Jimmy Anderson - the ultimate bowling version of FTB

[Trichromatic]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:20 PM, putrevus said:

Are you serious. It is like saying Ashwin is not great becuase he does not have great stats in SENA.Anderson with 600 test wickets is mediocre wow.

 

 

Ashwin is not great because he has failed to turn up even on turners outside Asia. No one expects him to be lead bowler away, but he fails to support pacers (1-2 cheap wickets type of support) and he has consistently failed on tracks where he could have lead the attack. 

 

Even in India he fails when opposition attacks him or when conditions are unfavorable.

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

Sanjay Manjrekar is not the right comparison because Manjrekar did well against WI in the late 80s against a gun bowling attack and against a strong Pak bowling line up. His decline started after when he failed to make a mark everywhere including at home.

 

Similarly Ashwin is not the right comparison either because Ashwin has done jack outside the  SC even though has a killer record at home.

 

Apt comparison would be with Anil Kumble. Who was a match winner at home and abroad held one end with consistency and at times won matches as well.

 

Kumble is definetely a 2nd tier ATG in my book and so is Anderson.

Uhm, Kumble is far more successful overseas than Anderson is. Anderson is a serial failure overseas, while Kumble , atleast in the latter half of his career was a matchwinner ever in Australia. Comparison with Ashwin is most apt so far - they are both #1 bowlers at home and #4 bowlers overseas.  

 

Kumble is an ATG because his numbers compare favorably to ALL ATG spinners not named Warne or Murali. 
Anderson is not an ATG because there are about 50 pacers in the history of the game with far superior stats overall. Just that simple. 

 

[Sooda]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Anderson is not an ATG because there are about 50 pacers in the history of the game with far superior stats overall. Just that simple. 

 

Aside from Steyn, Akram, Marshall and Hadlee.... who are the other pacemen with "far superior stats overall"?

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Sooda said:

Aside from Steyn, Akram, Marshall and Hadlee.... who are the other pacemen with "far superior stats overall"?

Erm

Hmm.

Lets see:

Ambrose, Walsh, Holding, Garner, Roberts, Lillee, Donald, Pollock, McGrath, Imran, Trueman, Waqar - we can practically make 2 entire playing XIs of exclusively fast bowlers who are SIGNIFICANTLY ahead of Anderson in overall average and away average. 

With Kumble, you literally have the two greatest spinners of the last 60 years ahead of him - Murali and Warne- then pretty much every other ATG spinner has similar stats like Kumble.......

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I think Jimmy is a little underrated to be honest. Of course the English may consider him the best thing since sliced bread but then they are known for hyping mediocre cricketers. #botham  :P. If you consider his career from mid 2010 onwards , he's had a very good 8 years that was better than most bowlers' careers. As for performances away, i don't think there are many bowlers in this decade who have done great in places like Australia/India etc . Maybe the one odd tour but not consistently over 2-3 tours. Expecting bowlers to have sub 25 average s in every other country is way too high a standard in this era dominated by batsmen. Even Steyn doesn't have that .

 

[Trichromatic]

22 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I think Jimmy is a little underrated to be honest. Of course the English may consider him the best thing since sliced bread but then they are known for hyping mediocre cricketers. #botham  :P. If you consider his career from mid 2010 onwards , he's had a very good 8 years that was better than most bowlers' careers. As for performances away, i don't think there are many bowlers in this decade who have done great in places like Australia/India etc . Maybe the one odd tour but not consistently over 2-3 tours. Expecting bowlers to have sub 25 average s in every other country is way too high a standard in this era dominated by batsmen. Even Steyn doesn't have that .

  

Anderson averages 24 in last 100 tests since 2010. That's the time frame when he was being hailed as great bowler.

 

He averages close to 30 even during this period. Steyn averages 30+ only in Eng and SL with overall average below 25.

 

Btw, great bolwers of any era didn't manage sub-25 in all countries. No one expects Anderson to do that either.

