Vijay finishes with average of 17, Rahul averaged 7

[vvvslaxman]

Besides this series belongs to bowlers sub 200 totals 5 times already   It is important to look at their contribution with context. De jock edged for 3 fours and got out. But someone who faced more balls and helped build a partnership would b mor valuable here.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Cricketics said:

Until how long? If we have done bad in terms of batting in two test matches in England, you won’t make change to the batting order? So you saying you will make changes after England series which is a long 5 match series.

Until som one sucks so bad. Don’t tell me M Vijay was the worst here. To me he was the second best Indian batsman

[Gollum]

@Cricketics why are you so adamant about Pujara at no 3? He is a beast in Asia but after his stellar SA tour (2013-14) he has failed in NZ, Eng, Aus and SA. Why such a long rope for him? If push comes to shove I would prefer Dhawan as no 3 because I seriously believe Poms aren't stupid enough to give us greentops considering how wobbly their batsmen look these days. Also Aus has pattas and rewards strokeplay, Dhawan may be a better no 3 if Pujara flunks badly......Pujara has been given the longest rope yet FACT. Only thing Dhawan shouldn't field in slips or gully. 

[Gollum]

We must treat Eng series as 2 separate ones, a 2 test series followed by a 3 test series....will help focus, last time I think we got mentally fatigued just thinking about the length of the series that too overseas. If the top 3 do well (say avg 30+ or 100 balls/innings) in the 1st 2 tests, don't chop and change, keep them for all tests. If they do moderately well (avg 25-30 or 60 balls/innings) keep them for 1 more test and only if they fail in test 3 replace them. If someone flunks badly in the 1st 2 tests replace in test 3. I expect 2 of them to shine and the one who fails should make way for Dhawan for the rest of the series who will take either the opener's slot or no 3 slot. Pitch and conditions will be to our liking, we may even play 2 spinners in September....we are winning the series comfortably if we hold on to our catches, I can stick my neck out, current Eng side is there for the taking. 

[cowboysfan]

the reason why we lost the series,the only reason .our openers suck and you are not going to win outside the SC with guys who cannot dent the new ball and protect the middle order.I also dont see anyone knocking on te doors so the best coure of action is to sen these two way early to england  before the rest pf the team.

[Cricketics]

12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

  Until som one sucks so bad. Don’t tell me M Vijay was the worst here. To me he was the second best Indian batsman

He was as bad as anyone like Pujara but I feel he looked like scoring the least.

 

I want to give him to play as I don’t like too many changes as that spoils the momentum but if we fail in first two tests, I would like to see something different you know, at least something which can make us look different in the third test. That is my whole point.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Gollum said:

@Cricketics why are you so adamant about Pujara at no 3? He is a beast in Asia but after his stellar SA tour (2013-14) he has failed in NZ, Eng, Aus and SA. Why such a long rope for him? If push comes to shove I would prefer Dhawan as no 3 because I seriously believe Poms aren't stupid enough to give us greentops considering how wobbly their batsmen look these days. Also Aus has pattas and rewards strokeplay, Dhawan may be a better no 3 if Pujara flunks badly......Pujara has been given the longest rope yet FACT. Only thing Dhawan shouldn't field in slips or gully. 

Agree Pujara has failed, I feel Pujara has the luxury of batting long and facing less of the newer ball than Vijay which is harder to olay. And because of that I feel Vijay as he ages is more likely to get worse than Pujara. 

 

My whole thing is Pujara seems to be the backbone of Indian top middle order when Rahane was failing at home. Pujara kept scoring even then, with Kohli and Rahul. So it makes sense to depend on this guy. 

 

Vijay again has tough task since he faces new ball, and I beliee he will only get worse than improve at this age and hence my more concern for him than anyone

[Cricketics]

6 minutes ago, Gollum said:

We must treat Eng series as 2 separate ones, a 2 test series followed by a 3 test series....will help focus, last time I think we got mentally fatigued just thinking about the length of the series that too overseas. If the top 3 do well (say avg 30+ or 100 balls/innings) in the 1st 2 tests, don't chop and change, keep them for all tests. If they do moderately well (avg 25-30 or 60 balls/innings) keep them for 1 more test and only if they fail in test 3 replace them. If someone flunks badly in the 1st 2 tests replace in test 3. I expect 2 of them to shine and the one who fails should make way for Dhawan for the rest of the series who will take either the opener's slot or no 3 slot. Pitch and conditions will be to our liking, we may even play 2 spinners in September....we are winning the series comfortably if we hold on to our catches, I can stick my neck out, current Eng side is there for the taking. 

