Practically Magic - 50 greatest test performances from the last 50 years (+ AT11 and Stats)

[zen]

 

Kapil averages 26.5 and Srinath averages 26.6 in India....not 27...that is a significant difference after so many matches. 

I rounded it to 27. A little easier to remember 

 

I am not really talking from an Indian point of view when I am analyzing Ambrose, Lillee, Thomson or Garner. The non-inclination to play in tough conditions is not the sign of a true champion. It is not just the flat pitches...it is the heat, humidity, spicy food, huge crowd pressure in India...which many foreign sportsmen found it difficult to cope with. Just like Indians found it tough when it was too cold, moist cold winds blew, staying in bad guest houses ( happened to Indian players till the '80s when they toured NZ etc. ) 

If a player has to be considered a champion among champions...he has to overcome all this...not run away from it.

But I believe that they have all played in sub-con where cultural aspects are similar so that point is not too applicable. And Ambrose has played ODIs in Ind too so there are likely to be more valid reasons to miss tests in India 

I have not watched Lillee, Thomson or Garner live, but those who have watched Ambrose would know that he was tough. In tests, I have seen him bowl some amazing spells including that 6 for 34 vs SA in Barbados in 1992, 7 for 1 vs Aus, etc. and the game changes in a matter of a few overs.  In fact, S Waugh became more famous for standing up to likes of Ambrose. When Ambrose was roaring, the test was not over even if you needed 20 with 5 wkts in hand 

Ind vs WI Mohali 1994 - Looking at what the likes of Benjamin did, i feel that Ind was probably lucky to not have to  face Ambrose + Walsh on that tour. If Ambrose had been there, who knows WI would have won the series instead of it being a 1-1 draw. And that 90 odd by Lara in the 3rd inng was just brilliant. From that inning, one could see that WI was intent on winning the game and turning things on India 

 

Does that mean Lillee or Ambrose were ordinary bowlers  ? ....not at all....but I would rate a Marshall, Steyn, Roberts and Walsh much higher due to their tougher mindsets.

I think that the bowlers that you have selected are all good. However, I feel that the methodology that you have employed to judge the mental toughness of some of the greatest bowlers is not accurate 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2016 by rett

[Mosher]

lol.. but its not my opinion , its our opinion ;-)

 

 

Lol I love that movie. One of my favorites. Jeffrey"The Dude" Lebowski  

[zen]

Gavaskar

Sehwag

Richards

SRT

Lara

Sobers

Gilly

Warne

Steyn

Marshall

McGrath

Sehwag too i s replaceble.

That is a nice 11 

In the top order - Both Gavaskar and Richards are very good players of fast bowling. Sehwag provides that mystery of what he could do on his day .... In the middle order - Lara and Sobers will get big 100s more often than not, and can do well in pressure situations and bat nicely with the tail 

Marshall could be moved to #8 as he was considered as a mini all-rounder and known for his fighting spirit. He is said to have batted with one hand due to a fractured thumb/finger 

PS Marshall batting with one hand

If I am not wrong, he also bowled in that game and picked up 7 for 53!

Edited February 1, 2016 by rett

[express bowling]

 

But I believe that they have all played in sub-con where cultural aspects are similar so that point is not too applicable. And Ambrose has played ODIs in Ind too so there are likely to be more valid reasons to miss tests in India 

 

 

Garner has played 3 out of 58 tests in the subcontinent,   Ambrose 6 tests out of 98,    Lillee 4 tests out of 70  and   Thomson 3 tests out of 51....they have all technically played in the sub-continent but as little as possible ......that is basically trying to avoid the sub-continent as much as they can....( and none of them have played a test in India. ) 

In these test matches Garner has taken 10 wickets from 3 tests,    Ambrose 18 wickets from 6 tests,     Lillee 6 wickets from 4 tests and          Thomson 3 wickets from 3 tests.     So..... ordinary performance for the 2 West Indians and bad performance  for the 2 Aussies .  I know the sample size is small but that is the precise reason they should have played more.

Ambrose has played some ODIs but the other 3 haved played very few.

 

I have not watched Lillee, Thomson or Garner live, but those who have watched Ambrose would know that he was tough. In tests, I have seen him bowl some amazing spells including that 6 for 34 vs SA in Barbados in 1992, 7 for 1 vs Aus, etc. and the game changes in a matter of a few overs.  In fact, S Waugh became more famous for standing up to likes of Ambrose. When Ambrose was roaring, the test was not over even if you needed 20 with 5 wkts in hand 

 

I think that the bowlers that you have selected are all good. However, I feel that the methodology that you have employed to judge the mental toughness of some of the greatest bowlers is not accurate 

 

 

I am not doubting the bowling skills of Ambrose , Garner or even Lillee. They were very good bowlers. They were fierce competitors in some conditions undoubtably....BUT

Our objective is.... selecting the best 3 test pacers in the last 50 years...and I would like them to be those who have actually succeeded all over the world...not just in countries which were more favourable to their craft. This is quite a standard parameter really and nothing utopian.

