Thommo - how quick was he?'

[Muloghonto]

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Edited October 13, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

15 minutes ago, Vilander said:

So he hit 152 - 153 twice..how does this make him 150 stock bowler. Even our current crop did this on numerous occasions. 

I've never seen anyone from our bowlers, except Aaron, cross 147. 

Note, these two are after Waqar's stress fractures and everyone who's faced him says he was at his fastest prior to 1996. So that makes it highly likely that he was stock-balling somewhere in the 150kph range.

 

42 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Yeah and while all other athletic divisions improved cricketers regressed in their skills and physical ability, eventually in 30 years every one will be able to bowl only underarm and bat with an oar 

Not true. We are talking about the top 1% here, not the 'average cricketer'. Top 1% may also be subject to 'golden generation' effect.

Nobody scores as much points in hockey as Gretzky does. Or come up with save % as Dominic Hasek. Nobody in tennis today has the 115mph second serve, except for John Isner. 

 

Cricketing fast bowlers, went through a golden generation period from 1975-1995. Just like how spinners went through a golden generation from 1965-80 and 95-2010. 

 

[Rightarmfast]

20 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I've never seen anyone from our bowlers, except Aaron, cross 147. 

Note, these two are after Waqar's stress fractures and everyone who's faced him says he was at his fastest prior to 1996. So that makes it highly likely that he was stock-balling somewhere in the 150kph range.

 

Not true. We are talking about the top 1% here, not the 'average cricketer'. Top 1% may also be subject to 'golden generation' effect.

Nobody scores as much points in hockey as Gretzky does. Or come up with save % as Dominic Hasek. Nobody in tennis today has the 115mph second serve, except for John Isner. 

 

Cricketing fast bowlers, went through a golden generation period from 1975-1995. Just like how spinners went through a golden generation from 1965-80 and 95-2010. 

 

Thanks for confirming you know nothing about cricket and fast bowling. You havent been an astute observer, and I dare say like us @rkt.india@express bowling@Vilander@MCcricket , we have observed players for years. And anyone who has watched cricket knows even Munaf patel crossed 147, even Zaheer and Agarkar and Nehra,RP Singh, Sreesanth. I am not even mentioning Srinath, Ishant, Umesh Shami .

 

You know nothing about fast bowlers and bowling speeds if you didnt have this elementary knowledge

[Muloghonto]

15 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Thanks for confirming you know nothing about cricket and fast bowling. You havent been an astute observer, and I dare say like us @rkt.india@express bowling@Vilander@MCcricket , we have observed players for years. And anyone who has watched cricket knows even Munaf patel crossed 147, even Zaheer and Agarkar and Nehra,RP Singh, Sreesanth. I am not even mentioning Srinath, Ishant, Umesh Shami .

 

You know nothing about fast bowlers and bowling speeds if you didnt have this elementary knowledge

But a guy who thinks he can predict speed from watching a front-on view from tv, knows more than professional experts, does.

There is a difference between you and me. I know i know nothing. You don't know you know nothing and instead are misleading others.

 

PS: We are talking about stock ball/stock ball over a spell here. Not one-offs. That was the whole context of Vilander's post. 

[express bowling]

On 10/13/2017 at 10:19 AM, Muloghonto said:

I've never seen anyone from our bowlers, except Aaron, cross 147. 

 

 

You may have chosen not to see them  BUT   ....

 

UMESH  has clocked a fastest of 152.5 k and quite a few 150 k+ balls  ..... usually had quite a few balls of around 149 k or 148 k in almost every series till early 2017

 

 

 

 

Umesh in World Cup 2015 semifinal .... fastest 149 k,  average 145 k   (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/icc-cricket-world-cup-2015/match/48

 

Umesh in World Cup 2015 match  Pakistan .... fastest 149 k,  average 141 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/icc-cricket-world-cup-2015/match/04

 

Umesh in 3rd test match 2nd innings vs England 2016 ... fastest 149 k,  average 140 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-england-2016/match/03

 

Umesh in 2nd test match 1st innings vs England 2016 ... fastest 148 k,  average 141 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-england-2016/match/02

 

Umesh in 4th test match 2nd innings vs England 2016 ... fastest 148 k,  average 142 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-england-2016/match/04

 

Umesh in 5th test match 1st innings vs England 2016 ... fastest 148 k,  average 141 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-england-2016/match/05

 

Umesh in 3rd test match 1st innings vs Australia 2017 ... fastest 148 k,  average 139 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-australia-2017/match/03

 

Umesh in 2nd test match 1st innings vs Australia 2017 ... fastest 148 k,  average 140 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-australia-2017/match/02

 

Umesh in CT 2017 vs SL ....fastest 148 k,  average 139 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-australia-2017/match/03

 

and many many more such matches for Umesh  ....

