

 

A batsman has to deal with changing playing conditions, pitch conditions and ball conditions as well....not just the bowlers.

For a bowler to a true champion...he has to do well in less favourable pitches and conditions too. There were many top pacers of the '70s and '80s who did not like to tour the sub-continent as they were not mentally strong enough to do well in difficult situations although they were masters of their art.

 

[zen]

A batsman has to deal with changing playing conditions, pitch conditions and ball conditions as well....not just the bowlers.

For a bowler to a true champion...he has to do well in less favourable pitches and conditions too. There were many top pacers of the '70s and '80s who did not like to tour the sub-continent as they were not mentally strong enough to do well in difficult situations although they were masters of their art.

 

It is not the same. For e.g. in general, you cannot ask a spinner to open the bowling on a green pitch in a test. However, there could be a few exceptional spinners who could do that but that does not reflect badly on other spinners

Similarly, fast bowlers in the sub-con are dependent on the conditions. Take Steyn for example. In Ind most of his wkts have come from two tests that had conditions that favored him - 2008 A'bad which was a relatively green pitch where Ind too played 3 seamers, and b) 2010 Nagpur, which again was green and on top of that Ind fielded a relatively weak batting line up .... Based on these two performance in favorable conditions, one cannot say Steyn is a better bowler in Ind vs. a fast bowler who only played on flat surfaces and against a relatively strong Indian batting line up  

However, there are a handful of pace bowlers like Marshall who have performed exceptionally well in sub-con. In fact, Marshall's record in Ind is excellent despite his horrible first 3 tests. 

Also not playing a test in a country and having a poor record after playing in a country are different 

[express bowling]

It is not the same. For e.g. in general, you cannot ask a spinner to open the bowling on a green pitch in a test. However, there could be a few exceptional spinners who could do that but that does not reflect badly on other spinners

Similarly, fast bowlers in the sub-con are dependent on the conditions. Take Steyn for example. In Ind most of his wkts have come from two tests that had conditions that favored him - 2008 A'bad which was a relatively green pitch where Ind too played 3 seamers, and b) 2010 Nagpur, which again was green and on top of that Ind fielded a relatively weak batting line up .... Based on these two performance in favorable conditions, one cannot say Steyn is a better bowler in Ind vs. a fast bowler who only played on flat surfaces and against a relatively strong Indian batting line up  

However, there are a handful of pace bowlers like Marshall who have performed exceptionally well in sub-con. In fact, Marshall's record in Ind is excellent despite his horrible first 3 tests. 

Also not playing a test in a country and having a poor record after playing in a country are different 

A similar logic applies to batsmen as well on tours to SA , Australia

There are some pitches like Adelaide. Sometimes Durban, sometimes Sydney...which had flatter pitches and many foreign batsmen used to score there while failing on more bouncy pitches like Gabba, WACA, Wanderers.

Similarly...some batsmen have to open and face the new ball whereas some others come in more often when the ball is not new or pitches are not fresh. This gets reversed on spinning tracks where openers often have a chance to get set before the spinners start to operate etc.

Not playing in difficult situations and conditions shows a lack of mental toughness and a running-away mentality. Would we be happy if Ashwin excuses himself every time there is a tour of Australia or SA ?  Or Kohli says he won't play in England ?

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Marshall has actually   played 19 test matches in Asia (  out of which 9 are in India )   and  averages  23.05 .

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52419.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

Now that is what I call a true champion.

After seeing this...I would like to add him to my team in place of either McGrath or  Holding.

Edited January 31, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

Andy Roberts averages 21.53 in Asia and has played 9 out of his total 47 tests here.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52817.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

That is very good.

Jeff Thomson has not played a test in India and only 3 out of his 51 tests in Asia whre he averages 98

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7946.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

That is poor.

Edited January 31, 2016 by express bowling

[zen]

A similar logic applies to batsmen as well on tours to SA , Australia

There are some pitches like Adelaide. Sometimes Durban, sometimes Sydney...which had flatter pitches and many foreign batsmen used to score there while failing on more bouncy pitches like Gabba, WACA, Wanderers.

Similarly...some batsmen have to open and face the new ball whereas some others come in more often when the ball is not new or pitches are not fresh. This gets reversed on spinning tracks where openers often have a chance to get set before the spinners start to operate etc.