Edited February 2, 2016 by express bowling

[zen]

Our objective is.... selecting the best 3 test pacers in the last 50 years...and I would like them to be those who have actually succeeded all over the world...not just in countries which were more favourable to their craft. This is quite a standard parameter really and nothing utopian.

Inaccurately measuring mental toughness and careers based on if or how much a fast bowler played in Asia would unfairly judge some of the greatest fast bowlers .... And that too when the evaluation is done based on looking at the stats rather than based on actual information on the reasons as to why they may have not played as much as they would have liked to 

 

Below is the stat for non sub-con fast bowlers in sub-con:

LINK

Based on your parameters, someone can argue that:

a) Willis who has played  15 of his 90 tests in sub-con against each test playing country of his time and averages 23 there is a mentally tougher bowler and has a more comprehensive record (and thus better to judge for a place in an AT11)  than bowlers such as Ambrose, Holding (see point b), etc.

b) Holding whom you have in your 11 iirc has played only in India. So he was not mentally tough enough to play in Pak, a strong test side in the 80s. Since he ran away from playing in Pak, he also missed the opportunity to play (and perform) in all major countries so cannot be considered for a place in an AT 11 

c) Schultz is probably the most mentally tough bowler from the group as he played 45% of his tests in sub-con (and was successful there too) 

IF all of the above does not make sense, your method to measure mental toughness and judge careers is inaccurate 

Edited February 1, 2016 by rett

[express bowling]

Inaccurately measuring mental toughness and careers based on if or how much a fast bowler played in Asia would unfairly judge some of the greatest fast bowlers .... And that too when the evaluation is done based on looking at the stats rather than based on actual information on the reasons as to why they may have not played as much as they would have liked to 

 

Below is the stat for non sub-con fast bowlers in sub-con:

LINK

Based on your parameters, someone can argue that:

a) Willis who has played  15 of his 90 tests in sub-con against each test playing country of his time and averages 23 there is a mentally tougher bowler and has a more comprehensive record (and thus better to judge for a place in an AT11)  than bowlers such as Ambrose, Holding (see point b), etc.

b) Holding whom you have in your 11 iirc has played only in India. So he was not mentally tough enough to play in Pak, a strong test side in the 80s. Since he ran away from playing in Pak, he also missed the opportunity to play (and perform) in all major countries so cannot be considered for a place in an AT 11 

c) Schultz is probably the most mentally tough bowler from the group as he played 45% of his tests in sub-con (and was successful there too) 

IF all of the above does not make sense, your method to measure mental toughness and judge careers is inaccurate 

Your logic would have applied if it were a matter of just one series....when a player somehow misses most of the tours in unfavourable conditions over a full career then some intent must have been there.

Even if it is not due to lack of mental toughness...they were not sufficiently tested in unfavorable conditions.

Just think...if Ashwin had just played in Asia, with just one series maybe outside the sub-continent, then he would have looked like one of the best bowlers ever. 

I have kept Holding in my team to lend variety and steeper bounce to the attack, as all other pacers are on the shorter side.

 

The problem with your mock-analysis above is that you are just considering one factor here.

First and foremost you pick pacers who are greats...after that you choose those who are the more all-condition player among them.  

There may have been far mentality tougher tiger or lion hunters in the world but you do not pick them for test cricket all-time 11.     

Edited February 2, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

I wonder...if Sunil Gavaskar  had managed to miss almost all test tours to the West Indies or Australia or Sachin Tendulkar had managed to miss almost all test tours to Australia or South Africa ( specific reasons for missing them not known ) ....would they have been held in such high esteem by the cricketing fraternity and fans   ?       

[Ankit_sharma03]

My test 11 would be

 

Gavaskar

Sehwag /  Hayden  ( depending on where it is being played, Sehwag in the subcontinent definitely  )

Ponting

Tendulkar

Richards

Sobers   ( I have changed Imran after seeing his high bowling average in India )

Gilchrist

Warne

Marshall

Steyn

Holding /  Muralidharan   ( depending on the conditions )

 

Would have liked to take McGrath, Akram and  Garner  but don't know where.

 

 

 

My test 11 wud b

 

Hayden

Sehwag

Vivian richards

Lara

ABdevillars

Sangarkara(wk)/ Andy flower(very underrated guy)

Imran Khan(captain)

Warne 

Mcgrath

Wasim akram

Malcolm marshal/holding/thompson/ Saqlain ( wud b a tough pick among them, will hve saqlain for turning conditions. I wud love to have thompson for extra edge is speed provided.)

