Would you pick Dhoni over Mccullum or Sangakkara as your keeper-batsmen in tests?

[maniac]

Always been curious. I mean Gilchrist will be a hands down name in everyone's All time X1.

 

If you had to pick a second X1 it is obviously Dhoni if your criteria is to pick a player who has played his career as an out and out keeper.

 

Now the arguments often made against Sanga and Mccullum are they were not full time keepers in tests which is true. Even though they were natural full-time keepers in LOI's and not make-shift ones like say a Rahul Dravid .

 

When you look at Sanga or Mccullum's stats when they played as designated  keepers it is not too bad. Also they have played enough games as the designated keeper for us to understand enough ,that they had it in them to be full-time keepers throughout their careers.

 

Sanga

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/50710.html?class=2;filter=advanced;keeper=1;template=results;type=allround

 

Mccullum

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/37737.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

 

 

Now as test batsmen-Sanga is way ahead of Dhoni or Mccullum and that is a no brainer.

 

As a keeper alone I think Dhoni is the best among the 3,even though Mccullum was extremely athletic....Sanga kept a lot to Mendis/Murali in LOI's so I am assuming he is pretty adequate as a keeper as well.

 

Now the case we can make for Mccullum is I personally think he was a better batsman in tests and more of an impact player in that format than Dhoni and as a keeper I think he was better than Sanga but maybe a little below Dhoni(debatable).

 

Now coming to my question we usually tend to pick Dhoni only because he played his entire career as a keeper but if you had an option between the 3 and you had to slot one of them as your keeper-bat who would it be?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by maniac

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, maniac said:

Always been curious. I mean Gilchrist will be a hands down name in everyone's All time X1.

 

If you had to pick a second X1 it is obviously Dhoni if your criteria is to pick a player who has played his career as an out and out keeper.

 

Now the arguments often made against Sanga and Mccullum are they were not full time keepers in tests which is true. Even though they were natural full-time keepers in LOI's and not make-shift ones like say a Rahul Dravid .

 

When you look at Sanga or Mccullum's stats when they played as designated  keepers it is not to bad. Also they have played enough games as the designated keeper for us to understand enough that they had it in them to be full-time keepers throughout their careers.

 

Sanga

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/50710.html?class=2;filter=advanced;keeper=1;template=results;type=allround

 

Mccullum

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/37737.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

 

 

Now as test batsmen-Sanga is way ahead of Dhoni or Mccullum and that is a no brainer.

 

As a keeper alone I think Dhoni is the best among the 3,even though Mccullum was extremely athletic....Sanga kept a lot to Mendis/Murali in LOI's so I am assuming he is pretty adequate as a keeper as well.

 

Now the case we can make for Mccullum is I personally think he was a better batsman in tests and more of an impact player in that format than Dhoni and as a keeper I think he was better than Sanga but maybe a little below Dhoni(debatable).

 

Now coming to my question we usually tend to pick Dhoni only because he played his entire career as a keeper but if you had an option between the 3 and you had to slot one of them as your keeper-bat who would it be?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sanga was not a good keeper. He wasn't bad, but he was pretty average - not like Prasanna Jaya, or Kalu.

 

In all time XIs, there are many, many other keepers who can be chosen ahead of Dhoni in Tests - for e.g. Andy Flower.

 

Between these 3, I'd pick Sanga since he was a so-so keeper but a good batsman (as pure batsman, he was a master of course).

[Vilander]

As a batsman for all surfaces . Bmac. 

 

keeping Dhoni = Bmac > Sanga.

 

Batting alone - Sanga.

 

Really tough call.

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Sanga was not a good keeper. He wasn't bad, but he was pretty average - not like Prasanna Jaya, or Kalu.

 

In all time XIs, there are many, many other keepers who can be chosen ahead of Dhoni in Tests - for e.g. Andy Flower.

 

Between these 3, I'd pick Sanga since he was a so-so keeper but a good batsman (as pure batsman, he was a master of course).

Actually forgot Flower but these 3 are more contemporary and ended their careers too around the same time.

 

Sanga though kept to Murali in tests for a while and in ODI's to Murali,Malinga,Mendis and all those unorthodox Srilankan bowlers.

 

Mccullum was definitely the most athletic of the 3 from what I saw

 

But Dhoni is probably the best keeper to spin bowling I have ever seen even though was mediocre against fast bowling

[Vilander]

I think Gilly is a given in all time. Flower is more Sanga/bmac/Dhoni level to be honest as a complete batsman + keeper.

[Vilander]

Sangakara should be considered as a batsman, its just that he kept for SL -- did he keep in tests btw ?

