Pace and Hype

[rkt.india]

Why are people hung up on just pace alone, Bret Lee might have been the fastest in 2004 series but he was also the most expensive and easy bowler to face to all Indian batsmen.There is no point of just being express  without other attributes.With that pace you are injury waiting to happen.

I am getting chuckle at some people who are giving out numbers just by watching the videos.Marshall was quick enough to be able to do all things which Lee and Akthar could do as far as pace is concerned, but both of them would not be even close to other things which Marshall could do , one thing people tend to forget with that WI team is they had four bowlers who were equally good so they had to share the spoils.

Just watching some random youtube videos and analyzing the speed or quality of great bowlers is ridiculous.Viv Richards who is by far the best player of pace bowling by many fast bowlers was talking about the sheer pace which Jeff thompson generated in 1975 series.

Only Johnson in Ashes has come close to such physical intimidation which lasted for whole series.Wi were doing that for more than decade.

 

 

 

Brett Lee was coming back from injury in 200 and wasn't at his quickest. Look what he did in 2008 series. Also we cant compare 80s to post 2000. Batting has improved in every aspect against genuine pace.

[express bowling]

Why are people hung up on just pace alone, Bret Lee might have been the fastest in 2004 series but he was also the most expensive and easy bowler to face to all Indian batsmen.There is no point of just being express  without other attributes.With that pace you are injury waiting to happen.

I am getting chuckle at some people who are giving out numbers just by watching the videos.Marshall was quick enough to be able to do all things which Lee and Akthar could do as far as pace is concerned, but both of them would not be even close to other things which Marshall could do , one thing people tend to forget with that WI team is they had four bowlers who were equally good so they had to share the spoils.

Just watching some random youtube videos and analyzing the speed or quality of great bowlers is ridiculous.Viv Richards who is by far the best player of pace bowling by many fast bowlers was talking about the sheer pace which Jeff thompson generated in 1975 series.

Only Johnson in Ashes has come close to such physical intimidation which lasted for whole series.Wi were doing that for more than decade.

 

 

 

First...this thread is ONLY about the pace of bowlers and the hype related to pace of bowlers when there were no regular speed guns. This thread is not about the quality of a pace bowler.

Everyone knows that Marshall, Akram. Lillee etc. were some of the best bowlers ever to have bowled in test cricket....no dispute there. They were not the quickest bowlers though.

I have watched Akram, Walsh, Ambrose, Waqar for their entire careers....Marshall at his peak and later years and Garner, Holding during their later years...watched many many ball to ball overs with great interest. Not just commenting based on videos. Marshall was a genuine fast bowler and I had never seen him bowl express ( which has been the hype ). 

Jeff Thomson was a very quick bowler. He must have bowled some 150 k + spells in his peak years of 1975 and 1976.... Even Holding was a very fast bowler for 2 years or so.....   I don't doubt it at all.   What is doubt is claims of Thomson himself and endorsements by many others that Thomson used to bowl 170 k + spells at his peak. That is just ridiculous and that is what this thread is about.

 Physical intimidation is a different issue all together. How can you expect modern batsmen to be intimidated physically and mentally when they have much better protective gears, much better bats, superior movement speed,  practice against fast bowling machines and having to cope with max 2 bouncers per over. In the "70s...it was far easier to intimidate batsmen at a much slower bowling speeds than today because of the reasons I just mentioned.

 

 

[Rightarmfast]

I might be contradicting my statement above with the specific to kallis and akram comparison but from what I have noticed is that some of the quickest deliveries recorded are usually the full pitch ones where as the short pitch ones that just wizz past the batsmen are a few clicks slower.

so I am assuming it must be the speed through the air against the impact and zip of the pitch 

Yeah, Bouncers and short pitched deliveries anyway will not register than high a speed because the ball loses a bit of pace after bouncing. This will be the same no matter what technology, what speed gun is taken.

[putrevus]

First...this thread is ONLY about the pace of bowlers and the hype related to pace of bowlers when there were no regular speed guns. This thread is not about the quality of a pace bowler.

Everyone knows that Marshall, Akram. Lillee etc. were some of the best bowlers ever to have bowled in test cricket....no dispute there. They were not the quickest bowlers though.

I have watched Akram, Walsh, Ambrose, Waqar for their entire careers....Marshall at his peak and later years and Garner, Holding during their later years...watched many many ball to ball overs with great interest. Not just commenting based on videos. Marshall was a genuine fast bowler and I had never seen him bowl express ( which has been the hype ). 

Jeff Thomson was a very quick bowler. He must have bowled some 150 k + spells in his peak years of 1975 and 1976.... Even Holding was a very fast bowler for 2 years or so.....   I don't doubt it at all.   What is doubt is claims of Thomson himself and endorsements by many others that Thomson used to bowl 170 k + spells at his peak. That is just ridiculous and that is what this thread is about.

