Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[Mariyam]

29 minutes ago, velu said:

 

beg to differ ..

 

sachin scored his 200 against 

 

steyn 

parnell

van der marve

langaveldt

duminy + kallis

Steyn and Kallis are world class bowlers.

What are you trying to say?

 

 

[velu]

4 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

Steyn and Kallis are world class bowlers.

What are you trying to say?

 

 

 

steyn - yes ( in this game dhoni bashed him )

kallis  - so so worldclass

 

rest all are gully level bowlers .. maniac got it wrong here  

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

kaun sa new ODI rules?

two new balls for a change. 

Dude, Sachin at his peak played in ODIs where 275 was a defendable score by most teams. Now, 275 is a losing score against most teams. Huge difference.

Sachin's ODI peak ended effectively in 2003 or so. After that year, he only played a full ODI schedule once and mostly played it part-time to elongage his test career. 

In that period, Sachin  has this record:

filtered

1994-2004

255

249

22

11120

186*

48.98

12501

88.95

36

53

11

1214

128

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	1994-2004	34	34	0	1888	143	55.52	1987	95.01	7	9	1	206	29
v Bangladesh	1995-2000	5	5	0	199	54	39.80	181	109.94	0	1	0	28	3
v England	1996-2003	17	17	3	631	105*	45.07	696	90.66	1	4	0	72	7
v Kenya	1996-2003	10	9	3	647	146	107.83	667	97.00	4	1	0	73	5
v Namibia	2003-2003	1	1	0	152	152	152.00	151	100.66	1	0	0	18	0
v Netherlands	2003-2003	1	1	0	52	52	52.00	72	72.22	0	1	0	7	0
v New Zealand	1994-2003	34	33	2	1325	186*	42.74	1388	95.46	4	6	3	163	20
v Pakistan	1994-2003	38	36	2	1258	118	37.00	1491	84.37	2	8	1	138	19
v South Africa	1995-2002	28	28	0	1083	122	38.67	1393	77.74	3	4	1	118	6
v Sri Lanka	1994-2003	37	35	4	1708	137	55.09	1932	88.40	7	7	1	150	18
v U.A.E.	1994-1994	1	1	0	63	63	63.00	77	81.81	0	1	0	7	1
v West Indies	1994-2002	22	22	4	895	122*	49.72	1134	78.92	2	7	4	98	2
v Zimbabwe	1996-2004	27	27	4	1219	146	53.00	1332	91.51	5	4	0	136	18
in Australia	2000-2004	11	11	0	391	93	35.54	483	80.95	0	3	0	47	1
in Bangladesh	1998-2000	10	10	0	561	141	56.10	522	107.47	1	4	0	60	11
in Canada	1996-1998	12	11	2	313	89*	34.77	467	67.02	0	3	1	31	5
in England	1996-2002	17	17	2	627	140*	41.80	692	90.60	3	0	1	67	7
in India	1994-2003	76	75	6	3916	186*	56.75	4385	89.30	14	20	3	458	37
in Kenya	2000-2000	4	4	0	171	69	42.75	205	83.41	0	1	0	21	4
in New Zealand	1994-2003	13	13	0	357	82	27.46	363	98.34	0	2	2	52	5
in Pakistan	1997-1997	3	3	0	30	21	10.00	40	75.00	0	0	0	3	1
in Singapore	1996-1999	5	5	0	253	100	50.60	285	88.77	1	1	1	25	5
in South Africa	1997-2003	25	24	0	1177	152	49.04	1341	87.77	4	5	1	129	7
in Sri Lanka	1994-2002	28	25	3	958	128	43.54	1113	86.07	4	3	1	83	12
in U.A.E.	1994-2000	35	35	3	1614	143	50.43	1746	92.43	7	6	0	155	28
in West Indies	1997-2002	6	6	2	218	65*	54.50	254	85.82	0	2	0	23	1
in Zimbabwe	1997-2003	10	10	4	534	127*	89.00	605	88.26	2	3	1	60	4

This is head and shoulders above anyone else's record that is a top order batsman. You may bring in Bevan, but Bevan would've averaged 60+ in this era too. Bevan's high average is no fluke, but it is also not comparable to a world-class top order batsman either.

