Would you pick Dhoni over Mccullum or Sangakkara as your keeper-batsmen in tests?

[Cricketics]

36 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Sanga was not a good keeper. He wasn't bad, but he was pretty average - not like Prasanna Jaya, or Kalu.

 

In all time XIs, there are many, many other keepers who can be chosen ahead of Dhoni in Tests - for e.g. Andy Flower.

 

Between these 3, I'd pick Sanga since he was a so-so keeper but a good batsman (as pure batsman, he was a master of course).

Talking about Flower, I haven't seen a better sweep shot player or even someone who can pull off reverse sweep on regular basis like how Andy Flower would do. Yes in modern day cricket, many players play reverse sweep, switch hit etc and can clear the fence  many times , but Flower was magical. He would sweep and reverse sweep in toughest of situations with great perfection. Some of his knocks against us, the ones in Sharjah etc were brilliant. 

 

One of the greats of the game. 

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Yes Sanga the batsman....again is Sanga the keeper-bat in tests worth the gamble ahead of Baz or Dhoni ?

ABDV is another keeper-bat who did it part-time and finished with so-so stats.

[express bowling]

In test matches, I will pick Andy Flower after Gilchrist.

 

In ODIs, I will pick Dhoni as a pure batsman in any World XI  with Gilly as the keeper.

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

But this thread is not for ODIs. I don't think that many people will question whether Dhoni is the greatest ever "regular" batsman-keeper in ODIs.

Manaic forgot to mention test there. Hence I picked Dhoni. Why would you even have Dhoni in tedt wicket keeper poll as he was an average batsman in test?  Options are ridiculous. 

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

You are going purely in terms of Sanga as a batsmen...would you pick Dravid as a keeper bat if you had Dhoni or Mccullum at your disposal...not Dravid the batsmen,Dravid the keeper bat?

 

But if Sanga is even 80% of the keeper Dhoni or Mccullum is than sure Sanga all the way as no one doubts his test credentials as a bat.

 

 

Dravid is not even an emergency option as a 'keeper bat in Test matches.  So that ends that.

 

And on the question of Sanga's keeping - he's kept against quality spin often enough - he clearly stopped keeping to extend his career - that was in his personal and team benefit.  Decent enough for an all-star team  - you would assume that the bowling attack will have enough wicket-takers to overcome the occasional error - and for that matter, its not like Dhoni's been flawless behind the wickets all the time either.  

 

 

[maniac]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

In test matches, I will pick Andy Flower after Gilchrist.

 

In ODIs, I will pick Dhoni as a pure batsman in any World XI  with Gilly as the keeper.

WHat about the options in this thread...in tests

[Vijy]

Just now, express bowling said:

In test matches, I will pick Andy Flower after Gilchrist.

 

In ODIs, I will pick Dhoni as a pure batsman in any World XI  with Gilly as the keeper.

I would not pick Gilly in any World ODI XI even as a keeper. He is best suited to open, and there have been many great openers who deserve to play ahead of him.

[maniac]

Just now, Cricketics said:

Manaic forgot to mention test there. Hence I picked Dhoni. Why would you even have Dhoni in tedt wicket keeper poll as he was an average batsman in test?  Options are ridiculous. 

Please read the OP again.

[Cricketics]

10 minutes ago, Vijy said:

24 minutes ago, maniac said:

So just curious Gilly,Flower,who else?

 

 

 

If you had to strengthen batting for a one-off Test, I'd say: Flower/Sanga/ABDV

For just pure keeping: Healey

(Gilly excl

One name forgotten and not mentioned is Alec Stewart. He was a brilliant batsman and also a great wicket keeper.  He should have been the third option instead of Dhoni.

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, maniac said:

WHat about the options in this thread...in tests

In Asia....Dhoni

 

Outside Asia ....Sangakkara

[Cricketics]

11 minutes ago, maniac said:

Yes Sanga the batsman....again is Sanga the keeper-bat in tests worth the gamble ahead of Baz or Dhoni ?

Yes, Sanga has kept to tthe the toughest bowler to keep in the world - Murali. He is perfect. He was pretty good to Malinga too. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Cricketics said:

One name forgotten and not mentioned is Alec Stewart. He was a brilliant batsman and also a great wicket keeper.  He amd should have been the third option instead of Dhoni.

I was going to Stewart, but I looked up his record when he kept - it went down by a fair amount, since it was around 34. Also had poor records against the best attacks of that time, such as Aus, Pak, RSA, etc.

 

I think he was another player, like Sanga, who did better as batsman. Besides, I don't think Stewart kept well to spinners (neither did Jack Russell).

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

I was going to Stewart, but I looked up his record when he kept - it went down by a fair amount, since it was around 34. Also had poor records against the best attacks of that time, such as Aus, Pak, RSA, etc.