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I think Jimmy is a little underrated to be honest. Of course the English may consider him the best thing since sliced bread but then they are known for hyping mediocre cricketers. #botham  :P. If you consider his career from mid 2010 onwards , he's had a very good 8 years that was better than most bowlers' careers. As for performances away, i don't think there are many bowlers in this decade who have done great in places like Australia/India etc . Maybe the one odd tour but not consistently over 2-3 tours. Expecting bowlers to have sub 25 average s in every other country is way too high a standard in this era dominated by batsmen. Even Steyn doesn't have that .

 

Dude. Botham was *not* over-hyped. 
He burnt out and became a pale shadow of what he was for a long while- and what he was, was the #1 allrounder in the world- by a wide, wide margin- for the first while of his career. 

But anyways, I am not expecting a great bowler to have sub 25 bowling average everywhere. I am expecting him to have sub 25 average for a pacer at home and atleast a couple of the decent away touring nations - anywhere out of Subcontinent, South Africa, Oceania. Except his only decent averages out of home are literally against the mickey-mouse West Indies and a rare good series in UAE against an extremely brittle Pakistan fielding effectively club-level batting with 2 world class batsmen in midst. 

That is definitely horrid by normal standards. 

yes, he's had a good last 8 years. But even then, those last 8 years have been overwhelmingly only at home and against minnows only overseas. 

That puts him in the good but definitely not great bowling range. 

As it stands now, I'll take Botham at his peak over Jimmy at his peak any day of the week, because atleast in his peak Beefy was capable of running through sides on their backyards against some very good batting units - though came up short against clearly the best one of his era ( Windies).

 

[Nikhil_cric]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Anderson averages 24 in last 100 tests since 2010. That's the time frame when he was being hailed as great bowler.

 

He averages close to 30 even during this period. Steyn averages 30+ only in Eng and SL with overall average below 25.

 

Btw, great bolwers of any era didn't manage sub-25 in all countries. No one expects Anderson to do that either.

Well like i said. I don't think he's a great bowler but atleast in this decade you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who has had more impact than him apart from Steyn. Johnson was way too inconsistent despite having terrific peaks and i can't think of one Indian, Pakistani,NZ,Lankan,WI seamer who was better than him over a significant period of time. Of the Saffers, he has definitely been better than Morne , Rabada has proven himself only in OZ/SA and he hasn't played enough. Broad looked , at times, much better but he too blows hot and cold. The OZ quicks all seem to break down every now and then and their average overall and in Asia are certainly not any better. I really can't see who's better than him in this decade. He is, imo, the second best test bowler of this decade and that has got to count for something.

[Nikhil_cric]

41 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Dude. Botham was *not* over-hyped. 
He burnt out and became a pale shadow of what he was for a long while- and what he was, was the #1 allrounder in the world- by a wide, wide margin- for the first while of his career. 

But anyways, I am not expecting a great bowler to have sub 25 bowling average everywhere. I am expecting him to have sub 25 average for a pacer at home and atleast a couple of the decent away touring nations - anywhere out of Subcontinent, South Africa, Oceania. Except his only decent averages out of home are literally against the mickey-mouse West Indies and a rare good series in UAE against an extremely brittle Pakistan fielding effectively club-level batting with 2 world class batsmen in midst. 

That is definitely horrid by normal standards. 

yes, he's had a good last 8 years. But even then, those last 8 years have been overwhelmingly only at home and against minnows only overseas. 

That puts him in the good but definitely not great bowling range. 

As it stands now, I'll take Botham at his peak over Jimmy at his peak any day of the week, because atleast in his peak Beefy was capable of running through sides on their backyards against some very good batting units - though came up short against clearly the best one of his era ( Windies).

