Replace MS Dhoni as ODI Skipper at Your Own Peril: Gary Kirsten

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Its the process that matters. As i said, look at Australia/South Africa, where they have no problems keeping a team that is of a certain standard for decades. India has had a lot more high & low than Australia in the last 10 years and that has a lot to do with our inconsistent & unreasonable selection policies over cold, hard, fact-based selection approaches of Australia. 

You think India would EVER produce a Mike Hussey or Adam Voges ? No. Because we are all about 'rush the kid with potential before he's done squat, but ignore the 34 year old vet who's proven lots because we are all ageists'. 
First thing we ask when a 30-something gets selected is 'whats the point of a guy who will play only 4-5 years max?' instead of asking 'will this guy do more in the 4-5 years than our new Sachin Tendulkar wannabe 21 year old who is going to be crap for the next 4 years?' 

 

In Indian context, whether you pick a 22 year old or 32 year old, he is always going to take time to come to terms with international cricket. Our domestic cricket does not create ready made products even if someone has played 10 years of Ranji trophy, there is no guarantee he will deliver. We already saw that in case of Badrinath who looked like fish out of water on his debut. The reason is the lack of quality fast bowlers in our domestic setup. Yuvraj just bashed a 200 in Ranji trophy last round. Do you expect him to come and play likes of Dale Steyn, Starc, and Philander in test cricket?

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Again, check your facts. I just googled Kerala Ranji team and the most recent Ranji match featuring Kerala has Sanju playing as a batting specialist, with Nikhilesh Surendran as the designate keeper.

A guy who cannot hold down the job of a full-time keeper for his domestic side in the longer format, is not a 'potential wicketkeeping material' in any format for the international team. 

Wicketkeeping is about wicketkeeping first, not how good the batting is. Give me a wicketkeeper who averages 25 with the bat but can throw himself around like Boucher any day of the week over a guy who can average 40+ but misses basic stumping.

 

Please dont post without verifying anything. Check the link i posted that is from this season and is the first Ranji trophy game Kerala played this season. Why are you googling? Here are the links from cricinfo and there is no Surendran and these are the most recent games. Will post scorecards from last years game too. He was captain and WK last year. 

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/series/1053433.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053525.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053525.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053559.html

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

In Indian context, whether you pick a 22 year old or 32 year old, he is always going to take time to come to terms with international cricket. Our domestic cricket does not create ready made products even if someone has played 10 years of Ranji trophy, there is no guarantee he will deliver. We already saw that in case of Badrinath who looked like fish out of water on his debut. The reason is the lack of quality fast bowlers in our domestic setup. Yuvraj just bashed a 200 in Ranji trophy last round. Do you expect him to come and play likes of Dale Steyn, Starc, and Philander in test cricket?

You talk as if every single debutant from Australia or South Africa are international material. There is always a risk that players don't make the jump from domestic cricket to international cricket. Happens in every sport where a certain % of players do great at a level and fail to produce at a higher level league. 

So instead of moaning about why certain guy should/should not get a chance based on nebulous concepts of 'talent' and a distinct bias against older players, the selection problems can be largely eliminated by improving the domestic set-up.

Last i checked, South Africa has the same problems with spinners as India has with pacers - they don't see enough of it and on raging turners, 99% Saffies are sitting ducks like 99% of Indians are on green tops . Last i checked, South Africa isn't thrusting any pimply-faced kid who smashes a century against a spinner on an A tour as the next best thing since sliced cheese and Clamour for dropping a regular on their test squad.

 

They follow the tried and tested method of 'excel at domestic cricket or be a generational talent to skip the process' . and they are a whole lot more successful than us as a team in the long run.

 

 

[rkt.india]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901709.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901729.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901751.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901777.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901827.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901853.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901873.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2015-16/engine/match/901899.html

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Please dont post without verifying anything. Check the link i posted that is from this season and is the first Ranji trophy game Kerala played this season. Why are you googling? Here are the links from cricinfo and there is no Surendran and these are the most recent games. Will post scorecards from last years game too. He was captain and WK last year. 

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/series/1053433.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053525.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053525.html

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ranji-trophy-2016-17/engine/match/1053559.html

In your last link, which is the most recent, its mr N. Surendran who is the Kerala keeper, Sanju is batting at #4. 

Not qualified.

 

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Its the process that matters. As i said, look at Australia/South Africa, where they have no problems keeping a team that is of a certain standard for decades. India has had a lot more high & low than Australia in the last 10 years and that has a lot to do with our inconsistent & unreasonable selection policies over cold, hard, fact-based selection approaches of Australia. 