Thats a better assesment.

 

we can’t give the same failing batting line up run uptill 5 tests. Monitor their performance after 2-3 tests and go on from there.

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, Cricketics said:

Agree Pujara has failed, I feel Pujara has the luxury of batting long and facing less of the newer ball than Vijay which is harder to olay. And because of that I feel Vijay as he ages is more likely to get worse than Pujara. 

 

My whole thing is Pujara seems to be the backbone of Indian top middle order when Rahane was failing at home. Pujara kept scoring even then, with Kohli and Rahul. So it makes sense to depend on this guy. 

 

Vijay again has tough task since he faces new ball, and I beliee he will only get worse than improve at this age and hence my more concern for him than anyone

Vijay and Saha are on their last legs, better to extract whatever left in the coming 2 years overseas before gradually easing in the Shaws and Pants in home matches. Pujara hasn't been our backbone overseas for a long time, even Rahane has more meaningful knocks in Asia than Pujara outside Asia. If Pujara fails in the 1st 2 tests in Eng he will be 16 tests in SA/Eng/NZ/Aus without a 100 and only with a couple of 50s to show, even Bhuvi and Ash have better returns than that. I feel Pujara is the most vulnerable candidate in our present line up and he can't complain because he has been given a continuous run by the management. In the future we may have to play Pujara+Nair in home matches (both excellent against spin) and Rahane+(?) in away matches.....if spinners and quicks can be dropped based on home away basis, we may need to look into a home batting order and away batting order.

 

We need to find that (?) as no 3 or no 5 in the next batch of overseas tours, surely some kid will emerge.

[chewy]

No way Vijay should be under scanner, he did his job in usual than tougher conditions

this series should take into account balls faced as well runs 

many batsmen who managed to face 300 plus balls in this series should be taken as moderate success

 

this series has confirmed Vijay, Pujara and Rahane for England need to play first 3 tests

 

Pujara and Vijay should really open, Rahane at 3, Rahul at 5 

[Cricketics]

35 minutes ago, chewy said:

No way Vijay should be under scanner, he did his job in usual than tougher conditions

this series should take into account balls faced as well runs 

many batsmen who managed to face 300 plus balls in this series should be taken as moderate success

 

this series has confirmed Vijay, Pujara and Rahane for England need to play first 3 tests

 

Pujara and Vijay should really open, Rahane at 3, Rahul at 5 

Too much changing and chopping of Rahul’s position will screw him up. He already had good success as an opener then why should we remove him as an opener? 

[Cricketics]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

 

We need to find that (?) as no 3 or no 5 in the next batch of overseas tours, surely some kid will emerge.

In that situation I rather play someone from too domestic cricket run scorer and have him open the innings with Rahul than send Pujara to open. I might replace Pujara with Rahane at 3 if Pujara continues to fail but to replace an opener we don’t need to make so many changes at once that we are shifting Pujara to open etc. Why not just award th top Ranji opener then and give him the chance then. Someone like Priyank Panchal etc or whoever is doing well then.

 

[Khota]

Vijay and Rahul are the beshtest boyj on team. Dont say baad things abt them.

[Gollum]

36 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

In that situation I rather play someone from too domestic cricket run scorer and have him open the innings with Rahul than send Pujara to open. I might replace Pujara with Rahane at 3 if Pujara continues to fail but to replace an opener we don’t need to make so many changes at once that we are shifting Pujara to open etc. Why not just award th top Ranji opener then and give him the chance then. Someone like Priyank Panchal etc or whoever is doing well then.

 

I was assuming Shaw/Rahul/(top Ranji opener) will open in the 2021-23 overseas cycle. Current cycle Rahul/Vijay/Dhawan will do the job. Main issue is if Pujara improves or not. He may well become unselectable overseas and undroppable at home, just the opposite of Rahane. Nair can fill in for Jinx at home, we need a new kid to fill in for Pujara in case things don't improve and that person has to come from the domestic scene. Kohli at no 4 is a certainty, just the 3 and 5 positions need a relook at in the future. Unlike you I am losing patience with Pujara, he has failed in 4 consecutive overseas tours and that is unpardonable for a no 3. 