 

Strictly comparing their bowling here. In the 80's, Botham imo would be behind Windies quartet, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Kapil, Willis as a bowler. I think Jimmy in the 2010's is the second best bowler of his era all things considered

[Global.Baba]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Dude. Botham was *not* over-hyped. 
He burnt out and became a pale shadow of what he was for a long while- and what he was, was the #1 allrounder in the world- by a wide, wide margin- for the first while of his career. 

But anyways, I am not expecting a great bowler to have sub 25 bowling average everywhere. I am expecting him to have sub 25 average for a pacer at home and atleast a couple of the decent away touring nations - anywhere out of Subcontinent, South Africa, Oceania. Except his only decent averages out of home are literally against the mickey-mouse West Indies and a rare good series in UAE against an extremely brittle Pakistan fielding effectively club-level batting with 2 world class batsmen in midst. 

That is definitely horrid by normal standards. 

yes, he's had a good last 8 years. But even then, those last 8 years have been overwhelmingly only at home and against minnows only overseas. 

That puts him in the good but definitely not great bowling range. 

As it stands now, I'll take Botham at his peak over Jimmy at his peak any day of the week, because atleast in his peak Beefy was capable of running through sides on their backyards against some very good batting units - though came up short against clearly the best one of his era ( Windies).

 

Can you make a comparison across all bowlers who have debuted or considered to the be the best in the world since 2000s.

 

Factor in wickets,longetivity, performance across conditions, support, memorable match winning performances and then throw in all the other stats you want. Don’t think there are too many that will come close. Only guy I can think of who is better is Steyn.

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Strictly comparing their bowling here. In the 80's, Botham imo would be behind Windies quartet, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Kapil, Willis as a bowler. I think Jimmy in the 2010's is the second best bowler of his era all things considered

Irrelevant. Not all eras are equal in batting or bowling talent. Not all eras of every sport is equal either. Jimmy is an average bowler who'd struggle to get into any decent side of the 80s and 90s.

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

Can you make a comparison across all bowlers who have debuted or considered to the be the best in the world since 2000s.

 

Factor in wickets,longetivity, performance across conditions, support, memorable match winning performances and then throw in all the other stats you want. Don’t think there are too many that will come close. Only guy I can think of who is better is Steyn.

factoring in performance against conditions makes anderson just a decent bowler- he is pretty much a total fail to barely average outside his home condition.

Yes, he has longetivity. The bowling version of Colin Cowdrey when it comes to longetivity. Yea, he may be a top bowler in an era of crap bowlers - thats like saying you are the second best batsman in Morocco. 

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Well like i said. I don't think he's a great bowler but atleast in this decade you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who has had more impact than him apart from Steyn. Johnson was way too inconsistent despite having terrific peaks and i can't think of one Indian, Pakistani,NZ,Lankan,WI seamer who was better than him over a significant period of time. Of the Saffers, he has definitely been better than Morne , Rabada has proven himself only in OZ/SA and he hasn't played enough. Broad looked , at times, much better but he too blows hot and cold. The OZ quicks all seem to break down every now and then and their average overall and in Asia are certainly not any better. I really can't see who's better than him in this decade. He is, imo, the second best test bowler of this decade and that has got to count for something.

bolded part is the fallacy of equal eras. Eras are not equal. Not in any sport. The sport may progress and skills may evolve, but eras, have ebb and flow to it. 

[Nikhil_cric]

9 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Irrelevant. Not all eras are equal in batting or bowling talent. Not all eras of every sport is equal either. Jimmy is an average bowler who'd struggle to get into any decent side of the 80s and 90s.

It's not irrelevant. If anything those guys are unlikely to have had the same kind of impact with the rules, conditions ,bats and pitches of the post 2000 era. I personally don't believe in comparing across eras but if you absolutely must then I'd say that bowlers have it much harder 2000 onwards and we have to factor that in. 

[Straight Drive]

Averaging 20.54  on flat tracks of UAE. 