 

I think he was another player, like Sanga, who did better as batsman. Besides, I don't think Stewart kept well to spinners (neither did Jack Russell).

He did. I saw plenty of Enlish test cricket around 1996 erc anf he was top wicket keeper to spinners. His ability to move along and predict the batsan's shot was also something which went unnoticed. Mccullum did something similar when he caught Dravid on NZ tour few years ago, but Stewart used to do that on regular basis. 

 

He took some amazing catches to spinners during Ashes too. 

[sandeep]

^ Stewart was Ashwin like with the bat - solid and a hard worker, but he was a supporting act, not quite the main event with the bat.  Doesn't belong in the same bracket as these other 'keeper batsmen - Sanga, ABDV, etc

[maniac]

This thread is not about the greatest keepers or keeper-bats ever to play the game...if that is where this is heading to I am fine with it as some people with good cricketing knowledge and acumen are posting-so I am totally game with that.

 

Let me paraphrase my question.

Point 1-As a Player who played and finished his career as a keeper throughout,Dhoni has stellar stats and will probably be right up there among the 3-4 full-time keeper-bats of all times-no doubts about it.

 

Point 2-I picked Sanga and Mccullum because they all started-ended and played around the same time,they were more or less contemporaries.

 

Point 3-This is not about make-shift keepers like Rahul Dravid or even ABDV who I think for a make-shift is pretty decent.

 

Point 4-Both Sanga and Mccallum only kept for part of their test careers but were still full time keepers in the limited overs format but they have kept enough and have enough body of work to show that they can keep on the toughest of surfaces against very good bowlers...hence I picked them specifically.

 

Point 5-This is about tests

 

Hope that is clear

Edited December 9, 2016 by maniac

[sandeep]

^ ah.  So more of a head-to-head comparison for Dhoni vs his contemporaries.  Yeah - I guess its Sanga, then Dhoni, and then BMac for me.  Dhoni's the slightly better 'keeper over Sanga, but Sanga is so much a better bat that overall he's ahead easy. 

 

And all this is for Test cricket.  In ODIs, Dhoni is comfortably ahead of both.

Edited December 9, 2016 by sandeep

[Vijy]

Just now, maniac said:

This thread is not about the greatest keepers or keeper-bats ever to play the game...if that is where this is heading to I am fine with it as some people with good cricketing knowledge and acumen are posting-so I am totally game with that.

 

Let me paraphrase my question.

Point 1-As a Player who played and finished his career as a keeper throughout,Dhoni has stellar stats and will probably be right up there among the 3-4 full-time keeper-bats of all times-no doubts about it.

 

Point 2-I picked Sanga and Mccullum because they all started-ended and played around the same time,they were more or less contemporaries.

 

Point 3-This is not about make-shift keepers like Rahul Dravid or even ABDV who I think for a make-shift is pretty decent.

 

Point 4-Both Sanga and Mccallum only kept for part of their test careers but were still full time keepers in the limited overs format but they have kept enough and have enough body of work to show that they can keep on the toughest of surfaces against very good bowlers...hence I picked them specifically.

 

Hope that is clear

But, putting Dravid and ABDV in the same sentence is not fair. ABDV started off as a Test-level keeper, whilst Dravid never kept for a complete Test. He was a very effective part-time ODI keeper batsman though.

 

In all-time keeper-batsman of all time, there will be many others ahead of Dhoni: Flower, Gilly, potentially QDK, Les Ames (who avg 40 when everyone averaged 20)

 

There are others, whose avgs are lower, but who were just as good (if not better) at batting than Dhoni: Alec Stewart, Jeff Dujon, etc.

 

These are names just off the top of my head - there are others that elude me at the moment.

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

^ ah.  So more of a head-to-head comparison for Dhoni vs his contemporaries.  Yeah - I guess its Sanga, then Dhoni, and then BMac for me.  Dhoni's the slightly better 'keeper over Sanga, but Sanga is so much a better bat that overall he's ahead easy. 

 

And all this is for Test cricket.  In ODIs, Dhoni is comfortably ahead of both.

Aye, aye :)

[maniac]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

^ ah.  So more of a head-to-head comparison for Dhoni vs his contemporaries.  Yeah - I guess its Sanga, then Dhoni, and then BMac for me.  Dhoni's the slightly better 'keeper over Sanga, but Sanga is so much a better bat that overall he's ahead easy. 

 

And all this is for Test cricket.  In ODIs, Dhoni is comfortably ahead of both.

BMac was athletically a better keeper than Dhoni and their batting averages are not that dissimilar...Dhoni has the edge in the spin dept.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, maniac said:

BMac was athletically a better keeper than Dhoni and their batting averages are not that dissimilar...Dhoni has the edge in the spin dept.

If you remove Zim and Bang, BMac's record as keeper is pretty poor. Dhoni, for all his limitations as Test batsman, was much better bat than BMac (in the latter's career as keeper).