Pakistan's Hidden Shame

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Alam_dar said:

May be. 

But in may personal experience, Europe is very much free of Christian religious circumcision. Actually they discouraged it. 

 

Ok, I googled and found this:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_male_circumcision

 

Many countries with majorities of Christian adherents have low circumcision rates (as in Europe and South America), while both religious and non-religious circumcision is common in some predominantly Christian countries such as the United States,^[2] and the Philippines, Canada,^[3] and in North and West Africa and it is common in countries such as the Cameroon,^[3] Democratic Republic of the Congo,^[3] Ethiopia,^[3] Eritrea,^[3] Ghana,^[3] Liberia,^[3] Nigeria^[3] and Kenya,^[3] Male circumcision is also widely practiced among Christians from South Korea, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Palestine, Israel, and North Africa.^[1] Circumcision is nearly universal in the Christian countries of Oceania.^[4] While The Catholic Church has condemned religious circumcision for its members, and currently maintains a neutral position on the practice of non-religious circumcision,^[5] Coptic Christianity and Ethiopian Orthodoxy and Eritrean Orthodoxy still observe male circumcision and practice circumcision as a rite of passage.^[6][7][1]

 

Its not about the populace - its about the clergymen. Almost all clergymen are circumcised. 

[Alam_dar]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

This physiological change, is not done in a generation or two. Its done over centuries/millenias.

 

The reason why Punjabis, Pashtoons, etc. are taller than rest of the subcontinentals, is because they are, relatively speaking, 'new arrivals' from Central Asia and thus have far less farmed history. 

If you wish, i can post an article about correlation between long term farming and decrease in stature. Its the same reason Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Iraqis are shorter in stature than people like Russians, Germans, Iranians, Mongols : 
The former cultures started to farm a lot earlier than the latter ones. And before we had modern transportation/logistics system, farming societies were poorer in nutrition than hunter-gatherer societies, due to far less variety of foods farmed. 

 

Thank you for the information. 

 

Japanese/Chinese were short in stature and their eyes were small. But if we look at their 4th or 5th generations who are living in US, then they have become taller and their eyes are also big and wide open.  

 

I think one of the main reason was this that the Chinese ate rice and consumed no milk after 2 years breast feeding from their mothers. But their younger generations in US consume as much wheat and milk as normal Americans, therefore they are becoming taller too. 

[Singh bling]

27 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

believe younger generations of Pashtoons in Karachi are though still stronger and taller than muhajirs of Karachi, but not as strong/taller as Pashtoons in Khaibar Pukhtoonkhawa areas. 

After all, we are what we eat. 

 

There are Pashtoons who settled in India couple of hundered years ago. Their present generations are similar to Indian Muslims. 

 

Well I think our eyes actually cannot tell

What is average height of a group.We consider People with few extremely tall people as Tall community.If one will look at West Indian team from 70s one will assume their average height is 6-2"but Nowhere I found on net that Jamaica or other carribean nation have such tall height

33 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

also noticed that Sikhs are very tall and strong and I always wondered why? 

 

Could you please shed some light if food of Sikhs is different than food of UP? Or is there difference of water in Indian Punjab and UP?

The Rural Jatt Sikhs are tall, rest like us are average or below average.

For food Its better you you read Robert

Mc carrison work which he did in undivided India on diets

 

https://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/a-good-natural-diet/

 

He choose Hunza , Pathan and Sikh Diet as best.He actually did experiment on rats too.The above link has few information though not all

[Muloghonto]

24 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Thank you for the information. 

 

Japanese/Chinese were short in stature and their eyes were small. But if we look at their 4th or 5th generations who are living in US, then they have become taller and their eyes are also big and wide open.  

 

I think one of the main reason was this that the Chinese ate rice and consumed no milk after 2 years breast feeding from their mothers. But their younger generations in US consume as much wheat and milk as normal Americans, therefore they are becoming taller too. 

This is because in the US, modern logistics mean you can have a very varied diet, that is not available in traditional farming diets.

For eg, in the US, you can eat avocados. Who eats avocados in India or Pakistan ? No one- because we dont farm it there. 