Not playing in difficult situations and conditions shows a lack of mental toughness and a running-away mentality. Would we be happy if Ashwin excuses himself every time there is a tour of Australia or SA ?  Or Kohli says he won't play in England ?

There is a difference as: 

1. When a fast bowler or spinner does not pick up wkts in unfavorable conditions it is not failing. On the other hand, if he picks up wkts, it is certainly appreciable. A bowler would have failed if he failed to perform in helpful conditions 

2. For a batsmen, if he scores a 80 on a pitch where the par score is 400, it is job done. On a pitch where the par score is 250, scoring a 50 is job done. He would have failed, if he scored 20 in the first case and 10 in the latter. 

So if a batsman is averaging 10 on surfaces where the par score is 200, we cannot say that "oh, many fast bowlers don't perform in sub-con but that is not held against them. However, this batsman avg 10 in such conditions and people think that it is a failure." As explained, it is not apples to apples. He is considered a failure because in general batsman probably avg 30 in such conditions and he is averaging 10. While a fast bowler performing in unhelpful conditions in sub con, often known as a graveyard of fast bowlers, would be like a batsman scoring a 80 odd on a 200 runs pitch. You cannot criticize a batsman for not scoring a 80 on a 200 run pitch, and similarly fast bowlers in their graveyards in sub-con

 

Your point on Ashwin and Kolhi is a different one. And we don't know if Ambrose or Garner did not play on purpose in sub-con. As for Lillee, he has been criticized for not playing in sub-con but if he believes he cannot add much value in those conditions, that is fine. He did help bowlers from the sub-con through MRF .... And as explained, that Ambrose and Garner did not play in India or Lillee skipped Ind's tour does not tie up with your original comment - "How is this point nor raised more often whereas cricket experts are so quick to quote Sehwag's average in SA ?" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by rett

[express bowling]

Steyn averages 22.66 in Asia and has played 20 of his 82 tests here. This is very good.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/47492.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

 

[zen]

Marshall has actually   played 19 test matches in Asia (  out of which 9 are in India )   and  averages  23.05 .

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/52419.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

Now that is what I call a true champion.

After seeing this...I would like to add him to my team in place of either McGrath or  Holding.

Marshall's first 3 tests in Ind in '78 were horrible. If you exclude those, his record gets even better! 

[express bowling]

There is a difference as: 

1. When a fast bowler or spinner does not pick up wkts in unfavorable conditions it is not failing. On the other hand, if he picks up wkts, it is certainly appreciable. A bowler would have failed if he failed to perform in helpful conditions 

2. For a batsmen, if he scores a 100 on a pitch where the par score is 400, it is job done. On a pitch where the par score is 250, scoring a 50 is job done. He would have failed, if he scored 20 in the first case and 10 in the latter. 

So if a batsman is averaging 10 on surfaces where the par score is 200, we cannot say that "oh, many fast bowlers don't perform in sub-con but that is not held against them. However, this batsman avg 10 in such conditions and people think that it is a failure." As explained, it is not apples to apples. He is considered a failure because in general batsman probably avg 30 in such conditions and he is averaging 10. While a fast bowler performing in unhelpful conditions in sub con, often known as a graveyard of fast bowlers, would be like a batsman scoring a 80 odd on a 200 runs pitch. 

 

Your point on Ashwin and Kolhi is a different one. And we don't know if Ambrose or Garner did not play on purpose in sub-con. As for Lillee, he has been criticized for not playing in sub-con but if he believes he cannot add much value in those conditions, that is fine. He did help bowlers for the sub-con through MRF .... And as explained, that Ambrose and Garner did not play in India or Lillee skipped Ind's tour does not tie up with your original comment - "How is this point nor raised more often whereas cricket experts are so quick to quote Sehwag's average in SA ?" 

 

 

If a bowler is unable to pick up sufficient wickets  it is considered as failing in test matches.  Giving away too many runs while picking up wickets would be considered average or ok performance , but not very good.  Both would result in high or higher averages. As simple as that. 

As I have said before...never coming to India in a long career is basically showing lack of mental strength to compete in tough conditions.  Running away from a " tough fight " is even worse than competing and failing.

We are looking for the greatest bowlers here...not just good ones.

Edited January 31, 2016 by express bowling

[zen]

If a bowler is unable to pick up sufficient wickets  it is considered as failing in test matches.  Giving away too many runs while picking up wickets would be considered average or ok performance , but not very good.  Both would result in high or higher averages. As simple as that. 