[Vijy]

10 minutes ago, maniac said:

Actually forgot Flower but these 3 are more contemporary and ended their careers too around the same time.

 

Sanga though kept to Murali in tests for a while and in ODI's to Murali,Malinga,Mendis and all those unorthodox Srilankan bowlers.

 

Mccullum was definitely the most athletic of the 3 from what I saw

 

But Dhoni is probably the best keeper to spin bowling I have ever seen even though was mediocre against fast bowling

In the early days, Sanga was not good against keeping to spinners, but he improved. I'd rate Dhoni better as a keeper. In terms of stats, Sanga really blossomed as a batsman only after giving up gloves. He was this generation's Clyde Walcott - both were great batsman who unfortunately had to keep wickets for some period of time, and whose batting avg improved greatly after giving up gloves.

 

In all batsman-keepers from the 1990s, excluding Gil, I'd still not place Dhoni in the top 3 (combining both disciplines) in Tests. In ODIs, it's a completely diff story of course... best ever full-time keeper batsman in the game's history.

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Sangakara should be considered as a batsman, its just that he kept for SL -- did he keep in tests btw ?

Yes in 48 tests

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Sangakara should be considered as a batsman, its just that he kept for SL -- did he keep in tests btw ?

He kept in Tests, but not for majority of career, and was not that successful... avg above 40 I think, but not comparable to later exploits with the bat.

 

As for Flower, he was far better with the bat than BMac and Dhoni, since he was more a proper top-order batsman (and not attacking middle order bat). His keeping was safe I guess, although he didn't have to keep against any Test level bowlers (apart from Streak-er).

Edited December 9, 2016 by Vijy

[maniac]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

In the early days, Sanga was not good against keeping to spinners, but he improved. I'd rate Dhoni better as a keeper. In terms of stats, Sanga really blossomed as a batsman only after giving up gloves. He was this generation's Clyde Walcott - both were great batsman who unfortunately had to keep wickets for some period of time, and whose batting avg improved greatly after giving up gloves.

 

In all batsman-keepers from the 1990s, excluding Gil, I'd still not place Dhoni in the top 3 (combining both disciplines) in Tests. In ODIs, it's a completely diff story of course... best ever full-time keeper batsman in the game's history.

So just curious Gilly,Flower,who else?

 

As I said Dhoni would rank pretty high if we go by careers of players who were keepers from beginning to end but the point here is say If I have a situation to strengthen my batting why would I chose Dhoni over Sanga when I know for a fact that Sanga can be adequate with the gloves and I get a world class batsman to add...but if it came down to Dhoni and Dravid...I would obviously pick Dhoni as my keeper-bat because Dhoni as a keeper is leagues ahead of Dravid.

 

Similarly I can make a similar case for Mccullum too.

Edited December 9, 2016 by maniac

[maniac]

I picked Mccullum in tests...even though Baz kept for only half of his test career...I think he was equal to DHoni as a keeper...Dhoni the better keeper to spinners,Baz the more athletic one but it evens out....As Test bats I Don't see a huge difference in terms of stats even though Baz has a test 300 but Baz was more of an impact player in tests...I think Baz is marginally ahead on that front.

[Cricketics]

McCullum was unreliable even though a brilliant batsman. His shot in world cup final was poor, much defined his career. Showing aggression is one thing but being consistent is another.

 

Dhoni was the best ODI player for not only India but among all the players in the world.  His ability to switch gears and being a better runner between the wicket among all three is what makes him a far superiror ODi keeper natsman than anyone.

 

Chase master and my pick hence would be Dhoni. Also down the line, I can be assured he is not going to demand the team management to just play as a batsman and would continue to keep wicket's for the team's cause. 

 

My choice is the selffless Dhoni. 

[sandeep]

Good to bring Flower into the discussion - he was among a bunch of quality players that came through the Zimboks circa 2000.  They were a decent team back then.  

 

But Sanga should be head and shoulders above BMac - BMac gets a lot of love for obvious reasons, but head to head, its not that close.  Dhoni's keeping and batting is quality in Asia - his keeping was poor in England and batting was pretty average, so Sanga over him without any hesitation.  Sanga's the most annoying keeper of the bunch as well, but if you are picking him for your team, then I guess that's an asset.

[maniac]

Just now, Cricketics said:

McCullum was unreliable even though a brilliant batsman. His shot in world cup final was poor, much defined his career. Showing aggression is one thing but being consistent is another.

 

Dhoni was the best ODI player for not only India but among all the players in the world.  His ability to switch gears and being a better runner between the wicket among all three is what makes him a far superiror ODi keeper natsman than anyone.