 

[Gollum]

One can only imagine and weep at the horrors our ancestors had to go through for centuries under Islamic rule. Proud that they didn't yield to the invaders and remained true to their religion. I can't imagine how tough it must have been for most of the ancestors of modern day Hindus to abide by their religion during reigns of genocidal fanatics, the weak among them converted and yet take great pride in the religion bestowed upon them by their masters. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Gollum

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

One can only imagine and weep at the horrors our ancestors had to go through for centuries under Islamic rule. Proud that they didn't yield to the invaders and remained true to their religion. I can't imagine how tough it must have been for most of the ancestors of modern day Hindus to abide by their religion during reigns of genocidal fanatics, the weak among them converted and yet take great pride in the religion bestowed upon them by their masters. 

It wasn't the weak amongst them that converted- quite the opposite: it was the powerful and the upper class that converted.

The trader caste almost completely converted, simply because with Indonesia and everything west of us up to Greece being muslim, it gave them survivability in the Islamic world, which controlled trade from India. 

 

The ruling classes converted too - simply because, it averted jihad for them ( ie, Islamists are tolerant of a muslim ruler, ruling kaffirs and saying 'conversion process is underway' than a kaffir ruler).

The ones who mostly escaped without conversion, were the villagers - because of India's climate, we are the land of million villages. Ie, too numerous and covering too big an area to convert. Not to mention, nobody cares about villagers themselves- so long as they keep paying taxes (chauth, whatever), the rulers are happy.

 

[Gollum]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

It wasn't the weak amongst them that converted- quite the opposite: it was the powerful and the upper class that converted.

The trader caste almost completely converted, simply because with Indonesia and everything west of us up to Greece being muslim, it gave them survivability in the Islamic world, which controlled trade from India. 

 

The ruling classes converted too - simply because, it averted jihad for them ( ie, Islamists are tolerant of a muslim ruler, ruling kaffirs and saying 'conversion process is underway' than a kaffir ruler).

The ones who mostly escaped without conversion, were the villagers - because of India's climate, we are the land of million villages. Ie, too numerous and covering too big an area to convert. Not to mention, nobody cares about villagers themselves- so long as they keep paying taxes (chauth, whatever), the rulers are happy.

 

Nice info man. When I said weak I wasn't thinking along socio-economic lines, I was thinking more in terms of morally weak or so to speak the cowardly ones. While it wouldn't be appropriate to label all the converts as cowards, many did convert because of fear of the sword. It is debatable whether what they did was common sense/opportunistic business sense/political ambition etc but many of our ancestors did opt to stick to their roots rather than convert, taking in stride all the humiliation and violence that infidels were subjugated to under Islamic administration and jurisprudence. Also many of the local rulers fought to the end rather than bending over backwards to accept an alien faith/culture...that is why I laugh when many Pakistanis choose to take pride in their Islamic past whilst simultaneously looking down upon Hindus as the ones who were meek, cowardly and ruled over for centuries by Muslim overlords. I think by sticking to their ancient past, our Hindu forefathers showed exemplary courage in the face of hostile rulers. They could have taken the easy way out and thus escaped from harsh revenue systems, property taxes, jizya, biased legal sytem etc but they didn't !!!!

[Muloghonto]

14 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Nice info man. When I said weak I wasn't thinking along socio-economic lines, I was thinking more in terms of morally weak or so to speak the cowardly ones. While it wouldn't be appropriate to label all the converts as cowards, many did convert because of fear of the sword. It is debatable whether what they did was common sense/opportunistic business sense/political ambition etc but many of our ancestors did opt to stick to their roots rather than convert, taking in stride all the humiliation and violence that infidels were subjugated to under Islamic administration and jurisprudence. Also many of the local rulers fought to the end rather than bending over backwards to accept an alien faith/culture...that is why I laugh when many Pakistanis choose to take pride in their Islamic past whilst simultaneously looking down upon Hindus as the ones who were meek, cowardly and ruled over for centuries by Muslim overlords. I think by sticking to their ancient past, our Hindu forefathers showed exemplary courage in the face of hostile rulers. They could have taken the easy way out and thus escaped from harsh revenue systems, property taxes, jizya, biased legal sytem etc but they didn't !!!!

The bolded part, is incorrect way of thinking. 

ALL human beings are more or less the same. We respond to the same pressures largely along the same lines and vice versa.

Its not just in India - in Persia too, the nobles and rich converted right away. Same with spread of Christianity. The reason is simple - for authoritarian religions, its the upper classes who have far greater incentive to change & far bigger consequences for not changing.