You think India would EVER produce a Mike Hussey or Adam Voges ? No. Because we are all about 'rush the kid with potential before he's done squat, but ignore the 34 year old vet who's proven lots because we are all ageists'. 
First thing we ask when a 30-something gets selected is 'whats the point of a guy who will play only 4-5 years max?' instead of asking 'will this guy do more in the 4-5 years than our new Sachin Tendulkar wannabe 21 year old who is going to be crap for the next 4 years?' 

 

We are selecting players like Kedar Jadhav now, aged 31. Even a Manish Pandey is getting his break around age 27.

 

I would say that our selection process has matured over the years.  Picking people after they perform for our A team is actually a good process.

 

Age should not be a factor but the stage of development of a player should be the key.  Whether he is aged 21 , 25, 31 or 34 should not be the parameter for selection.

 

Our selection process has not been the only factor for the fluctuating quality of our team over the years ( 1) Our low quality ranji Trophy teams and very few zonal matches played a big part in not preparing players sufficiently via our domestic system. only players with exceptional talent were those who survived at international level.  (b)  Our system could not develop sufficient number of wicket taking bowlers over the years and that has been the biggest difference with Australia and South Africa.

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

In your last link, which is the most recent, its mr N. Surendran who is the Kerala keeper, Sanju is batting at #4. 

Not qualified.

 

 

From the links provided, it is seen that Samson has been the keeper for 9 out of the 11 FC matches in the last 2 seasons.

 

he has been the keeper in all the 6 one day games on the A tour to Australia.

 

That means, he is a regular keeper nowadays.

 

Also, in ODIs, the keeping skills required are generally a little less than test matches and the batting skills are very important.

 

We are NOT discussing a keeper for test matches  here and are looking for an aggressive-batsman + regular keeper....not the best available keeper in the country.

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

You talk as if every single debutant from Australia or South Africa are international material. There is always a risk that players don't make the jump from domestic cricket to international cricket. Happens in every sport where a certain % of players do great at a level and fail to produce at a higher level league. 

So instead of moaning about why certain guy should/should not get a chance based on nebulous concepts of 'talent' and a distinct bias against older players, the selection problems can be largely eliminated by improving the domestic set-up.

Last i checked, South Africa has the same problems with spinners as India has with pacers - they don't see enough of it and on raging turners, 99% Saffies are sitting ducks like 99% of Indians are on green tops . Last i checked, South Africa isn't thrusting any pimply-faced kid who smashes a century against a spinner on an A tour as the next best thing since sliced cheese and Clamour for dropping a regular on their test squad.

 

They follow the tried and tested method of 'excel at domestic cricket or be a generational talent to skip the process' . and they are a whole lot more successful than us as a team in the long run.

 

 

when there is no guarantee who will succeed and who not whether some one is a 22 years old or 32 and if both are going to take time to come to terms with international cricket then why not chose a 22 year old who might struggle for 3 years but then will have a long career rather than a 32 year old who will struggle for 3 years and by the time, he gets success, he becomes too old and offers nothing. Regarding South Africa,. Most of their successful cricketers are picked early. Dale Steyn Debuted at 21 in 2004. Smith debuted at 22, ABDV debuted at 20, De Kock debuted at 20, Rabada debuted at 19. Morne Morkel debuted at 22. Hashim Amla Debuted at 21. JP Duminy made his ODI debut in 2004 at 20.

 

I would go on and say that players who debuts late are highly unlikely to succeed. They are mostly exceptions, not norms. Only highly successful players that come to my mind are Michael Hussey and Misbah but even Mishbah had his ODI debut in 2002, 14 years back and likes of Hussey and Voges could not make their debuts earlier because Aussies had such a strong batting line that there was no space. Even someone like Brad Hodge had to sit out after scoring a 200. Michael Clarke debuted ahead of likes of Hussey at 22 and his domestic record was at best modest, averaging 36 when so many of their domestic batsmen averaging 50 plus.

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

In your last link, which is the most recent, its mr N. Surendran who is the Kerala keeper, Sanju is batting at #4. 

Not qualified.

 

yeah just pick up one game and forget others where he had kept wickets. I have given whole list from last year till now and most of them have Samson keeping.

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

From the links provided, it is seen that Samson has been the keeper for 9 out of the 11 FC matches in the last 2 seasons.

 

he has been the keeper in all the 6 one day games on the A tour to Australia.

 

That means, he is a regular keeper nowadays.

 

Also, in ODIs, the keeping skills required are generally a little less than test matches and the batting skills are very important.

 

We are NOT discussing a keeper for test matches  here and are looking for an aggressive-batsman + regular keeper....not the best available keeper in the country.

And that is the problem. When you are looking for a keeper who can't even be a lock on his own state side at the longer format, he is not a keeper. he is a wanna-be keeper who still has a VERY LONG WAY TO GO to keep to world class bowlers.