 

[zen]

Your logic would have applied if it were a matter of just one series....when a player somehow misses most of the tours in unfavourable conditions over a full career then some intent must have been there.

Even if it is not due to lack of mental toughness...they were not sufficiently tested in unfavorable conditions.

Just think...if Ashwin had just played in Asia, with just one series maybe outside the sub-continent, then he would have looked like one of the best bowlers ever. 

I have kept Holding in my team to lend variety and steeper bounce to the attack, as all other pacers are on the shorter side.

1. Only fast bowler who is known to have not toured on purpose is Lillee. Others are just speculation by you based on looking at the stats, a similar exercise to the mock stat analysis. And when it comes to Lillee, he is rated highly by fast bowlers and considered as a hero by bowlers such as McGrath 

2. No one is questioning Holding's place in an AT11 as he is a great bowler. Only question is that per your parameters, he should not be in your 11 as he did not play in Pakistan, a stronger test side in the 80s. And it is not as if there are no other bowlers who cannot lend steeper bounce to your bowling attack 

 

The problem with your mock-analysis above is that you are just considering one factor here.

First and foremost you pick pacers who are greats...after that you choose those who are the more all-condition player among them.  

There may have been far mentality tougher tiger or lion hunters in the world but you do not pick them for test cricket all-time 11.      

If a cricketer is considered as "great", he would automatically be someone who has the capability to perform in almost all conditions 

 

I wonder...if Sunil Gavaskar  had managed to miss almost all test tours to the West Indies or Australia or Sachin Tendulkar had managed to miss almost all test tours to Australia or South Africa ( specific reasons for missing them not known ) ....would they have been held in such high esteem by the cricketing fraternity and fans   ?    

In the 70s-early 80s, WI and Aus were the top sides. Many of the bowlers you are talking about played in 70s-90s when Ind was not considered as a top test side. Ind lost a few home test series in the 80s. SL was a minnow in tests. So your example would be like how xyz would have been rated if he had not toured say SL of 80s and early 90s, Zim of 90s/00s, SL and WI of today 

I see that you have Ponting at #3. Let me remind you that apart from 1  inning, his record in Ind, a strong team of his time, is not good. So besides Holding, who did not play in Pak which was a top test side in the 80, this is another inconsistency in your selection process - i.e. you have one player who actually has a bad record in a strong country of his time and another who did not play in country considered as a strong test side of his time 

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by rett

[zen]

My test 11 wud b

 

Hayden

Sehwag

Vivian richards

Lara

ABdevillars

Sangarkara(wk)/ Andy flower(very underrated guy)

Imran Khan(captain)

Warne 

Mcgrath

Wasim akram

Malcolm marshal/holding/thompson/ Saqlain ( wud b a tough pick among them, will hve saqlain for turning conditions. I wud love to have thompson for extra edge is speed provided.)

 

Not bad! ABDV can change the game with his bat, however he is still playing. Usually, I like to pick 11 from retired players

I like Flower, who was a solid player.  Sanga is good too, but avg around 40 as WK so that is something you may want to consider 

Imran and Akram, and Waqar on occasions, have bowled together but not at their respective peaks but still were good enough bowlers. As a group were not always able to bowl opposition out esp. with neutral umpires for e.g. in 1989 vs India. And in Aus too. Imran has a bowler had a great series in WI in late 80s. WI were still good but diminishing 

 

[express bowling]

 

In the 70s-early 80s, WI and Aus were the top sides. Many of the bowlers you are talking about played in 70s-90s when Ind was not considered as a top test side. Ind lost a few home test series in the 80s. SL was a minnow in tests. So your example would be like how xyz would have been rated if he had not toured say SL of 80s and early 90s, Zim of 90s/00s, SL and WI of today 

 

You are joking..right ?

India , during the 1970's...... won 7 test series ,  lost 8  and drew 1 test series . The oppositions were West indies, Australia, Pakistan, England and NZ. Even in the series they lost, some of the results were  2-3 and 1-2 against WI and 2-3 against Australia. We had the 4 great spinners in Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna and Venkat who were feared in the sub-continent. Also Kapil during the later stages and batsmen like Gavaskar, Vishwanath , Amarnath and Vengsarkar . We won 2 overseas test series in WI and England.

Between 1980  and 1986, India defeated England twice ( once in England ), drew 1-1 in Australia in 1980/81, won the World Cup in England  and the World Series Cup in Australia.

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by express bowling

[zen]

Ind AT 11 from those who have played in the last 50 years

* Gavaskar (Captain)

* Sehwag

* Dravid

* Tendulkar

* VVS

* Kapil

* Dhoni

* Kumble

* Srinath

* Zaheer

* Chandra 

[zen]

You are joking..right ?