[Trichromatic]

7 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Well like i said. I don't think he's a great bowler but atleast in this decade you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who has had more impact than him apart from Steyn. Johnson was way too inconsistent despite having terrific peaks and i can't think of one Indian, Pakistani,NZ,Lankan,WI seamer who was better than him over a significant period of time. Of the Saffers, he has definitely been better than Morne , Rabada has proven himself only in OZ/SA and he hasn't played enough. Broad looked , at times, much better but he too blows hot and cold. The OZ quicks all seem to break down every now and then and their average overall and in Asia are certainly not any better. I really can't see who's better than him in this decade. He is, imo, the second best test bowler of this decade and that has got to count for something.

How about Herath who has taken 50 wickets less in 2010s and averages 26 which is gold standard for spinners? or Ashwin 80 wickets less and averages 25.

[Trichromatic]

4 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

It's not irrelevant. If anything those guys are unlikely to have had the same kind of impact with the rules, conditions ,bats and pitches of the post 2000 era. I personally don't believe in comparing across eras but if you absolutely must then I'd say that bowlers have it much harder 2000 onwards and we have to factor that in. 

Forget other era, in which era any great player has any significant attribute of their numbers among lower pile of their time.

 

Anderson's away record:

 

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	46	86	10778	4199	202	7/25	10/120	20.78	2.33	53.3	11	1
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	58	112	13419	5703	274	8/38	10/78	20.81	2.54	48.9	18	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	50	93	10912	4726	219	7/22	10/92	21.57	2.59	49.8	14	2
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	43	75	11255	4996	230	9/52	15/123	21.72	2.66	48.9	21	6
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2002	63	111	14755	6356	260	7/119	11/110	24.44	2.58	56.7	17	4
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2006	76	144	21288	9575	389	7/94	12/246	24.61	2.69	54.7	22	6
DW Steyn (SA)	2006-2018	41	72	8112	4434	178	7/51	10/108	24.91	3.27	45.5	10	2
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	74	137	16519	7260	290	7/37	13/55	25.03	2.63	56.9	14	2
SM Pollock (SA)	1997-2006	49	93	12000	4778	186	7/87	9/94	25.68	2.38	64.5	7	0
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	50	83	11785	5127	199	7/40	12/165	25.76	2.61	59.2	13	3
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1990-2003	54	94	9944	5500	211	6/34	11/119	26.06	3.31	47.1	11	2
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1984	49	92	9236	4053	149	6/53	8/100	27.20	2.63	61.9	6	0
JN Gillespie (AUS)	1997-2006	42	81	8233	4055	149	7/37	9/80	27.21	2.95	55.2	5	0
DL Underwood (ENG)	1969-1982	44	78	11889	4159	152	7/113	12/97	27.36	2.09	78.2	7	2
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1994-2009	60	96	18978	8534	307	9/65	16/220	27.79	2.69	61.8	22	7
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	47	89	16005	5252	183	7/98	11/157	28.69	1.96	87.4	12	2
M Morkel (SA)	2008-2017	45	80	8669	4490	154	6/23	8/196	29.15	3.10	56.2	4	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1978-1992	43	72	9572	4652	157	7/48	13/106	29.63	2.91	60.9	10	2
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2018	43	82	10828	5553	179	8/50	13/154	31.02	3.07	60.4	9	1
Z Khan (INDIA)	2000-2014	54	95	11476	6516	207	7/87	10/149	31.47	3.40	55.4	8	1
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2014	56	89	15313	6540	203	6/28	12/170	32.21	2.56	75.4	14	1
SCJ Broad (ENG)	2007-2018	53	91	10748	5124	158	6/17	8/99	32.43	2.86	68.0	5	0
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1978-1994	66	108	15529	7064	215	8/85	8/85	32.85	2.72	72.2	12	0
WPUJC Vaas (SL)	1994-2009	55	92	12500	5762	175	6/87	10/90	32.92	2.76	71.4	7	1
JM Anderson (ENG)	2003-2018	62	112	13449	6500	197	6/42	8/161	32.99	2.89	68.2	5	0
GS Sobers (WI)	1956-1973	49	83	11511	4348	128	6/73	8/80	33.96	2.26	89.9	5	0
I Sharma (INDIA)	2007-2018	54	94	10754	6071	172	7/74	10/108	35.29	3.38	62.5	7	1
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)	1997-2013	78	125	9951	4484	127	6/54	9/92	35.30	2.70	78.3	3	0
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	69	121	20058	9645	269	8/141	12/279	35.85	2.88	74.5	10	1
HMRKB Herath (SL)	2004-2018	44	78	11721	5582	155	8/63	13/152	36.01	2.85	75.6	8	2
M Ntini (SA)	1998-2009	48	87	9568	5256	141	7/37	13/132	37.27	3.29	67.8	6	2
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)	1998-2015	48	87	11591	5913	152	7/120	10/153	38.90	3.06	76.2	7	1