[Cricketics]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I was assuming Shaw/Rahul/(top Ranji opener) will open in the 2021-23 overseas cycle. Current cycle Rahul/Vijay/Dhawan will do the job. Main issue is if Pujara improves or not. He may well become unselectable overseas and undroppable at home, just the opposite of Rahane. Nair can fill in for Jinx at home, we need a new kid to fill in for Pujara in case things don't improve and that person has to come from the domestic scene. Kohli at no 4 is a certainty, just the 3 and 5 positions need a relook at in the future. Unlike you I am losing patience with Pujara, he has failed in 4 consecutive overseas tours and that is unpardonable for a no 3. 

Pujara’s case is similar to Ashwin. He keeps getting picked for overseas even though he ha smiserable past record because Ashwin is one of the best if. Ot the best bowler in Indian conditions, you just can’t drop such top bowler from the squad.

 

Similarly, you just can’t drop Pujara from the squad based on his past poor average away from home when he has been excellent. I mean we all agree, or at least I hope we all are on the same page that even though Pujara hasn’t be as successful away from home as we ould have liked, he is not like Rohit Sharma, who also fails away from home regularly but is a far worse test batsman than Pujara.

 

Pujara needs slight adjustment and this was everyone’s first big away tour in a long long time so we have to stick with Pujara.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, Cricketics said:

He was as bad as anyone like Pujara but I feel he looked like scoring the least.

 

I want to give him to play as I don’t like too many changes as that spoils the momentum but if we fail in first two tests, I would like to see something different you know, at least something which can make us look different in the third test. That is my whole point.

 

 

Agree Pujara has failed, I feel Pujara has the luxury of batting long and facing less of the newer ball than Vijay which is harder to olay. And because of that I feel Vijay as he ages is more likely to get worse than Pujara. 

 

My whole thing is Pujara seems to be the backbone of Indian top middle order when Rahane was failing at home. Pujara kept scoring even then, with Kohli and Rahul. So it makes sense to depend on this guy. 

 

Vijay again has tough task since he faces new ball, and I beliee he will only get worse than improve at this age and hence my more concern for him than anyone

You don't make changes just for the sake of making change without any sensible logic. Most of your concerns are arbitrary.  Unless you suggest Pujara open (which he will surely suck at) M Vijay is the best opener in India if you talk about overseas. It is quiet surprising you were not able to appreciate his methodical denting of SA attack. Tell me one Indian Test batsman present or past that could have done the same bar Gavaskar. M Vijay has done it over and over in his last overseas tours. Imagine Kohli walking at 4/2 in 2nd over everytime. He would be gone as wel. M Vijay's blunting is the difference between 75 all out and 250.  At 33 batsman has to be dropped? since when?  M Vijay made back to back to centuries only in the last series.  Even in India on the offchance India provides a helpful surface to opposition M Vijay will be the only one who is more likely to survive.  He is an all season player.  He  may eventually run out of form. THat is not the case now.  He had a poor series where almost everyone was poor bar few.  Even in this series without practice had two decent knocks if you look at the context.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

28 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Pujara’s case is similar to Ashwin. He keeps getting picked for overseas even though he ha smiserable past record because Ashwin is one of the best if. Ot the best bowler in Indian conditions, you just can’t drop such top bowler from the squad.

 

Similarly, you just can’t drop Pujara from the squad based on his past poor average away from home when he has been excellent. I mean we all agree, or at least I hope we all are on the same page that even though Pujara hasn’t be as successful away from home as we ould have liked, he is not like Rohit Sharma, who also fails away from home regularly but is a far worse test batsman than Pujara.

 

Pujara needs slight adjustment and this was everyone’s first big away tour in a long long time so we have to stick with Pujara.

 

 

Pujara failed in county cricket as well. So you never know he will succeed. When the ball is moving everybody bar Vijay is a sitting duck. Only now Kohli has found his measure.

[Gollum]

51 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Pujara’s case is similar to Ashwin. He keeps getting picked for overseas even though he ha smiserable past record because Ashwin is one of the best if. Ot the best bowler in Indian conditions, you just can’t drop such top bowler from the squad.

 

Similarly, you just can’t drop Pujara from the squad based on his past poor average away from home when he has been excellent. I mean we all agree, or at least I hope we all are on the same page that even though Pujara hasn’t be as successful away from home as we ould have liked, he is not like Rohit Sharma, who also fails away from home regularly but is a far worse test batsman than Pujara.

 

Pujara needs slight adjustment and this was everyone’s first big away tour in a long long time so we have to stick with Pujara.