A village farmer, for eg, does not care one way or another, until someone shows up and threatens to kill him if he doesn't convert. Whether its hindu, muslim or atheist- he knows that the rulers will come every harvest, get their chauth and * off.

Now, if you are a trader- you stand to lose a lot more by not converting/gain a lot more by converting when the time is opportune. 

 

its not cowardly, its something everyone would do if they were in the same position. 

 

Its not surprising that India wasn't able to resist the Islamic push into India, yet India remained largely unconverted. 
This is easy to explain : our elites, like elites all over the world, converted to the dominant religion. But unlike rest of the world (China is our only comparable), our non-elites were way too numerous, especially given the deserts to our west (and thus, their people always were at a demographic disadvantage), with far less incentive to convert.

[Singh bling]

8 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

The bolded part, is incorrect way of thinking. 

ALL human beings are more or less the same. We respond to the same pressures largely along the same lines and vice versa.

Its not just in India - in Persia too, the nobles and rich converted right away. Same with spread of Christianity. The reason is simple - for authoritarian religions, its the upper classes who have far greater incentive to change & far bigger consequences for not changing.

A village farmer, for eg, does not care one way or another, until someone shows up and threatens to kill him if he doesn't convert. Whether its hindu, muslim or atheist- he knows that the rulers will come every harvest, get their chauth and * off.

Now, if you are a trader- you stand to lose a lot more by not converting/gain a lot more by converting when the time is opportune. 

 

its not cowardly, its something everyone would do if they were in the same position. 

 

Its not surprising that India wasn't able to resist the Islamic push into India, yet India remained largely unconverted. 
This is easy to explain : our elites, like elites all over the world, converted to the dominant religion. But unlike rest of the world (China is our only comparable), our non-elites were way too numerous, especially given the deserts to our west (and thus, their people always were at a demographic disadvantage), with far less incentive to convert.

You are not fully right here, traders are always small in numbers but Undivided India's muslim population exceed 0.5 billions .Also the biggest traders among South Asians , Gujarati's are still very much Hindu.Punjabi's and Bengali's converted in very large numbers and most of them were poor Farmers.I think Sufi's were responsible for most of these conversions

[panther]

As for height I read somewhere only about 15% of males have the genes for height I.e. 6 and above so it's all genetic for the most part.

 

 

[Singh bling]

8 minutes ago, panther said:

As for height I read somewhere only about 15% of males have the genes for height I.e. 6 and above so it's all genetic for the most part.

 

 

Its not true , the way Chinese , Japanese and few other nations have increased their height in just 40-50 years clearly tell that height has more relation with diet rather than Genetics.Dutch men which were measured at 5-4.5" average in early 1800s are now 6-1" average , means almost majority of men are now six feet

[Stradlater]

19 hours ago, Singh bling said:

Its not true , the way Chinese , Japanese and few other nations have increased their height in just 40-50 years clearly tell that height has more relation with diet rather than Genetics.Dutch men which were measured at 5-4.5" average in early 1800s are now 6-1" average , means almost majority of men are now six feet

In feudal Europe, an average European Knight was shorter compared to his subcontinental counterpart. Heck even till 16th-17th centuries an average Englishman was around 5'6 or 5'7.

Things started to change for better after industrial revolution.

[MechEng]

21 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Thank you for the information. 

 

Japanese/Chinese were short in stature and their eyes were small. But if we look at their 4th or 5th generations who are living in US, then they have become taller and their eyes are also big and wide open.  

 

I think one of the main reason was this that the Chinese ate rice and consumed no milk after 2 years breast feeding from their mothers. But their younger generations in US consume as much wheat and milk as normal Americans, therefore they are becoming taller too. 

Don't know why, but found it funny! 

Edited April 17, 2018 by MechEng

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Don't know why, but found it funny! 

Same here

[MechEng]

21 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Same here

It's as if milk and wheat opened their eyes, 'widened' their perspective. 

[MechEng]

On 4/16/2018 at 4:33 AM, Alam_dar said:

May be this is also one of the reasons. Certainly sensitive part of penis rubs a lot with the clothes in the absence of foreskin. 