As I have said before...never coming to India in a long career is basically showing lack of mental strength to compete in tough conditions.

We are looking for the greatest bowlers here...not just good ones.

You are generalizing without giving any concrete numbers. The more relevant question is what avg could be considered as a failure in India?

When you are talking about great fast bowlers not coming to India on purpose, it is only Lillee .... that is an exception which could have  its reasons .... Touring the sub-con was not easy in those days. IIRC, not too long ago, Warne had exported Spaghetti from Aus when touring Ind  .... But considering that Lillee is a similar bowler to Hadlee, there are no reasons to doubt that if he had played more, his record would have got better in the sub-con 

And Sehwag's performance as an opener in SA is criticized for the following reasons - Link  .... Though stats don't show everything. I think Sehwag was just not in the best forms when he toured SA. I saw him get 100s on green pitches in various formats (in ODIs in NZ for e.g. when others did not get enough runs) so I don't doubt Sehwag's ability to score in difficult batting conditions when he is in good form. I have him as an opener in my AT11 on this thread   

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2016 by rett

[express bowling]

You are generalizing without giving any concrete numbers. The more relevant question is what avg could be considered as a failure in India?

When you are talking about great fast bowlers not coming to India on purpose, it is only Lillee .... that is an exception which could have  its reasons .... Touring the sub-con was not easy in those days. IIRC, not too long ago, Warne had exported Spaghetti from Aus when touring Ind  .... But considering that Lillee is a similar bowler to Hadlee, there are no reasons to doubt that if he had played more, his record would have got better in the sub-con 

 

 

 

Kapil Dev averages 26.49 and Javagal Srinath averages 26.61 in tests they played in India. None of them are considered by the cricketing fraternity as top pacers in international cricket. So...great pacers must do clearly better than them to be considered successes in India.

Wickets per match is also very important and generally 4 wickets per test would be considered above-average.

A decent sample size is important here.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/34105.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

There have been multiple instances of soft-minded players shying away from tough overseas tours.....it is not always as official as Lillee...but the intention becomes clear when a player never comes to a country for test matches in a long career. If they had the skill-set to succeed and would have succeeded  but still did not play...it is even worse because it just shows lack of mental toughness.

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

There is no ATG team without Steyn.

McGrath, Steyn, Marshall will be my 3 pacers.

SRT should be there at 4 too.

[rkt.india]

Gavaskar

Sehwag

Richards

SRT

Lara

Sobers

Gilly

Warne

Steyn

Marshall

McGrath

Sehwag too i s replaceble.

[express bowling]

@ rett

 

Sunil Gavaskar averages 70.2 in tests played in the West Indies. averages 51.11 in tests in Australia

That is why he is held in such high esteem by the cricketing fraternity. Succeeding against the bests of his time in their own country.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28794.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

Sachin Tendulkar averages 53.2 in tests played in the Australia. averages 54.31 in tests in England and 46.44 in tests in South Africa 

Again very good averages aginst the best teams in their country.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

Virat Kohli  averages 62.00 in tests played in the Australia. averages 68.00 in tests in  South Africa 

Superb against 2 of the best teams now...in their own country. His failures in England is a black mark.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

 

I would want similar bowlers in my test 11...who also perform in difficult situations in foreign countries.

Which is why I would pick Steyn and Marshall.....the 2 best best all-round, all-condition  fast bowlers ever. It looks like Roberts would come close too.  I don't want the escapists, the mentally weak and the condition dependent pacers.

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by express bowling

[biglebowski]

we patriotic indians wont accept any list which doesnt include sachin

[Mosher]

we patriotic indians wont accept any list which doesnt include sachin

Yeah, well, you know that's just, like, your opinion man.

[express bowling]

Walsh has played 17 tests in Asia ( including 7 in India )  and averages 20.53.  Very good indeed.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/53216.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

 

[zen]

Kapil Dev averages 26.49 and Javagal Srinath averages 26.61 in tests they played in India. None of them are considered by the cricketing fraternity as top pacers in international cricket. So...great pacers must do clearly better than them to be considered successes in India.

Wickets per match is also very important and generally 4 wickets per test would be considered above-average.