 

 

ISHANT too has bowled quite a few 150 k+ balls ..... fastest  of 152.6 k

 

Here is a video of him bowling 152.2 K

 

 

 

 

 

MD. SHAMI ..... fastest of 151.2  k

in 2nd test match 1st innings vs NZ  2016 ... fastest 151.2  k,  average 140 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

 http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-new-zealand-2016/match/02

 

in 3rd test match 1st innings vs Eng  2016 ... fastest 147 k + ,  average 138 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/india-v-england-2016/match/03

 

and some other such innings

 

 

BUMRAH      148 k,  148 k

 

CT 2017 final vs Pakistan .....  ... fastest 148 k,  average 138 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/icc-champions-trophy-2017/match/15

 

CT 2017  vs SL .....  ... fastest 148 k,  average 136 k  (  check hawkeye .. bowl speeds )

http://www.bcci.tv/icc-champions-trophy-2017/match/08

 

 

AARON    153.4 k  ( only speed Mulo is aware of )

Aaron took 13 wickets in the 2010–11 Ranji Trophy and bowled a 153.4 km/h (95.3 mph) delivery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varun_Aaron

 

 

SRINATH     157 K, 156 k, 149.6 k

 

In the 1997/98 series against Australia, Srinath's with one particular delivery measured at 149.6 km/h.^[5] The Zimbabwe captain Alistair Campbell revealed that Srinath was recorded at 157 km/hr on 27 January 1997 in the game at Paarl between India and Zimbabwe. He said about this game: "We then moved on to our second game against India, at Boland Bank Park. In all 236 was quite a decent score, as it wasn't the easiest of pitches to bat on, and Srinath I think bowled the quickest that any of our guys had ever seen. He bowled a really quick spell early on, even quicker than Allan Donald; he was timed at 157 km/h, a good 10 km/h faster than Donald was bowling throughout the tournament. Grant Flower was hit on the thigh pad, and when he came off he said he thought he had broken his leg"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javagal_Srinath

 

Between December '96 and February '97 Srinath's speeds were timed in excess of 150kph and were comparable to those of both Allan Donald and South Africa's 'new' pace sensation Lance Klusener. Whilst Klusener's fastest ball came in at 154kph and he proved at the time to be faster than Donald, it has been brought to my attention on numerous occasions that Srinath pipped them both with one particular delivery measured at 156kph.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/111878.html

 

 

In their first encounter with the new speed guns, Srinath clocked 148kph while McGrath, although the fastest of the rest, was a whopping seven kph behind Srinath at 141kph.

At the tournament's first match Srinath and McGrath went head to head once more. This time it was evident for all the world to see that Javagal Srinath was no medium pacer, but was a genuine speedster clocking up 149.6kph once again and bettering McGrath's best speed by some 9kph.

Srinath proved to be the second fastest bowler of the tournament next to Shoaib (154.5kph) 

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/111878.html

 

 

Once in an interview, 1992 World cup winning Pakistan captain Imran Khan said that after watching him bowl 150 km/h speed on Indian pitches, he considered Srinathto be the most grossly underrated bowler in the world.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javagal_Srinath

 

 

NEHRA    149.7 k   in WC 2003

 

SREESANTH   148.4 k  .... video a few posts below this one.

 

 

 

.... and proves the kind of bias against Indian fast bowlers

 

 

Edited October 17, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

.... and proves the kind of bias against Indian fast bowlers

 

 

None of that changes the fact that you are talking out of your rear end when you say you can tell who is faster and who is slower from TV. 

Like i said, don't make me get out my formulas for you, because then the embarrassment would be total. This is not just physics, this is simple image mapping that is used ALL THE TIME by video softwares. 

Your and Rkt's egotistic BS will not go unchallenged.

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

None of that changes the fact that you are talking out of your rear end when you say you can tell who is faster and who is slower from TV. 

Like i said, don't make me get out my formulas for you, because then the embarrassment would be total. This is not just physics, this is simple image mapping that is used ALL THE TIME by video softwares. 

Your and Rkt's egotistic BS will not go unchallenged.

 

 

I  have actually said that it is NOT possible to gauge exact bowling speeds by human beings.... and you need speed-guns or high-speed cameras.

 

But you can say that Starc is quicker than Bhuvi by watching on TV too, as the difference in speed is huge .... although you CANNOT state the exact speeds that they are bowling at.

 

I agree that it is not possible to demarcate relative speeds by watching on TV when it is quite close ..... like say Shami vs Bumrah

 

Your deep bias against Indian pacers is very apparent though.

Edited October 13, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

I've never seen anyone from our bowlers, except Aaron, cross 147. 