Man used to come around # 5-7 ( 138 of his 196 innings), used to barely take a risk in his batting and remain not out. He was not out 50 of his 138 innings batting at 5 or lower. 
Plus, OZ top order was not weak during this period, since it had MEW, Steve Waugh, Ponting and a few other solid performers. 

As such, Bevan was amongst the best ever, if not *the* best ever runner between the wickets and stealing 1s and turning 1s into 2s.

The lower fielding standards of the 90s - slightly and not by much mind you- helped him a bit in this regard. ( since really its only England and India that have been significant improvers from the 90s fielding standards. OZ, RSA were the same standard/RSA might even have been better in the 90s, Pakistan were marginally worse in the 90s, while the Kiwis are more or less the same standard. But Sri Lanka has definitely regressed in their fielding compared to the 90s & early 2000s.)

 

But either way, i can see Bevan doing his 25*(30-35 balls) even today with greater ease, as batting in ODIs is way easier now.

Every statistical benchmark shows that ODIs are easier now than ever before to bat in, by a significant margin. So direct comparison between Tendulkar and Kohli's stats make zero sense.

Things in favor of Kohli is pretty much the sheer weight of runs scored. His dominance of his peers may be slightly better, but not by much - Nobody came close to Tendulkar's number in his years of dominance either and i should point out that the difference between Kohli and Dhoni (18%) is about the same as between Tendulkar and Mark Waugh (15%) during Tendulkar's glory period - which also actually coincides with MEW's period of greatness. 

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, velu said:

 

steyn - yes ( in this game dhoni bashed him )

kallis  - so so worldclass

 

rest all are gully level bowlers .. maniac got it wrong here  

Err Steyn walks into any side and Kallis is a 5th bowler for almost any ODI side either - i dare you to find a classic '5th bowler' in ODIs thats much better than Kallis. 

The rest are not gully cricketers, the rest are all Aashish Nehra or Aaqib Javed level bowlers - great on their few and far between days but mostly decent and sometimes horrible.

[Global.Baba]

25 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

kaun sa new ODI rules?

5 over powerplay for batting team etc. that they could pick any time etc. not sure of the 2 new ball rule was in place by then

[Global.Baba]

39 minutes ago, velu said:

 

beg to differ ..

 

sachin scored his 200 against 

 

steyn 

parnell

van der marve

langaveldt

duminy + kallis

Langaveldt was a very good odi bowler. Steyn and Kallis- self explanatory and Parnell in 2010 was supposed to be the next big thing before he got washed up.

[express bowling]

15 hours ago, sandeep said:

For all of Virat's statistical achievements, there exist the likes of Rohit, Warner, Amla and even Babar Azam in his peer group, who are putting up similar big numbers. 

 

Batting averages in ODIs  (  rounded off )

 

Kohli       60

 

ABDV     54

Azam     52

Amla      50

Rohit      47

Warner  43

 

These are not " similar big numbers ".

 

Huge difference actually.

 

 

Quote

 Sachin, not unlike Viv, was putting up monster numbers that were head and shoulders ahead of his peer group.  That's one way to compare across eras.  

 

ODI  Batting averages  (  rounded off )

 

Bevan            53

Sachin           45

Kallis             44

Hayden         44

Ponting         42

Sangakkara  42

Ganguly        41

Lara              40

 

Not a case of numbers head and shoulders ahead of Sachin's peer group.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

36 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Not really, in fact, opening the batting in ODIs has always been the more favored and the best position for anyone to bat. 

No. Spoken like someone who only started seeing ODIs since the mid 90s. Till the mid 90s, the ODIs were just a faster version of test cricket with quota restriction for bowlers, thats it. As such, best averages were like in test cricket, where #3-5 position players dominated. Like Viv, Miandad, Jones, etc. 