 

 

5 wickets haul:

Ishant 7

Anderson 5

 

10 wickets haul

Ishant 1

Anderson 0

 

Wickets per match
Ishant 3.18

Anderson 3.18

 

SR

Ishant 62

Anderson 68

 

Bowling avg

Ishant 35

Anderson 33

 

 

If it was too much filtering, like comparing records in a particular country then it's ok, but home/away classifications are broad and if your numbers are comparable to one the worst of your era then greatness has to be questioned.

 

 

[Global.Baba]

4 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

factoring in performance against conditions makes anderson just a decent bowler- he is pretty much a total fail to barely average outside his home condition.

Yes, he has longetivity. The bowling version of Colin Cowdrey when it comes to longetivity. Yea, he may be a top bowler in an era of crap bowlers - thats like saying you are the second best batsman in Morocco. 

It can’t work both ways. If we argue that likes of Sanga, Kohli, Ponting, Cook, Steve Smith etc etc have inflated numbers due to the pitches, then the bowling needs to be appreciated as well.

 

It is always apples to apples. Bradman bashed what he had in front of him even though through the grainy videos those bowlers look pathetic then we have to factor in the uncovered pitches and the fact that he was head and shoulders above his peers.

 

If Anderson has survived through all this and got through some batting friendly pitches or spin friendly pitches in SC where ball turns in the 1st session, some credit should be given to him.

 

 

[Vijy]

I think he is somewhat overrated but he's no FTB. Over the past 5-6 yrs, even when he doesn't take too many wkts, he maintains a great deal of control and precision, allowing others to get wickets.

[Nikhil_cric]

13 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

How about Herath who has taken 50 wickets less in 2010s and averages 26 which is gold standard for spinners? or Ashwin 80 wickets less and averages 25.

 

13 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Forget other era, in which era any great player has any significant attribute of their numbers among lower pile of their time.

 

Anderson's away record:

 