India , during the 1970's...... won 7 test series ,  lost 8  and drew 1 test series . The oppositions were West indies, Australia, Pakistan, England and NZ. Even in the series they lost, some of the results were  2-3 and 1-2 against WI and 2-3 against Australia. We had the 4 great spinners in Bedi, Chandra, Prasanna and Venkat who were feared in the sub-continent. Also Kapil during the later stages and batsmen like Gavaskar, Vishwanath and Amarnath. We won 2 overseas test series in WI and England.

Between 1981 and 1986, India defeated England twice ( once in England ), won the World Cup in England  and the World Series Cup in Australia.

 When we talk about top sides, we are talking about the top 2-3 

1970s 

1980s 

1990s

1970s-1990s

 

1. Ind would have achieved a few successes and have had a few good years / run, but overall, it was not considered among the top test sides 

2. We are discussing tests not ODIs 

Edited February 2, 2016 by rett

[express bowling]

 

I see that you have Ponting at #3. Let me remind you that apart from 1  inning, his record in Ind, a strong team of his time, is not good. So besides Holding, who did not play in Pak which was a top test side in the 80, this is another inconsistency in your selection process - i.e. you have one player who actually has a bad record in a strong country of his time and another who did not play in country considered as a strong test side of his time 

 

Ponting averages 51.4 in India and 54.2 in the sub-continent

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

 

[zen]

Ponting averages 51.4 in India and 54.2 in the sub-continent

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

 

Lol appears as if you are looking at Strike rates 

[philcric]

Ponting averages 51.4 in India and 54.2 in the sub-continent

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/7133.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

 

Averages 26.48 in India in 14 test matches.

 

[express bowling]

 When we talk about top sides, we are talking about the top 2-3 

1970s 

1980s 

1990s

1970s-1990s

 

1. Ind would have achieved a few successes and have had a few good years / run, but overall, it was not considered among the top test sides 

2. We are discussing tests not ODIs 

You yourself have compared India of the '70s and early '80s with SL of the '80s and early '90s and Zimbabwe of the "90s and "00s.  You can't be more wrong. We won 47 % of the test series that were decided, in the "70s for 10 years . It was not a " few successes.

Secondly...we were talking about touring India and Pakistan ...and both were very strong test sides at home and feared because of their spinners and pitches.

When you win a World Cup..that team gets a lot of pedigree and reverence. In those days , it was even more so. 

I know... because i actually watched test series post the World Cup victory in 1983 , on TV.  All the commentators and cricket experts had an extra reverence even for the test side.

[express bowling]

Lol appears as if you are looking at Strike rates 

True. This is what happens when you type fast.      

I don't mind leaving out Ponting from the World 11.  He has a good average of 48 in SL though and averages 119 in the only test he has played in Pakistan.

I want to select players who have actually succeeded all over the world....and also in conditions difficult for them. Not missed playing there or played below average there. I want all condition players to represent the best team.

Edited February 2, 2016 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

Not bad! ABDV can change the game with his bat, however he is still playing. Usually, I like to pick 11 from retired players

I like Flower, who was a solid player.  Sanga is good too, but avg around 40 as WK so that is something you may want to consider 

Imran and Akram, and Waqar on occasions, have bowled together but not at their respective peaks but still were good enough bowlers. As a group were not always able to bowl opposition out esp. with neutral umpires for e.g. in 1989 vs India. And in Aus too. Imran has a bowler had a great series in WI in late 80s. WI were still good but diminishing 

 

For Sanga i had andy flower as well, a very very underrated player acc to me

plus wat abdv and andy or sanga brings on table is all round game as they can change the game within few overs with their aggresive play and also can bat whole day. N the way andy flower an abdv played the shot range they had it wud always be diff to have a field for them . I specially need such player considering the aggressive top 4 i have. 

Thats where imran is also vry Imp for me as he brings leadership, character and fight in the side and someone who leads from the front. Picking a team from diff era wud always be tough. 

I guess it wud b easy to pick a team post 90s for all of us

[express bowling]

 @rett

This thread has actually given me an opportunity to research many past great players and past performances. This has brought out many interesting facts and many great memories.

I have heard cricket commentary from 1983 and watched cricket from late 1983....very keenly i must say. I have watched many West Indian great fast bowlers bowl live...seen Richards, Lloyd,  Marshall, Holding and an old Roberts on the cricket field.  The aura that WI team had ...no other team has achieved in cricket ever after till date.  

This debate will never end...I want players in my team who have actually played and succeeded in various conditions ( not should have or would have )...I will stick to my view. You want players who have impressed you , irrespective of the countries they have actually played in...and you will stick to your view.

To each his own..... we are not actual selectors selecting an actual team   ....  and that is that.     

 

Edited February 2, 2016 by express bowling