 

And i don't care if its test matches or not, keeping is not a joke job. One dayers or tests, you need a keeper who is a keeper first and can be considered one of the best in the country based on his keeping skills. 

 

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

yeah just pick up one game and forget others where he had kept wickets. I have given whole list from last year till now and most of them have Samson keeping.

You ever seen a match where Mongia/Boucher/Saha/Dhoni/Gilchrist/Healy etc. were playing but not designated keeper ?

One match or not, there is another match from last year where Samson was not the designate keeper. 

We simply cannot pick a guy as India keeper who is not a keeper for his own state side 100% of the time. That is the bottomline. 

 

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

And that is the problem. When you are looking for a keeper who can't even be a lock on his own state side at the longer format, he is not a keeper. he is a wanna-be keeper who still has a VERY LONG WAY TO GO to keep to world class bowlers.

 

And i don't care if its test matches or not, keeping is not a joke job. One dayers or tests, you need a keeper who is a keeper first and can be considered one of the best in the country based on his keeping skills. 

 

You must have not seen Samson keep recently... otherwise you would not have said what you are saying now. He keeps quite well these days.

 

It does not matter what you care about....modern ODI teams cannot afford to have a player who is great at keeping but is a poor ODI batsman.

A good keeper and a good ODI batsman is better than a great keeper and a bad ODI batsman.

[Muloghonto]

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

when there is no guarantee who will succeed and who not whether some one is a 22 years old or 32 and if both are going to take time to come to terms with international cricket then why not chose a 22 year old who might struggle for 3 years but then will have a long career rather than a 32 year old who will struggle for 3 years and by the time, he gets success, he becomes too old and offers nothing. Regarding South Africa,. Most of their successful cricketers are picked early. Dale Steyn Debuted at 21 in 2004. Smith debuted at 22, ABDV debuted at 20, De Kock debuted at 20, Rabada debuted at 19. Morne Morkel debuted at 22. Hashim Amla Debuted at 21. JP Duminy made his ODI debut in 2004 at 20.

 

I would go on and say that players who debuts late are highly unlikely to succeed. They are mostly exceptions, not norms. Only highly successful players that come to my mind are Michael Hussey and Misbah but even Mishbah had his ODI debut in 2002, 14 years back and likes of Hussey and Voges could not make their debuts earlier because Aussies had such a strong batting line that there was no space. Even someone like Brad Hodge had to sit out after scoring a 200. Michael Clarke debuted ahead of likes of Hussey at 22 and his domestic record was at best modest, averaging 36 when so many of their domestic batsmen averaging 50 plus.

I see no reason to assume that a 22 year old is going to adapt at the same rate as a 32 year old. A 32 year old has had over a decade of being a professional, the 22 year old still remembers the days he'd need his mom to do his laundry.

That is where the entire faulty premise is. 

And i don't care how long their careers are. Who cares if one guy's career is 20 years long versus another's who is 3 years long ? we care about winning and performances win games. Not who's got the longer career. 

And your assessment is wrong, since 90% of Australians who've succeeded in test cricket are ones who've made their debuts after the age of 25. 

Mike Hussey, Misbah, Voges, Hodge, Gillchrist - the options are plenty where people have show up past the age of 25-26 and hammered out a decent career.

 

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

You ever seen a match where Mongia/Boucher/Saha/Dhoni/Gilchrist/Healy etc. were playing but not designated keeper ?

One match or not, there is another match from last year where Samson was not the designate keeper. 

We simply cannot pick a guy as India keeper who is not a keeper for his own state side 100% of the time. That is the bottomline. 

 

Yes, i have seen Dhoni not keeping in domestic cricket. Take an example of Srilanka, they play 2-3 keepers simultaneously as batsmen, Chandimal, Kushal Parera and the new guy Dickwella but only one can keep, so, others have to do ground duty and one who is the most uncomfortable doing ground fielding will keep wickets. Because being a keeper, you are not that habitual fielding and throwing long distances. Same is the case here with Samson. He is apt at both keeping and fielding. 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, express bowling said:

You must have not seen Samson keep recently... otherwise you would not have said what you are saying now. He keeps quite well these days.

 

It does not matter what you care about....modern ODI teams cannot afford to have a player who is great at keeping but is a poor ODI batsman.

A good keeper and a good ODI batsman is better than a great keeper and a bad ODI batsman.

modern ODI teams cannot afford to have a keeper who drops catches and misses stumping when bowlers struggle to keep RPO less than 5.5 and struggle to take more than 5 wickets/match till the slogs start, much much more than a keeper who is a crappy bat.

I don't need to see Samson to realize that he isn't keeping material if he can play matches as a specialist batsman with another dude keeping for the state side, period.

Or else, like i said, find me even ONE example of good international keepers who've played domestic matches as not designated keepers. You won't find any.