 

36 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

  There is reason you can count very few good or very good middle order batsman likes of Dhoni, Hussey, Bevan and Yuvraj to some extent while there have been many good to very good openers in ODIs.  Regarding pitches, pitches in ODIs have always been flat even in 90s they were flat.  We scored 376 again NZ in late 90s, 373 against SL in 99 wc in England. 

Only since the field restrictions. Pitches being flat in the 90s was a whole different story than pitches being flat now. 

A flat pitch in tests in the 90s produced 1st innings scores of 400. Now it does 500 with ease. In ODIs, flat pitches produced 275-300 scores. Now flat pitches produce 350+ with ease. 

Back then there were plenty of ODIs that had 225-250 as the winning scores and gripping contests, with a few shooters that went to 175-200 scores while playing nearly whole overs. These days, 175-200 score-fests are over in 30-40 overs. In the 90s, 205 off of 50 winning vs 185 all out in 46 over kind of matches were considered bowler friendly pitches. 

An they were way more common too. 

[Global.Baba]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Batting averages in ODIs  (  rounded off )

 

Kohli       60

 

Azam     52

Amla      50

Rohit      47

Warner  43

 

These are not " similar big numbers ".

 

Huge difference actually.

 

 

 

ODI  Batting averages  (  rounded off )

 

Bevan            53

Sachin           45

Kallis             44

Hayden         44

Ponting         42

Sangakkara  42

Ganguly        41

Lara              40

 

Not a case of numbers head and shoulders ahead of Sachin's peer group.

 

 

Bevan’s average is inflated by notouts. I don’t mean that as a criticism but more to do with his finisher role much like Dhoni and Hussey.

 

Also what is your time frame for these stats? Ponting and Kallis debuted in 95-96 and Sanga in the late 90s early 2000s when things were starting to change. Sachin and Lara by 1993-1994 were the best in the world when 200 was a winning score case in point the 91-92 season.

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Batting averages in ODIs  (  rounded off )

 

Kohli       60

 

Azam     52

Amla      50

Rohit      47

Warner  43

 

These are not " similar big numbers ".

 

Huge difference actually.

 

 

 

ODI  Batting averages  (  rounded off )

 

Bevan            53

Sachin           45

Kallis             44

Hayden         44

Ponting         42

Sangakkara  42

Ganguly        41

Lara              40

 

Not a case of numbers head and shoulders ahead of Sachin's peer group.

 

 

This is because you are comparing completed careers with careers in progress, that have different peak periods and such.

If you compare peak periods, you will see Kohli's peers have peaks of mid-low 50s for a long stretch, while his peak is in the low 60s, while with Tendulkar's generation, his 10-year peak is almost 49, while his peers peaks are 41-42 for same time-frame. 

 

Simple math will tell you that 42 to 49 is not much different than 50 is to 58. 

[rtmohanlal]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

two new balls for a change. 

Dude, Sachin at his peak played in ODIs where 275 was a defendable score by most teams. Now, 275 is a losing score against most teams. Huge difference.

Sachin's ODI peak ended effectively in 2003 or so. After that year, he only played a full ODI schedule once and mostly played it part-time to elongage his test career. 

In that period, Sachin  has this record:

filtered

1994-2004

255

249

22

11120

186*

48.98

12501

88.95

36

53

11

1214

128

Career summary

Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	1994-2004	34	34	0	1888	143	55.52	1987	95.01	7	9	1	206	29
v Bangladesh	1995-2000	5	5	0	199	54	39.80	181	109.94	0	1	0	28	3
v England	1996-2003	17	17	3	631	105*	45.07	696	90.66	1	4	0	72	7
v Kenya	1996-2003	10	9	3	647	146	107.83	667	97.00	4	1	0	73	5
v Namibia	2003-2003	1	1	0	152	152	152.00	151	100.66	1	0	0	18	0
v Netherlands	2003-2003	1	1	0	52	52	52.00	72	72.22	0	1	0	7	0
v New Zealand	1994-2003	34	33	2	1325	186*	42.74	1388	95.46	4	6	3	163	20
v Pakistan	1994-2003	38	36	2	1258	118	37.00	1491	84.37	2	8	1	138	19
v South Africa	1995-2002	28	28	0	1083	122	38.67	1393	77.74	3	4	1	118	6
v Sri Lanka	1994-2003	37	35	4	1708	137	55.09	1932	88.40	7	7	1	150	18
v U.A.E.	1994-1994	1	1	0	63	63	63.00	77	81.81	0	1	0	7	1
v West Indies	1994-2002	22	22	4	895	122*	49.72	1134	78.92	2	7	4	98	2
v Zimbabwe	1996-2004	27	27	4	1219	146	53.00	1332	91.51	5	4	0	136	18
in Australia	2000-2004	11	11	0	391	93	35.54	483	80.95	0	3	0	47	1
in Bangladesh	1998-2000	10	10	0	561	141	56.10	522	107.47	1	4	0	60	11
in Canada	1996-1998	12	11	2	313	89*	34.77	467	67.02	0	3	1	31	5
in England	1996-2002	17	17	2	627	140*	41.80	692	90.60	3	0	1	67	7
in India	1994-2003	76	75	6	3916	186*	56.75	4385	89.30	14	20	3	458	37
in Kenya	2000-2000	4	4	0	171	69	42.75	205	83.41	0	1	0	21	4
in New Zealand	1994-2003	13	13	0	357	82	27.46	363	98.34	0	2	2	52	5
in Pakistan	1997-1997	3	3	0	30	21	10.00	40	75.00	0	0	0	3	1
in Singapore	1996-1999	5	5	0	253	100	50.60	285	88.77	1	1	1	25	5
in South Africa	1997-2003	25	24	0	1177	152	49.04	1341	87.77	4	5	1	129	7
in Sri Lanka	1994-2002	28	25	3	958	128	43.54	1113	86.07	4	3	1	83	12
in U.A.E.	1994-2000	35	35	3	1614	143	50.43	1746	92.43	7	6	0	155	28
in West Indies	1997-2002	6	6	2	218	65*	54.50	254	85.82	0	2	0	23	1
in Zimbabwe	1997-2003	10	10	4	534	127*	89.00	605	88.26	2	3	1	60	4

This is head and shoulders above anyone else's record that is a top order batsman. You may bring in Bevan, but Bevan would've averaged 60+ in this era too. Bevan's high average is no fluke, but it is also not comparable to a world-class top order batsman either.

Man used to come around # 5-7 ( 138 of his 196 innings), used to barely take a risk in his batting and remain not out. He was not out 50 of his 138 innings batting at 5 or lower. 
Plus, OZ top order was not weak during this period, since it had MEW, Steve Waugh, Ponting and a few other solid performers. 

As such, Bevan was amongst the best ever, if not *the* best ever runner between the wickets and stealing 1s and turning 1s into 2s.

The lower fielding standards of the 90s - slightly and not by much mind you- helped him a bit in this regard. ( since really its only England and India that have been significant improvers from the 90s fielding standards. OZ, RSA were the same standard/RSA might even have been better in the 90s, Pakistan were marginally worse in the 90s, while the Kiwis are more or less the same standard. But Sri Lanka has definitely regressed in their fielding compared to the 90s & early 2000s.)

 

But either way, i can see Bevan doing his 25*(30-35 balls) even today with greater ease, as batting in ODIs is way easier now.

Every statistical benchmark shows that ODIs are easier now than ever before to bat in, by a significant margin. So direct comparison between Tendulkar and Kohli's stats make zero sense.

Things in favor of Kohli is pretty much the sheer weight of runs scored. His dominance of his peers may be slightly better, but not by much - Nobody came close to Tendulkar's number in his years of dominance either and i should point out that the difference between Kohli and Dhoni (18%) is about the same as between Tendulkar and Mark Waugh (15%) during Tendulkar's glory period - which also actually coincides with MEW's period of greatness. 