 

Chase master and my pick hence would be Dhoni. Also down the line, I can be assured he is not going to demand the team management to just play as a batsman and would continue to keep wicket's for the team's cause. 

 

My choice is the selffless Dhoni. 

 

ODI's I don't think there is a doubt...I would pick Dhoni too over Sanga any day for sure and even ahead of Mccullum but I am asking about tests.

[Cricketics]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

ODI's I don't think there is a doubt...I would pick Dhoni too over Sanga any day for sure and even ahead of Mccullum but I am asking about tests.

Is that even a question then?  Sangakara is miles ahead of all. Both Sanga and Mccullum gave keeping when more responsibility came to them. But still Sanga miles ahead of all since.

 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Good to bring Flower into the discussion - he was among a bunch of quality players that came through the Zimboks circa 2000.  They were a decent team back then.  

 

But Sanga should be head and shoulders above BMac - BMac gets a lot of love for obvious reasons, but head to head, its not that close.  Dhoni's keeping and batting is quality in Asia - his keeping was poor in England and batting was pretty average, so Sanga over him without any hesitation.  Sanga's the most annoying keeper of the bunch as well, but if you are picking him for your team, then I guess that's an asset.

You are going purely in terms of Sanga as a batsmen...would you pick Dravid as a keeper bat if you had Dhoni or Mccullum at your disposal...not Dravid the batsmen,Dravid the keeper bat?

 

But if Sanga is even 80% of the keeper Dhoni or Mccullum is than sure Sanga all the way as no one doubts his test credentials as a bat.

 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, Cricketics said:

Is that even a question then?  Sangakara is miles ahead of all. Both Sanga and Mccullum gave keeping when more responsibility came to them. But still Sanga miles ahead of all since.

 

 

Yes Sanga the batsman....again is Sanga the keeper-bat in tests worth the gamble ahead of Baz or Dhoni ?

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

So just curious Gilly,Flower,who else?

 

As I said Dhoni would rank pretty high if we go by careers of players who were keepers from beginning to end but the point here is say If I have a situation to strengthen my batting why would I chose Dhoni over Sanga when I know for a fact that Sanga can be adequate with the gloves and I get a world class batsman to add...but if it came down to Dhoni and Dravid...I would obviously pick Dhoni as my keeper-bat because Dhoni as a keeper is leagues ahead of Dravid.

 

Similarly I can make a similar case for Mccullum too.

QDK for one is my third pick - early days, but he's already on his way there.

 

Many of the present-day batsman-keepers are also impressive in terms of their batting records. Prior started poorly with gloves and bat, but then became very reliable player.

 

If you had to strengthen batting for a one-off Test, I'd say: Flower/Sanga/ABDV

For just pure keeping: Healey

(Gilly excluded here for reasons already covered by OP)

 

People tend to look at Dhoni's high-ish Test avg, and think that he nearly averaged 40. But, the fact is that he was very ineffective outside SC. Apart from Eng, I cannot remember any matches where he played a major role.

[Vijy]

9 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

McCullum was unreliable even though a brilliant batsman. His shot in world cup final was poor, much defined his career. Showing aggression is one thing but being consistent is another.

 

Dhoni was the best ODI player for not only India but among all the players in the world.  His ability to switch gears and being a better runner between the wicket among all three is what makes him a far superiror ODi keeper natsman than anyone.

 

Chase master and my pick hence would be Dhoni. Also down the line, I can be assured he is not going to demand the team management to just play as a batsman and would continue to keep wicket's for the team's cause. 

 

My choice is the selffless Dhoni. 

But this thread is not for ODIs. I don't think that many people will question whether Dhoni is the greatest ever "regular" batsman-keeper in ODIs.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Vijy

[maniac]

Just now, Vijy said:

QDK for one is my third pick - early days, but he's already on his way there.

 

Many of the present-day batsman-keepers are also impressive in terms of their batting records. Prior started poorly with gloves and bat, but then became very reliable player.

 

If you had to strengthen batting for a one-off Test, I'd say: Flower/Sanga/ABDV

For just pure keeping: Healey

(Gilly excluded here for reasons already covered by OP)

 

People tend to look at Dhoni's high-ish Test avg, and think that he nearly averaged 40. But, the fact is that he was very ineffective outside SC. Apart from Eng, I cannot remember any matches where he played a major role.

Agree also what works against Dhoni is his keeping against fast bowling....he would not dive for catches in first slip or between keeper-first slip which is basic tenet of keeping...you have the gloves,you go for catches within your radar....standing way back to 130+ bowling....As a keeper against Spin he was on a different plane altogether.....Mcullum was definitely the most athletic of the 3 I mentioned