Nevertheless, then question arises why the European Christian Priests are involved in such type of activities while they are  also not circumcised. There main reason seems to be avoiding sex with the women. 

 

I have not seen enough of Hindu/Buddhist monks in Pakistan, but I could imagine that it may be due to the following one or other factors:

 

(1) Hindu Monks get more interaction with the women as women are visiting them for prayers. 

In Pakistan, molvies and even normal people are totally cut off from interacting with the women. 

 

(2) These monks do Yoga and meditation which perhaps help them in this regards. 

 

(3) The vegetarian diet may be the reason. 

There seems to be a big debate if becoming vegan increases sexuality or decreases it. 

 

(Nevertheless, people of Karachi are although meat eaters, but this problem of Bacheybazi is not present there. Also it seems that this problem is also not present among the Muslim and Christian and Hindu meat eaters of India too). 

 

(4) Other diet habits may also be a reason. 

 

Indian vegan food seems to be heavily dependant on Puri and Halwa and Paratha and Samosa and Pakoras and Ladu and other India Sweets ... And they are oily foods and not very good for health. Also I don't think that very spicy food is good for health. 

 

Therefore, I feel that normal Indians are less in height and body than the normal Pashtoons and Punjabies of Pakistan. 

 

The people of Karachi are even eating meat, but still they are more similar to Indians in height and weight as compared to Pashtoons/Punjabies. 

 

If I am not mistaken, then there were debates where it was said that normal Indian men are not so much sexually active and penis size is small too. If it is true, then I could imagine that it could be due to the wrong eating habits, lack of exercise etc. More research is needed in order to find out the reasons for this. 

That is a big misconception about Indian food, even my roommates who are from Britain and Jamaica thought I ate butter chicken every third day, this perception of course changed after they saw what I cooked daily.

 

Traditional Indian diet is daal, chapati and some stir fried vegetable, this is what at least 95% of the country eats everyday, and the vegetable/curries are moderately spiced, nothing like vindaloo.

Edited April 17, 2018 by MechEng

[Singh bling]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

That is a big misconception about Indian food, even my roommates who are from Britain and Jamaica thought I ate butter chicken every third day, this perception of course changed after they saw what I cooked daily.

 

Traditional Indian diet is daal, chapati and some stir fried vegetable, this is what at least 95% of the country eats everyday, and the vegetable/curries are moderately spiced, nothing like vindaloo.

This is the most tasteless food Indian vegetarians eat.Villagers that have cows and Buffaloes drink milk and eat curd in large quantity.

 

Tasty vegetarian food is pakoda samosa chhollet bhaturey , jalebi , Samosa etc.So whenever Indian vegetarians have some money they just relish on these.

[Alam_dar]

I have still one question open. 

Is there a difference between traditional Punjabi (Indian)/Sikh food and the UP vegetarian food? 

 

There must be some reason that Indian Punjabi Sikhs are bigger in stature than all others, including Pakistani Punjabies / Indian non-Sikh punjabies and pashtoons). 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Alam_dar

[Stradlater]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

I have still one question open. 

Is there a difference between traditional Punjabi (Indian)/Sikh food and the UP vegetarian food? 

 

There must be some reason that Indian Punjabi Sikhs are bigger in stature than all others, including Pakistani Punjabies / Indian non-Sikh punjabies and pashtoons). 

Rajasthanis and Haryanvis are the same size as Sikhs as well.

Infact Haryanvis deserve a special mention here. The small state in this CWG had more gold medals than the entire rest of the India and other south asian countries combined.

 

Quite resilient those people are. They love their milk and lassi for sure.

[Singh bling]

1 hour ago, Alam_dar said:

I have still one question open. 

Is there a difference between traditional Punjabi (Indian)/Sikh food and the UP vegetarian food? 

 

There must be some reason that Indian Punjabi Sikhs are bigger in stature than all others, including Pakistani Punjabies / Indian non-Sikh punjabies and pashtoons). 

I gave you link of Robert mccarrison study on sikh diet  ,did you read that??.

 

It will give you insight of what sikhs ate . Unfortunately from in 20th century , there was onslaught on sikh diet by Sikh orthodox Vegetarians as well as so many Baba's that emerged in Punjab So what sikhs were eating in upto mid 20th century and now are very different.Meat particularly Goat meat which was part of their diet is slowly weaned of because of high price and vegetarianism