 Physical intimidation is a different issue all together. How can you expect modern batsmen to be intimidated physically and mentally when they have much better protective gears, much better bats, superior movement speed,  practice against fast bowling machines and having to cope with max 2 bouncers per over. In the "70s...it was far easier to intimidate batsmen at a much slower bowling speeds than today because of the reasons I just mentioned.

 

 

Didn't you see the intimidation by Johnson with sheer pace and bounce in Ashes.It doesn't matter how much protection you have, taking blows on body is still very scary.

Ball thudding onto helmets is very unsettling, Stuart Broad is prime example.

Johnson was not bowling 160 , he was operating at 145 plus and when it is aimed at chest and higher it is very scary.

So multiply Johnson times four with more bounce and consistency then imagine batsmen's plight.

Yes they had lesser protection then but that is not the only reason for the intimidation.

If you have a chance go and watch Manoj Prabhakar getting injured in 1995 Mohali test against WI and how that scared the daylights of Indian team and collapsed for 100 losing very winnable test.

Those WI bowlers might or might not have clocked 160 but they would scare any team even today.

No one bowls 150 plus all spells forget careers.It is ability to bowl at 145 plus regularly makes bowlers intimidate batsmen.

[express bowling]

Didn't you see the intimidation by Johnson with sheer pace and bounce in Ashes.It doesn't matter how much protection you have, taking blows on body is still very scary.

Ball thudding onto helmets is very unsettling, Stuart Broad is prime example.

Johnson was not bowling 160 , he was operating at 145 plus and when it is aimed at chest and higher it is very scary.

So multiply Johnson times four with more bounce and consistency then imagine batsmen's plight.

Yes they had lesser protection then but that is not the only reason for the intimidation.

If you have a chance go and watch Manoj Prabhakar getting injured in 1995 Mohali test against WI and how that scared the daylights of Indian team and collapsed for 100 losing very winnable test.

Those WI bowlers might or might not have clocked 160 but they would scare any team even today.

No one bowls 150 plus all spells forget careers.It is ability to bowl at 145 plus regularly makes bowlers intimidate batsmen.

I largely agree with you on your last point. In fact, in the days of no or bad  helmets, bad protective gears and bad bats...bowlers capable of bouncing the ball regularly and accurately at even 135 k to 145 k , with no limitation on bouncers, would be very very intimidating....especially if there are 4 such bowlers doing so relentlessly on bouncy tracks.

BUT...that is exactly my point all along. Many many past players claim that the West Indian great fast bowlers used to bowl 155 k +  at will ...that part is nothing but hype...they could create intimidation at a much lesser pace.

I think it is a no brainer that better protective gears, better bats and only 2 bouncers per over would make intimidation by bowlers far more difficult. The same Johnson has not been able to intimidate batsmen to any significant extent as that Ashes series while bowling 145 k o 152 k in many other series. There have been quite a few other bowlers bowling 145 k to 150 k spells in the last few years with very little intimidation.

I have seen Marshall, Holding, Garner and Daniel bowling in tandem. They were very good , no doubt... but bad protective gear as well as their reputation played a large part in the intimidation process too. They could bowl body-line continuously which is not allowed nowadays.

Hypothetically...If the '70s batsmen had to play Srinath, Aaron, Umesh and Ishant ( all very ordinary bowlers till now apart from Srinath ) ...without helmets ...on the super lively and bouncy WACA pitch of the '70s....I assure you they would be far more frightened than current Aussie batsmen would be of the same attack.

 

 

 

[Rightarmfast]

I agree with both of you. However, me having been a state level boxer, would just add my 2 pence. In boxing, we do not wear any protective gears while sparring. And boxing a very very full contact, scary sport. You cant get out of the ring without bleeding, and that happens on a daily basis. But the moment I used to wear some protective guards, like a face cover, I used to be not scared at all.

On similar logic, I would think that the WI quartet, although would be a very fine unit of fast bowlers, but they may not be able to scare the batsmen as much. Also, the new laws go against them.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Another video of Wasim Akram from 89-90 series. I think its in Australia. I mean, if he ever was fast, he had to be fast around this time. But look at his pace. If its anything more than medium pace, then I will change my name.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig2reyueIl0

[express bowling]

Another video of Wasim Akram from 89-90 series. I think its in Australia. I mean, if he ever was fast, he had to be fast around this time. But look at his pace. If its anything more than medium pace, then I will change my name.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig2reyueIl0

Akram IS bowling medium pace ..... in this video  at-least.  

[Vilander]

Lasith Malinga has exactly the same stats as Ajit Agarkar for ODI's. 191 matches, Agarkar has 288 wickets whereas Malinga has 291. Avg and Econ very very similar. The only difference was their pace. At his fastest, Malinga was express and Agarkar was genuinely fast. 

fastest malinga was 156...mostly he was around 140, thats not express. Agarkar was 135 - 142 thats fast medium pace...