A decent sample size is important here.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/34105.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

There have been multiple instances of soft-minded players shying away from tough overseas tours.....it is not always as official as Lillee...but the intention becomes clear when a player never comes to a country for test matches in a long career. If they had the skill-set to succeed and would have succeeded  but still did not play...it is even worse because it just shows lack of mental toughness.

 

Both Kapil and Srinath have an avg of 27 after playing tons of games in Ind. Their spells include some excellent performances like Kapil's 9  vs. WI, Srinath's 8 vs. Pak and 6 vs SA.  Srinath was also known to give early breakthroughs as well

For non sub-con bowlers, it can be harder as one could get to play on surfaces where scores would be 550/6 dec, 458 all out, 535/8 dec, etc. resulting in high averages, and then Indian spinners bowling the opposition out twice. On the other hand, someone like Steyn could get to play on surfaces like the one at A'bad (2008) and Nagpur (2010), and not do much on "those" pitches. So for non-sub con bowlers, it is hard to judge them based on averages alone. For non-subcon bowlers, I would give them a couple of series atleast in Ind to judge them properly or give them the benefit of doubt 

Note if Marshall had played only one series in Ind, his first 3 tests, his record would not have been great in India. In his second series, Marshall picked up 33 wkts in 6 tests. For comparison, he probably had 3 wkts in 3 tests in his first series. Of those 33 wkts, he had Ind's top batsmen like Gavaskar, Vensarkar (who has an excellent record in Ind), etc. out many times 

We can treat Lillee as an exception. Other bowler from your list is Ambrose who has a great record of bowling in all kinds of surfaces including on flat pitches in WI so there are no reasons to think he would not have done well in Ind. His partner Walsh did well in Ind. In fact, it would have been an advantage to Ind to not have to face Ambrose and Walsh together esp. in 1994  

PS

Ind vs WI Mohali 1994 

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by rett

[biglebowski]

Yeah, well, you know that's just, like, your opinion man.

lol.. but its not my opinion , its our opinion ;-)

 

 

[express bowling]

Both Kapil and Srinath have an avg of 27 after playing tons of games in Ind. Their spells include some excellent performances like Kapil's 9  vs. WI, Srinath's 8 vs. Pak and 6 vs SA.  For non sub-con bowlers, it can be harder as one could get to play on surfaces where scores would be 550/6 dec, 458 all out, 535/8 dec, etc. resulting in high averages, and then Indian spinners bowling the opposition out twice. On the other hand, someone like Steyn could get to play on surfaces like the one at A'bad (2008) and Nagpur (2010), and not do much on "those" pitches. So for non-sub con bowlers, it is hard to judge them based on averages alone. For non-subcon bowlers, I would give them a couple of series in Ind to judge them properly.

Note if Marshall had played only one series in Ind, his first 3 tests, his record would not have been great in India. In his second series, Marshall picked up 33 wkts in 6 tests. For comparison, he probably had 3 wkts in 3 tests in his first series. Of those 33 wkts, he had Ind's top batsmen like Gavaskar, Vensarkar (who has an excellent record in Ind), etc. out many times 

We can treat Lillee as an exception. Other bowler from your list is Ambrose who has a great record of bowling in all kinds of surfaces including on flat pitches in WI so there are no reasons to think he would not have done well in Ind. His partner Walsh did well in Ind. In fact, it would have been an advantage to Ind to not have to face Ambrose and Walsh together  

 

 

 

 

Kapil averages 26.5 and Srinath averages 26.6 in India....not 27...that is a significant difference after so many matches. 

As you rightly pointed out.....Just one series often skews stats...which is why it is important to play all of them, if fit. In a long career, most of these bowlers got multiple opportunities to tour the sub-continent. Some took them and some did not.

I am not really talking from an Indian point of view when I am analyzing Ambrose, Lillee, Thomson or Garner. The non-inclination to play in tough conditions is not the sign of a true champion. It is not just the flat pitches...it is the heat, humidity, spicy food, huge crowd pressure in India...which many foreign sportsmen found it difficult to cope with. Just like Indians found it tough when it was too cold, moist cold winds blew, staying in bad guest houses ( happened to Indian players till the '80s when they toured NZ etc. ) 

If a player has to be considered a champion among champions...he has to overcome all this...not run away from it.

Does that mean Lillee or Ambrose were ordinary bowlers  ? ....not at all....but I would rate a Marshall, Steyn, Roberts and Walsh much higher due to their tougher mindsets.

Edited February 1, 2016 by express bowling