A good keeper and a good batsman is NOT better than an excellent keeper who is an average batsman. 

 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Yes, i have seen Dhoni not keeping in domestic cricket. Take an example of Srilanka, they play 2-3 keepers simultaneously as batsmen, Chandimal, Kushal Parera and the new guy Dickwella but only one can keep, so, others have to do ground duty and one who is the most uncomfortable doing ground fielding will keep wickets. Because being a keeper, you are not that habitual fielding and throwing long distances. Same is the case here with Samson. He is apt at both keeping and fielding. 

I meant domestic cricket. Yes, sometimes in international cricket it can happen- Gilchrist has played with Healy being the designate. because in international teams, sometimes you get 2-3 keepers who are good enough to bat for the team but not 6 specialist bats who are all better than those 2-3 keepers.

But such an issue does not arise in domestic cricket and if it does, that keeper has huge question marks around them.

Like i said, find me a single case in domestic cricket where the 'international grade keeper' is not the automatic 100% time designated keeper for his domestic side. 

 

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

modern ODI teams cannot afford to have a keeper who drops catches and misses stumping when bowlers struggle to keep RPO less than 5.5 and struggle to take more than 5 wickets/match till the slogs start, much much more than a keeper who is a crappy bat.

I don't need to see Samson to realize that he isn't keeping material if he can play matches as a specialist batsman with another dude keeping for the state side, period.

Or else, like i said, find me even ONE example of good international keepers who've played domestic matches as not designated keepers. You won't find any.

A good keeper and a good batsman is NOT better than an excellent keeper who is an average batsman. 

 

 

So, you have not seen Samson keep and still  forming strong opinions about his keeping skills.   Sort of sums up everything.

 

A person may not keep in one odd match due to some mild discomfort while kneeling down etc.   Hardly a basis for forming an informed opinion.

 

Samson kept in all the A team one day games and that would not have happened if he were a poor keeper.

Edited November 4, 2016 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, Muloghonto said:

I meant domestic cricket. Yes, sometimes in international cricket it can happen- Gilchrist has played with Healy being the designate. because in international teams, sometimes you get 2-3 keepers who are good enough to bat for the team but not 6 specialist bats who are all better than those 2-3 keepers.

But such an issue does not arise in domestic cricket and if it does, that keeper has huge question marks around them.

Like i said, find me a single case in domestic cricket where the 'international grade keeper' is not the automatic 100% time designated keeper for his domestic side. 

 

Thing is Samson has been a keeper all his age group cricket. We have seen worse keepers playing for India likes of Parthiv Patel and Ratra. Samson is not a 100% designated in his team because he has played as a specialist batsman for Kerala too, but does not mean he is not a keeper. He can play both roles as keeper/batsman or just as a batsman according to the team's need. Also, keeping is an ever-improving trade. It is not like Samson is 25 plus years old and just started keeping like Dravid and Uthappa have done. He was always keeper who because of his batting started playing as a batsman like Ab De Villiars did for SA. Chandmal does for SL.

[Muloghonto]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

So, you have not seen Samson keep and still  forming strong opinions about his keeping skills.   Sort of sums up everything.

 

A person can not keep in one odd match due to some mild discomfort while kneeling down etc.   Hardly a basis for forming an informed opinion.

Samson kept in all the A team one day games and that would not have happened if he were a poor keeper.

Yes, a guy who is being touted as a replacement for an all-time-great keeper who is still churning out A1 keeping performance and decent batting, when this guy cannot be the regular designated keeper for his side tells us everything.

 

As i said, give me examples of an international grade keeper not being designated keeper for a domestic match. Like even once. And if Samson was a good keeper, he would've kept in the FC matches for India-A as well. He did not. It means Naman Ojha is a better keeper option at this point.

Simple as that.

 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Thing is Samson has been a keeper all his age group cricket. We have seen worse keepers playing for India likes of Parthiv Patel and Ratra. Samson is not a 100% designated in his team because he has played as a specialist batsman for Kerala too, but does not mean he is not a keeper. He can play both roles as keeper/batsman or just as a batsman according to the team's need. Also, keeping is an ever-improving trade. It is not like Samson is 25 plus years old and just started keeping like Dravid and Uthappa have done. He was always keeper who because of his batting started playing as a batsman like Ab De Villiars did for SA. Chandmal does for SL.

Then slot him in the middle as a specialist bat- IF he is good enough for that job. But unless we are talking about a 'this guy can be a 55 average batsman, if it wasnt for the toil of keeping', there is no comparison with ABDV or any other. 

Chandimal doesnt play domestic cricket as a specialist bat. if you play domestic cricket as specialist bat, it means one thing- you are not the best keeper in the XI. And someone who is not the best keeper in their XI at domestic cricket, is not good enough to be keeper for India XI.