All Rounders do not exist.

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 minutes ago, Khota said:

Indian team is not a place for player development. iIf you cannot hit the ground running you have no place in the team. Pace bowling is tough and is not a part time job.

most rubbsh line ever

every player develop only by playing . Players evolve mature by playing and that has stood for even legends . 

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

u can only develop by playing like those 2 did .....thats why their perfomances are up around 30 test mark but they had to play that much

Even Kallis did not have great numbers in his first 2 yrs iirc .... Teams back the talent that has been identified and fast tracked .... Pandya is definitely among the top talents in the country

 

Avgs 60+ with the bat in Asia. Has 50+ scores in SA and Eng. Won us a test with the ball in Eng

Edited February 15, 2019 by zen

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 minutes ago, Khota said:

This @Ankit_sharma03 will never understand.

irony is the person statement ur highlighting is himself talking about stokes n holder who evolved around 30 test . 

[putrevus]

8 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Not just a good bowler but Holder has worked hard on his batting as well .  Test 200 is not a joke.  Surely Holder was good to make odd 50's but the 200 must have come as pleasant upgrade for WI fans.

People keep referring Pandya and Kapil in same sentence. Kapil transformed  Indian cricket from his debut in 1978 .He walked into his team as a bowler from day 1 and he was good enough to pick up 100 wickets in 25 tests.

 

Kapil like other fab four  worked becuase they could walk into their team as bowlers.Pandya has 17 wickets in 11 tests.Question is can he become one of the best batsmen in the country answer is resounding no.

 

Holder become a better bowler to justify his place, what will Pandya do to justify his place.

 

 

 

[Straight Drive]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

People keep referring Pandya and Kapil in same sentence. Kapil transformed  Indian cricket from his debut in 1978 .He walked into his team as a bowler from day 1 and he was good enough to pick up 100 wickets in 25 tests.

 

Kapil like other fab four  worked becuase they could walk into their team as bowlers.Pandya has 17 wickets in 11 tests.Question is can he become one of the best batsmen in the country answer is resounding no.

 

Holder become a better bowler to justify his place, what will Pandya do to justify his place.

 

 

 

I don't want to get into the Pandya debate atleast on this thread. It's comical if you check the various posts on this thread. Some childish stuff goes about that from both sides (his supporters and detractors) and i prefer to stay away from such things.

 

I was just referring to your observation about Holder. What do you think about Holder as a batsman.

 

 

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Straight Drive said:

I don't want to get into the Pandya debate atleast on this thread. It's comical if you check the various posts on this thread. Some childish stuff goes about that from both sides (his supporters and detractors) and i prefer to stay away from such things.

 

I was just referring to your observation about Holder. What do you think about Holder as a batsman.

 

 

I have nothing against Pandya , I hope he becomes great. I referred about Kapil because you must seen him from his debut and wanted to get your thoughts on Pandya and how you compare him with great man.

[Straight Drive]

42 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I have nothing against Pandya , I hope he becomes great. I referred about Kapil because you must seen him from his debut and wanted to get your thoughts on Pandya and how you compare him with great man.

I think you got me wrong here. Never mentioned you have anything against Pandya.

 

I have watched only last 3 years of Sobers career, full careers of Kapil, Bothan, Imran Khan  and Hadlee. Only Kallis was genuinely in that class.  Chris Cairns was the only all-rounder who came close to them as proper test match all-rounder.  

 

I would not compare Pandya with any of the all-rounders i have mentioned above because those are World ATG.

 

Pandya has to be looked in isolation rather than in comaprison. I would say that because Pandya is new comer to test cricket. Any all-rounder who has played 11 tests is going to look very bad when compared to World ATG all-rounders.

 

Now looking at him in isolation; Pandya is a wonderful player for us in ODI and T20i. There is no doubt about it that he is one of the top 5 players in ODI team. They all are sure shot selections and form core part of ODI and T20i.