Note, these two are after Waqar's stress fractures and everyone who's faced him says he was at his fastest prior to 1996. So that makes it highly likely that he was stock-balling somewhere in the 150kph range.

 

Not true. We are talking about the top 1% here, not the 'average cricketer'. Top 1% may also be subject to 'golden generation' effect.

Nobody scores as much points in hockey as Gretzky does. Or come up with save % as Dominic Hasek. Nobody in tennis today has the 115mph second serve, except for John Isner. 

 

Cricketing fast bowlers, went through a golden generation period from 1975-1995. Just like how spinners went through a golden generation from 1965-80 and 95-2010. 

 

now see Umesh Yadav on 2012 tour.

 

 

varun aaron

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

36 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

None of that changes the fact that you are talking out of your rear end when you say you can tell who is faster and who is slower from TV. 

Like i said, don't make me get out my formulas for you, because then the embarrassment would be total. This is not just physics, this is simple image mapping that is used ALL THE TIME by video softwares. 

Your and Rkt's egotistic BS will not go unchallenged.

 

yeah we cannot tell by watching from TV whether Praveen Kumar is slower than Aaron, Umesh Yadav and Mohammad Shami.  For that, we will have to be present on the field just behind the bowlers. 

[express bowling]

15 hours ago, putrevus said:

Safety  gear does that eliminate fear, Pommies inspite of all protective gear were scared like hell facing MJ in last ashes.

 

Safety gears do not eliminate fear....  but fear sets in at much higher bowling speeds if there are safety gears.

 

Quote

MJ even at his fastest was at best equal to one of those four WI bowlers.

Any proof of that  ?    I could not find much.

 

Quote

even today those 1980s WI bowlers would be the nastiest bowlers to face,

 

Maybe ..... may not be .... no way to find out

 

Quote

every one was express and Holding was super express.

 

No proof of that. 

 

Only Roberts was occasionally measured  bowling at a pace which was similar to modern express bowlers.

 

Holding's fastest recorded speed was in the early 150s ..... similar to standard fast bowlers of today 

 

Garner was not a genuine fast bowler according to Richards. 

 

 

Quote

When ball is bouncing chest high from short of length  all the time no batsman is safe.

 

 

Agree

 

But it depends somewhat on the bounce of the pitch too

 

Like the case below, where even Bhuvi is looking nasty.

 

http://www.bcci.tv/videos/id/4553/bouncers-served-hot-courtesy-umesh-yadav-bhuvneshwar-kumar

 

Most of the nasty spells by Thommo, Holding and Roberts were on the fast,  bouncy Aussie pitches or the 2 really fast WI pitches of that era.

 

 

Quote

Talking about just speed is just juvenile . Akram is like Steyn who if needed could operate at higher speeds but generally operated about 140 which is plenty because the amount of movement they generated.

 

Agree  .... but no one is opposing this in this thread.

 

A 140 k bowler, who becomes nasty or dangerous due to bounce or swing, is called a nasty fast bowler and not an express bowler.

 

Why are some people hell bent on calling them express bowlers  !

Edited October 13, 2017 by express bowling

[Mosher]

Check out how many balls Umesh bowls over 149k's. Fastest being 149.9K's. This is during India's tour to Aus. 

 

https://streamable.com/dy0zl 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Mosher

[express bowling]

Sreesanth  148.4 k .... watch from 4.00 of this video

 

 

 

 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

yeah we cannot tell by watching from TV whether Praveen Kumar is slower than Aaron, Umesh Yadav and Mohammad Shami.  For that, we will have to be present on the field just behind the bowlers. 

Correct. 

And even if you can, its completely egotistic to say YOU can from 100 feet away via tv but people who actually face those bowlers and see 1000x more balls than you, cannot. Do you see the illogic of that ?

 

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

I  have actually said that it is NOT possible to gauge exact bowling speeds by human beings.... and you need speed-guns or high-speed cameras.

 

But you can say that Starc is quicker than Bhuvi by watching on TV too, as the difference in speed is huge .... although you CANNOT state the exact speeds that they are bowling at.

 

I agree that it is not possible to demarcate relative speeds by watching on TV when it is quite close ..... like say Shami vs Bumrah

 

Your deep bias against Indian pacers is very apparent though.

IF there were no batsmen or wickets and their whole bodies were blotted out, you are just seeing a ball being bowled front on the pitch, you won't be able to tell whether Starc is quicker than Bhuvi , via tv. And that proves, you cannot tell the speeds.

 

 

PS: What you call bias, i call not getting carried away for my favourite team. 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

IF there were no batsmen or wickets and their whole bodies were blotted out, you are just seeing a ball being bowled front on the pitch, you won't be able to tell whether Starc is quicker than Bhuvi , via tv. And that proves, you cannot tell the speeds.