 

And this 11120 runs is still  larger an aggregate than  Lara managed in his entire career...And Lara managed only 40.5 avg: & 79.5 str:, a difference of  8.5 in avg: & 9.5  in str: from that of Sachin  .

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Global.Baba said:

Bevan’s average is inflated by notouts. I don’t mean that as a criticism but more to do with his finisher role much like Dhoni and Hussey.

 

Also what is your time frame for these stats? Ponting and Kallis debuted in 95-96 and Sanga in the late 90s early 2000s when things were starting to change. Sachin and Lara by 1993-1994 were the best in the world when 200 was a winning score case in point the 91-92 season.

Dhoni and Hussey earn their big averages more so than Bevan because Dhoni and Hussey have gotten out plenty going for big shots near the end. Bevan's innings were all in the 80 not out from 100 balls with 3 fours and 0 sixes kind of innings. Much easier to remain not out in the end if you are simply not going for big hits.

 

[velu]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Err Steyn walks into any side and Kallis is a 5th bowler for almost any ODI side either - i dare you to find a classic '5th bowler' in ODIs thats much better than Kallis. 

The rest are not gully cricketers, the rest are all Aashish Nehra or Aaqib Javed level bowlers - great on their few and far between days but mostly decent and sometimes horrible.

 

if kallis is a good "5th bowler" , it doesnt make him a world class in the class of mcgrath , donald , pollock etc 

 

still the bowling lineup is not world class as you guys make it 

[Global.Baba]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

Dhoni and Hussey earn their big averages more so than Bevan because Dhoni and Hussey have gotten out plenty going for big shots near the end. Bevan's innings were all in the 80 not out from 100 balls with 3 fours and 0 sixes kind of innings. Much easier to remain not out in the end if you are simply not going for big hits.

 

Unbeleivable we are on the same page

[Muloghonto]

Just now, rtmohanlal said:

And this 11120 runs is still  larger an aggregate than  Lara managed in his entire career...And Lara managed only 40.5 avg: & 79.5 str:, a difference of  8.5 in avg: & 9.5  in str: from that of Sachin  .

It also explains why he has no centuries in OZ for so long - he didnt play much in OZ before or after his peak. During his peak he played less than 12 matches - thats less than 6% of his entire peak- batting in OZ. And a 35 average in those days is the equivalent of a 40-45 average in a foreign nation today.

[velu]

8 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Langaveldt was a very good odi bowler. Steyn and Kallis- self explanatory and Parnell in 2010 was supposed to be the next big thing before he got washed up.

 

still definitely they are nowhere closer to world class ..

and steyn got punished severly by dhoni himself   

[Mariyam]

When Kohli started his cricketing career, there was the IPL. Easier batting pitches, batting friendly rules and that obviously gets him more in tune to scoring faster. He carried this muscle memory to his ODI games.

Sachin had no such advantages going into ODI games.

 

[Global.Baba]

Just now, velu said:

 

if kallis is a good "5th bowler" , it doesnt make him a world class in the class of mcgrath , donald , pollock etc 

 

still the bowling lineup is not world class as you guys make it 

Kallis has 270+ wickets with a eco rate of 4.84 that is world class in itself

[Muloghonto]

Just now, velu said:

 

if kallis is a good "5th bowler" , it doesnt make him a world class in the class of mcgrath , donald , pollock etc 

 

still the bowling lineup is not world class as you guys make it 

Those are all-time great bowlers. Worldclass is simply someone who will walk into any actual, real world team of his time or time before.

A world-class player like Kallis is a 5th bowler for virtually any side that has ever played cricket, since you will struggle to find a 5th bowler ever playing in any team that is significantly better than Kallis, who is a regular fixture in the team AS A FIFTH BOWLER.

 

[Global.Baba]

Just now, velu said:

 

still definitely they are nowhere closer to world class ..

and steyn got punished severly by dhoni himself   

And no one disagrees Dhoni of 2010 was awesome.