 

In tests, Pandya has hardly played 11 tests iirc and he is getting dropped from the test team. Captain does not has faith in him. In some matches he bowls only 4 overs. Even Eknath Solkar and Abid Ali  used to bowl more than Pandya in tests. Currently he needs to be managed well by captain given that he is in nascent stage of test career.  When he drops Pandya, he should free him to play Ranji cricket. He already had few months break as he was recovering from back injury. Kohli just extended his break by dropping him for two more weeks (two tests). Match experience (Pandya could have played 2 Ranji matches) during that time, rather than getting called for tour and being made to sit on bench. Also, Pandya should upgrade his skills , otherwise an upgrade in actual perfromances isn't possible. It has to be two way effort - fromt he captain as well as the player himself. Ian Chappell helped develop Dennis Lillee and we all know what a great bowler Lillee become. So Kohli can also manage Pandya properly and help him in getting upgraded. What was impressive about Pandya was that he bought his bowling strike rate very low. It was 88 six months back. Now it is 55. Which means that he has improved his bowling significantly. While this improvement came, he got injured and it became a setback which dragged him back. A injury free career would be very useful if he has to make a upgrade in what he acheives in test cricket. It's goign to be very tough being an allrounder in test as compared to all-rounder in T20i and ODI.

 

I wiould appreciate if you comment on Holders batting.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Straight Drive

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

I think you got me wrong here. Never mentioned you have anything against Pandya.

 

I have watched only last 3 years of Sobers career, full careers of Kapil, Bothan, Imran Khan  and Hadlee. Only Kallis was genuinely in that class.  Chris Cairns was the only all-rounder who came close to them as proper test match all-rounder.  

 

I would not compare Pandya with any of the all-rounders i have mentioned above because those are World ATG.

 

Pandya has to be looked in isolation rather than in comaprison. I would say that because Pandya is new comer to test cricket. Any all-rounder who has played 11 tests is going to look very bad when compared to World ATG all-rounders.

 

Now looking at him in isolation; Pandya is a wonderful player for us in ODI and T20i. There is no doubt about it that he is one of the top 5 players in ODI team. They all are sure shot selections and form core part of ODI and T20i.

 

In tests, Pandya has hardly played 11 tests iirc and he is getting dropped from the test team. Captain does not has faith in him. In some matches he bowls only 4 overs. Even Eknath Solkar and Abid Ali  used to bowl more than Pandya in tests. Currently he needs to be managed well by captain given that he is in nascent stage of test career.  When he drops Pandya, he should free him to play Ranji cricket. He already had few months break as he was recovering from back injury. Kohli just extended his break by dropping him for two more weeks (two tests). Match experience (Pandya could have played 2 Ranji matches) during that time, rather than getting called for tour and being made to sit on bench. Also, Pandya should upgrade his skills , otherwise an upgrade in actual perfromances isn't possible. It has to be two way effort - fromt he captain as well as the player himself. Ian Chappell helped develop Dennis Lillee and we all know what a great bowler Lillee become. So Kohli can also manage Pandya properly and help him in getting upgraded. What was impressive about Pandya was that he bought his bowling strike rate very low. It was 88 six months back. Now it is 55. Which means that he has improved his bowling significantly. While this improvement came, he got injured and it became a setback which dragged him back. A injury free career would be very useful if he has to make a upgrade in what he acheives in test cricket. It's goign to be very tough being an allrounder in test as compared to all-rounder in T20i and ODI.

 

I wiould appreciate if you comment on Holders batting.

Regarding Holders batting, I think he is an asset at no 8 any higher than 8 would be too high for him.He always could bat , He scored 100 against England three years back too.But the transformation in his bowling has made him a force in my view.

 

 

[Khota]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

most rubbsh line ever

every player develop only by playing . Players evolve mature by playing and that has stood for even legends . 

We just were discussing Vishy. He did score a century against Australia on debut. At that level you need a finished product.

[Khota]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

irony is the person statement ur highlighting is himself talking about stokes n holder who evolved around 30 test . 

I have the right to selectively agree and disagree.

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, Khota said:

We just were discussing Vishy. He did score a century against Australia on debut. At that level you need a finished product.

no one is a finished product ever

Virat kohli is a diff playe today what he was when he came in 

guys liek zak, yuvi, rohit struggled for yrs n yrs , look at jason holder or kallis 

 

Tendulkar grew over a period of time, maturity comes with comes exp....