 

You are being too theoretical as usual and arguing for the sake of it.

 

Have I talked about gauging delivery speeds without any batsmen or wickets for reference  ?  In telecasted content and videos, both are available for reference.

 

In fact, 

• different reactions of batsmen to different pacers on the same pitch ..... like  whether they are getting hurried or not, especially to full deliveries.
• whether they are playing more on the front-foot or back foot to good length balls, 
• how the pitched up balls are carrying to the keeper for different bowlers on the same pitch,
• whether the keeper is very close to the 30-yard circle or logo on that 30-yard circle etc. 
• batsman standing deep in the crease vs outside the crease

 

.... all these factors are important pointers for ROUGHLY ESTIMATING or guessing bowlers' speeds while watching on TV.

 

 

Quote

 

PS: What you call bias, i call not getting carried away for my favourite team. 

 

Huh .... like not noticing a single 147 k+ ball by an Indian pacer except Aaron ..... when dozens of them have been bowled by 8 different pacers .... while saying that Holding bowled 153 k+ throughout the day     

Edited October 13, 2017 by express bowling

[Muloghonto]

52 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

You are being too theoretical as usual and arguing for the sake of it.

 

Have I talked about gauging delivery speeds without any batsmen or wickets for reference  ?  In telecasted content and videos, both are available for reference.

 

In fact, 

• different reactions of batsmen to different pacers on the same pitch ..... like  whether they are getting hurried or not, especially to full deliveries.
• whether they are playing more on the front-foot or back foot to good length balls, 
• how the pitched up balls are carrying to the keeper for different bowlers on the same pitch,
• whether the keeper is very close to the 30-yard circle or logo on that 30-yard circle etc. 

 

.... all these factors are important pointers for ROUGHLY ESTIMATING or guessing bowlers' speeds while watching on TV.

Rough, as in you can tell apart, empirically speaking, Shane Warne vs Alan Donald. Beyond that, you are not seeing anything worth deducing with your eyes, you are simply applying prior knowledge. hence, flawed. 

 

52 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Huh .... like not noticing a single 147 k+ ball by an Indian pacer except Aaron ..... when dozens of them have been bowled by 8 different pacers .... while saying that Holding bowled 153 k+ throughout the day     

We were speaking of STOCK DELIVERY. The post i quoted, specifically talked about stock delivery. And no, i have never seen an Indian bowler- Srinath or otherwise, have a 147kph STOCK DELIVERY except Aaron

 

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Rough, as in you can tell apart, empirically speaking, Shane Warne vs Alan Donald. Beyond that, you are not seeing anything worth deducing with your eyes, you are simply applying prior knowledge. hence, flawed. 

 

How can .....  batsmen getting hurried or not getting hurried  on a given day .... playing on the front foot vs back foot to good length balls .... batsman standing deep in the crease vs outside the crease on a given day .... keeper or 1st slip standing on 30-yard circle ..... be prior knowledge  ?

 

Quote

We were speaking of STOCK DELIVERY. The post i quoted, specifically talked about stock delivery. And no, i have never seen an Indian bowler- Srinath or otherwise, have a 147kph STOCK DELIVERY except Aaron

 

 

The post above also compared Waqar's speeds with our current fast bowlers, saying that he had hit 152 k / 153 k twice .... just like our quicks. 

 

By the way, how many pacers have we seen with stock deliveries of 148 k in tests or ODIs  for any length of time   ?

 

Akhtar, Lee, Tait,  regularly    .....Johnson, Starc  occasionally.

Edited October 13, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

How can .....  batsmen getting hurried or not getting hurried  on a given day .... playing on the front foot vs back foot to good length balls .... batsman standing deep in the crease vs outside the crease on a given day .... keeper or 1st slip standing on 30-yard circle ..... be prior knowledge  ?

 

   Goal post changes now !   You did not mention stock deliveries earlier.

 

By the way, how many pacers have we seen with stock deliveries of 148 k in tests or ODIs  for any length of time   ?

 

Akhtar, Lee, Tait, Johnson, Starc . maybe 1 more

since the advent of speed guns, we have only seen 3 bowlers Actor, Lee, Tait who we can see had a stock ball at 147K and could bowl it every over.  There is none currently.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

since the advent of speed guns, we have only seen 3 bowlers Actor, Lee, Tait who we can see had a stock ball at 147K and could bowl it every over.  There is none currently.

 

He was talking of 148 k stock ball

 

The above  3 regularly and Starc and  Johnson in odd spells

[rkt.india]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

He was talking of 148 k stock ball

 

The above  3 regularly and Starc and  Johnson in odd spells

odd spell is not a stock. Both Johnson and Starc with stock ball in 142-145 range.