 

 

I am a big fan of Pujara but losing patience. Ashwin brings more to the table because he even averages more with the bat than Pujara outside Asia (I am not saying he is better because Pujara faces the newish ball against fresh quicks). With the ball he is a match winner in WI, better than Murali/Bhajji/Swann/Ajmal in Aus and decent in SA/Eng. I wouldn't lump the two as similar. One is at least trying to improve while the other has been on a downward spiral for the last 4 years. Even his county stint was unsuccessful, but I support Pujara and want him to silence all critics in England. Hope he gets another county stint where he can fine tune his shortcomings. 

 

And agree with the part about Rohit. In hindsight playing Dhawan in the 1st test wasn't a glaring mistake but playing Rohit in place of Rahane was a Himalayan blunder by Kohli. 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Gollum

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I am a big fan of Pujara but losing patience. Ashwin brings more to the table because he even averages more with the bat than Pujara outside Asia (I am not saying he is better because Pujara faces the newish ball against fresh quicks). With the ball he is a match winner in WI, better than Murali/Bhajji/Swann/Ajmal in Aus and decent in SA/Eng. I wouldn't lump the two as similar. One is at least trying to improve while the other has been on a downward spiral for the last 4 years. Even his county stint was unsuccessful, but I support Pujara and want him to silence all critics in England. Hope he gets another county stint where he can fine tune his shortcomings. 

 

And agree with the part about Rohit. In hindsight playing Dhawan in the 1st test wasn't a glaring mistake but playing Rohit in place of Rahane was a Himalayan blunder by Kohli. 

This "lazy elegance" against Sri Lanka trundlers came back to bite us badly.  M VIjay , Rahul, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane  They should have never touched this line up.  First time they are playing this line up. We are already in better position. 

[Cricketics]

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You don't make changes just for the sake of making change without any sensible logic. Most of your concerns are arbitrary.  Unless you suggest Pujara open (which he will surely suck at) M Vijay is the best opener in India if you talk about overseas. It is quiet surprising you were not able to appreciate his methodical denting of SA attack. Tell me one Indian Test batsman present or past that could have done the same bar Gavaskar. M Vijay has done it over and over in his last overseas tours. Imagine Kohli walking at 4/2 in 2nd over everytime. He would be gone as wel. M Vijay's blunting is the difference between 75 all out and 250.  At 33 batsman has to be dropped? since when?  M Vijay made back to back to centuries only in the last series.  Even in India on the offchance India provides a helpful surface to opposition M Vijay will be the only one who is more likely to survive.  He is an all season player.  He  may eventually run out of form. THat is not the case now.  He had a poor series where almost everyone was poor bar few.  Even in this series without practice had two decent knocks if you look at the context.

 

 

Who is saying to drop him now right away? Read the OP or other posts, the talk is about the middle of the series if we continue to fail. The whole idea of the thread is to be ready for what is to come if we keep failing as a team which we have in terms of batting unit on thiis tour.

 

All this past 2-3 weeks, we have discussed how our batsmen are struggling.

 

I am not for making too many changes but if we are failing for another couple of games as a batting unit like we did in this series, we must make changes is all I am saying. And changes means removing someone and when you want someone to be removed, of course openers will be mentioned since they are also part of the failing batting line up and critical to our chances.

 

My main concern is Vijay, like yours is Pujara. You are not wrong in sharing that opinion and even though I won’t agree with one’s sentiments about dropping Pujara at this time if they tell me, its a legitimate concern that he has performed badly in the series.

 

Yes, Vijay’s resume is impressive and he bas done well in the past. But it is only good until middle of the series. He has failed in this series over all, and its fine that he is not dropped because he has served Indian cricket well and we can still bank on him to score and save us again, and for that he should be selected again and be persisted with for England tour. But we have to draw a line somewhere in terms of how many failures he is allowed to have, and for me that is till the middle of the series in England, otherwise we will be doing the same thing as we did in 2011 by not making changes after our failires and keeping the same line up based on the past laurels, which will only show that we have learned nothing from 0-8 from 2011.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cricketics]

31 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Pujara failed in county cricket as well. So you never know he will succeed. When the ball is moving everybody bar Vijay is a sitting duck. Only now Kohli has found his measure.

Yes he did, I hope to see Pujara suceed. He might not and migjh disappoint me and many who knows but I believe top-middle order batsman like him  is the core and hence I am ready to give him a long run for at least this whole series in England