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
CEL Ambrose (WI)	1988-2000	46	86	10778	4199	202	7/25	10/120	20.78	2.33	53.3	11	1
GD McGrath (AUS)	1994-2005	58	112	13419	5703	274	8/38	10/78	20.81	2.54	48.9	18	1
MD Marshall (WI)	1978-1991	50	93	10912	4726	219	7/22	10/92	21.57	2.59	49.8	14	2
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1973-1990	43	75	11255	4996	230	9/52	15/123	21.72	2.66	48.9	21	6
Wasim Akram (PAK)	1985-2002	63	111	14755	6356	260	7/119	11/110	24.44	2.58	56.7	17	4
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2006	76	144	21288	9575	389	7/94	12/246	24.61	2.69	54.7	22	6
DW Steyn (SA)	2006-2018	41	72	8112	4434	178	7/51	10/108	24.91	3.27	45.5	10	2
CA Walsh (WI)	1984-2001	74	137	16519	7260	290	7/37	13/55	25.03	2.63	56.9	14	2
SM Pollock (SA)	1997-2006	49	93	12000	4778	186	7/87	9/94	25.68	2.38	64.5	7	0
Imran Khan (PAK)	1971-1990	50	83	11785	5127	199	7/40	12/165	25.76	2.61	59.2	13	3
Waqar Younis (PAK)	1990-2003	54	94	9944	5500	211	6/34	11/119	26.06	3.31	47.1	11	2
RGD Willis (ENG)	1971-1984	49	92	9236	4053	149	6/53	8/100	27.20	2.63	61.9	6	0
JN Gillespie (AUS)	1997-2006	42	81	8233	4055	149	7/37	9/80	27.21	2.95	55.2	5	0
DL Underwood (ENG)	1969-1982	44	78	11889	4159	152	7/113	12/97	27.36	2.09	78.2	7	2
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1994-2009	60	96	18978	8534	307	9/65	16/220	27.79	2.69	61.8	22	7
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	47	89	16005	5252	183	7/98	11/157	28.69	1.96	87.4	12	2
M Morkel (SA)	2008-2017	45	80	8669	4490	154	6/23	8/196	29.15	3.10	56.2	4	0
IT Botham (ENG)	1978-1992	43	72	9572	4652	157	7/48	13/106	29.63	2.91	60.9	10	2
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2018	43	82	10828	5553	179	8/50	13/154	31.02	3.07	60.4	9	1
Z Khan (INDIA)	2000-2014	54	95	11476	6516	207	7/87	10/149	31.47	3.40	55.4	8	1
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2014	56	89	15313	6540	203	6/28	12/170	32.21	2.56	75.4	14	1
SCJ Broad (ENG)	2007-2018	53	91	10748	5124	158	6/17	8/99	32.43	2.86	68.0	5	0
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)	1978-1994	66	108	15529	7064	215	8/85	8/85	32.85	2.72	72.2	12	0
WPUJC Vaas (SL)	1994-2009	55	92	12500	5762	175	6/87	10/90	32.92	2.76	71.4	7	1
JM Anderson (ENG)	2003-2018	62	112	13449	6500	197	6/42	8/161	32.99	2.89	68.2	5	0
GS Sobers (WI)	1956-1973	49	83	11511	4348	128	6/73	8/80	33.96	2.26	89.9	5	0
I Sharma (INDIA)	2007-2018	54	94	10754	6071	172	7/74	10/108	35.29	3.38	62.5	7	1
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)	1997-2013	78	125	9951	4484	127	6/54	9/92	35.30	2.70	78.3	3	0
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	69	121	20058	9645	269	8/141	12/279	35.85	2.88	74.5	10	1
HMRKB Herath (SL)	2004-2018	44	78	11721	5582	155	8/63	13/152	36.01	2.85	75.6	8	2
M Ntini (SA)	1998-2009	48	87	9568	5256	141	7/37	13/132	37.27	3.29	67.8	6	2
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)	1998-2015	48	87	11591	5913	152	7/120	10/153	38.90	3.06	76.2	7	1

 

 

5 wickets haul:

Ishant 7

Anderson 5

 

10 wickets haul

Ishant 1

Anderson 0

 

Wickets per match
Ishant 3.18

Anderson 3.18

 

SR

Ishant 62

Anderson 68

 

Bowling avg

Ishant 35

Anderson 33

 

 

If it was too much filtering, like comparing records in a particular country then it's ok, but home/away classifications are broad and if your numbers are comparable to one the worst of your era then greatness has to be questioned.

 

 

Jimmy had a terrible start to his career when he was worse than even Ishant Sharma. Pretty sure his away performances in the last 8 years is better than that. When his career is done and dusted, he will never be considered an Atg I suppose but a very good one who was a vital cog in many of england's triumphs in the 2010's. 

 

Herath and Ashwin are good spinners but as far as fast bowlers are concerned, Jimmy is only behind Steyn. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Nikhil_cric