[Vilander]

Malinga was not express, neither Agarkar genuine fast. Malinga was fast in the category of Umesh and Aaron, Agarkar was fast medium in category of Shami. Only express bowlers in last 20 years have been Lee, Akhtar, Tait, and Bond who could bowl 150-155 kph more often than anyone else. Mitchell Johnson have done it at times, not that consistently. Starc has been doing it now.

Fidel Edwards and the other West Indian..Jerome taylor ?

[rkt.india]

Fidel Edwards and the other West Indian..Jerome taylor ?

they arent express by any means, fast yes. Taylor is fast medium. Edwards is fast.

[express bowling]

fastest malinga was 156...mostly he was around 140, thats not express. Agarkar was 135 - 142 thats fast medium pace...

Agarkar bowled many 137 k to 145 k spells in the  first 18 months of his career. 

After that , he settled down to 132 k to 142 k, fast-medium bowling.

[Rightarmfast]

Agarkar bowled quite a few deliveries at 147k's. That was his top speed, atleast what I have seen. And I saw it more than once!

[express bowling]

Agarkar bowled quite a few deliveries at 147k's. That was his top speed, atleast what I have seen. And I saw it more than once!

He did.

[Singh bling]

According to 1975 -76 study , both Thompson and roberts were very quick, even Lillee was clocked 154.8 in 1976

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

 

1979 competetion timed them 8-10 kph slower ,may be different method, This mystery will only solve if the camera's that were measuring speed in 1975-1976 study should be used again to determine speed of current bowlers

[express bowling]

According to 1975 -76 study , both Thompson and roberts were very quick, even Lillee was clocked 154.8 in 1976

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

 

1979 competetion timed them 8-10 kph slower ,may be different method, This mystery will only solve if the camera's that were measuring speed in 1975-1976 study should be used again to determine speed of current bowlers

The most important issue is whether these speeds were recorded in match situations. What a bowler bowls at in a normal match situation. knowing that he cannot bowl no-balls, wide balls and try not to get hit, where the bowling objective is to bowl good balls and not the quickest possible ball at the cost of everything else.....where he has to bowl many many overs per day and hence has to conserve his energy.

The 1979 competition was not in a match situation...that I know.

What were the speed ranges of these bowlers...day in and day out, in normal matches is what I am interested in ....and that we will never know.

This page also does not have much mention of bowling speeds from 1999 onwards....when speed guns were regularly used in matches.

[express bowling]

According to 1975 -76 study , both Thompson and roberts were very quick, even Lillee was clocked 154.8 in 1976

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283875.html

 

1979 competetion timed them 8-10 kph slower ,may be different method, This mystery will only solve if the camera's that were measuring speed in 1975-1976 study should be used again to determine speed of current bowlers

A closer study of the page shows that the 1975 and 1976 competitions are basically mentioned in Dennis Lillee's book ( interested party ) , " The Art of Fast bowling ".

I found a neutral evidence of this 1975 study in the following video which states the fastest balls as 

Thomson  160.4  k

Roberts  150.6   k  ( different from Lillee's claim of 159 k ) 

Holding  148.5  k  ( different from Lillee's claim of 150 k ) 

Lillee     139.0  k  ( very different from his own claim of 148.5  k  )       

These speeds seem  more plausible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo6VkRalvDw

 

 

There is a Youtube video (  neutral source )  of the 1979 competition where most of these pacers found it difficult to even touch 140 k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGcZRxE3kQA

Fastest and then average speeds in an 8 ball over

Thomson   147.9 k   /   142.0 k

Holding     141.3 k /   135.3 k

Imran khan   139.7 k   /  138.3 k

Colin Croft   139.2 k / 134.7 k

Andy Roberts  138.6 k  /  135.3 k

Dennis Lillee  136.4 k / 132.5 k

Wayne Daniel  133.5 k / 128.2 k

Len Pascoe    131.6 k  /  127.7 k

Richard Hadlee  129.8 k /  128.1 k

 

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by express bowling

[Vilander]

The most important issue is whether these speeds were recorded in match situations. What a bowler bowls at in a normal match situation. knowing that he cannot bowl no-balls, wide balls and try not to get hit, where the bowling objective is to bowl good balls and not the quickest possible ball at the cost of everything else.....where he has to bowl many many overs per day and hence has to conserve his energy.

The 1979 competition was not in a match situation...that I know.

What were the speed ranges of these bowlers...day in and day out, in normal matches is what I am interested in ....and that we will never know.

This page also does not have much mention of bowling speeds from 1999 onwards....when speed guns were regularly used in matches.

the competition ment they had to just come out and bowl fast some 4 deliveries each, just bowl fast, and they blaze to 138-147..if the current guys are asked to do this i am sure some will pop a 156+.

[express bowling]

the competition ment they had to just come out and bowl fast some 4 deliveries each, just bowl fast, and they blaze to 138-147..if the current guys are asked to do this i am sure some will pop a 156+.

I believe so too.

The 1979 competition was in a non-match condition.

[Vilander]

I believe so too.

The 1979 competition was in a non-match condition.

i am sure Jeff , Holding and Andy were fast, but the rest were just gas