 

all this nonsense sounds good in books but never was practical n never wud be. Cricket is a game of humans not robots

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, Khota said:

I have the right to selectively agree and disagree.

yes u do , but do present facts to suppourt it or else it just wud look like that u live in denial 

[Khota]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yes u do , but do present facts to suppourt it or else it just wud look like that u live in denial 

Pot calling kettle black.

[Khota]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

no one is a finished product ever

Virat kohli is a diff playe today what he was when he came in 

guys liek zak, yuvi, rohit struggled for yrs n yrs , look at jason holder or kallis 

 

Tendulkar grew over a period of time, maturity comes with comes exp....

 

all this nonsense sounds good in books but never was practical n never wud be. Cricket is a game of humans not robots

You have no right to struggle for years at that level. Sorry but you should get benched after couple of games.

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 minutes ago, Khota said:

You have no right to struggle for years at that level. Sorry but you should get benched after couple of games.

boom players did nd turned to be legend

as i said the theories u talk about dnt exsist. No 2 individuals are same and some will take more time. Point is back right potential and obv no one can survive doing nothing . They all kept showing something in between including pandya 

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 minutes ago, Khota said:

Pot calling kettle black.

i present facts , u quote one liners thats the diff

[Khota]

4 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

i present facts , u quote one liners thats the diff

You quote meaningless numbers.

 

Here are the facts which I am going to recap.

 

Vijay Shankar: All rounder - does not get to bowl any and only bats. Fact.

pandya A - leaks most runs. fact.

Pandya B - Will not be playing for a while. fact.

 

2 have failed and 3rd is heading that way if his bowling does not improve. fact.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, Khota said:

 

Vijay Shankar: All rounder - does not get to bowl any and only bats. Fact.

yet played damn good knocks in given scenarios. Was our best batsman in 3rd t20

the guy is good enough to play as batsman. 

Just now, Khota said:

pandya A - leaks most runs. fact.

Wrong fact , check stats umesh leaks more. Pandya n Shami eco is same

Just now, Khota said:

Pandya B - Will not be playing for a while. fact.

He wnt be in Wc but won 2 man of matches (when u went silent ) in 2 series 

 

so u see wrong facts 

 

[Rightarmfast]

44 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

I have watched only last 3 years of Sobers career, full careers of Kapil, Bothan, Imran Khan  and Hadlee. Only Kallis was genuinely in that class.  Chris Cairns was the only all-rounder who came close to them as proper test match all-rounder.  

I would not compare Pandya with any of the all-rounders i have mentioned above because those are World ATG.

Pandya has to be looked in isolation rather than in comaprison. I would say that because Pandya is new comer to test cricket. Any all-rounder who has played 11 tests is going to look very bad when compared to World ATG all-rounders.

 

Now looking at him in isolation; Pandya is a wonderful player for us in ODI and T20i. There is no doubt about it that he is one of the top 5 players in ODI team. They all are sure shot selections and form core part of ODI and T20i.

I havent watched Sobers, however I did watch Kapil post 82-83 onwards. There was something common between Chris Cairns, Heath Streak, Abdur razzaq or even Wasim Akram.

And that is they were experts in atleast one of the discipline. Even without batting, Chris Cairns was still NZ's front line bowler, as was Heath Streak for Zim, Wasim for Pak.  There was a definite contribution from them. Sure, they might have had an off day here or there.

 

Whereas, no matter Pandya improving his strike rate from 88 to 55, theres no one discipline he could be said to be a  master of. He is a poor jack in both the trades. Indian test team doesnt need him as a bowler, because there are way better bowlers, neither a batsman coz he can do jacksh*t.

You are right in saying its unfair to compare Pandya, but the thing is, you have to look at things from a perspective. You cant experiment with a player at the cost of the team!

[Khota]

14 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

yet played damn good knocks in given scenarios. Was our best batsman in 3rd t20

the guy is good enough to play as batsman. 

Wrong fact , check stats umesh leaks more. Pandya n Shami eco is same

He wnt be in Wc but won 2 man of matches (when u went silent ) in 2 series 

 

so u see wrong facts 

 

none of the above is playing tests. fact.

2 out of 3 wont be playing odi. fact.

t20 the jury is still out . fact.