Karthik or Jadhav at number 6 in ODIs?

[Global.Baba]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Fitness issues, sure.  Major question mark there.  But skill? That's bias. He's the only middle order batsman giving you consistent part-time bowling, even wickets. He's proven himself capable with the bat, delivering reasonable run production in low probability scenario.  His batting method is exceptionally well suited to bat in the middle overs with the fewer outfielders.  You can make a reasonable argument on the fitness question.  The rest is all bias and muddled thinking.

 

Edit:  Props on taking the high road - regrettable off the cuff remark there.

There is no bias. It’s pretty clear if you have watched him.Apart from that one knock against England  he has had a few opportunities to stand up and deliver given how fragile our middle

order has been and failed to impress every single time. Even Pandey scored a 100 against Aus. 

 

However Jadhav brings a lot more than the other mediocrity we are sorrounded by like Pandey,Dk,Dhoni etc with his bowling but still a very mediocre Sunday league cricketer

[Moochad]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Sample set size is shyite.  Stop misunderstanding statistics to fit your confirmation bias...

Pot meet kettle. Rule of thumb sample size is 30. How many chances should he get exactly in the middle order? Already 9 of his 31 total innings have been in the middle order, 4 or 5. That's almost 30% of his total innings, the other 22 being at 6 or 7. Where exactly are you going to find another 21 matches for him to play in the middle order before the WC2019 and for the sample ?

 

As of Feb 18

https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/india-to-play-30-odis-in-2018-19-season-ahead-of-icc-world-cup-1171991-2018-02-18

Quote

India have announced their itinerary for the 2018-19 season and going by it, India are going to prepare hard for the 2019 World Cup. For the rest of year till March 2019, India are going to play 30 ODIs among the estimated 63 international games across formats.

Exactly, they don't exist.

 

Noobs with no understanding of statistics accusing others of misunderstanding 

 

[Global.Baba]

2 minutes ago, sandeep said:

which team bowls top shelf pace in the middle overs?  

India’s Achilles heel is middle order, the moment teams get the top 3 cheaply,any half decent Captain will bring out his best bowlers. 

 

[Global.Baba]

5 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

He scored 90 off 75 in another ODI in that same series, albeit in a losing cause. 

Ok fine 1.5 innings then. Saw him play against Boult and co the prior series on more even paced pitches and looked all at sea. His go to shot is the dab to 3rd man against anyone over 135ks

[sandeep]

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

India’s Achilles heel is middle order, the moment teams get the top 3 cheaply,any half decent Captain will bring out his best bowlers. 

 

Please give me an example of these teams with "best bowlers" who apparently Jadhav can't handle but others can.

[Global.Baba]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Please give me an example of these teams with "best bowlers" who apparently Jadhav can't handle but others can.

Anyone bowling over 140 clicks

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, Moochad said:

Pot meet kettle. Rule of thumb sample size is 30. How many chances should he get exactly in the middle order? Already 9 of his 31 total innings have been in the middle order, 4 or 5. That's almost 30% of his total innings, the other 22 being at 6 or 7. Where exactly are you going to find another 21 matches for him to play in the middle order before the WC2019 and for the sample ?

 

As of Feb 18

https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/cricket/story/india-to-play-30-odis-in-2018-19-season-ahead-of-icc-world-cup-1171991-2018-02-18

Exactly, they don't exist.

 

Noobs with no understanding of statistics accusing others of misunderstanding 

 

Whole lot of words that end up countering your own argument.  

 

I'm not making a stats based argument for getting Jadhav to bat in the middle overs.  My argument is based on his batting style and likelihood of success and effectiveness in the middle stage.  How many of those innings at 4/5 were in a scenario where he walked in with the platform set? Give the guy 4-5 chances with that sort of a platform and then evaluate.

 

We keep harping on India's inability to go big in the last 10 overs or so.  That's a problem that's overdependent on finding genuine power hitters (Pant Pandya).  But the best-in-class ODI batting units are also more effective than India in the 1st 10 and the middle 30.  We can forget about expecting our team to ever bat selflessly and aggressively in the 1st power play.  Neither our batsmen or the team is incentivized to take that approach. 

 

But getting the right personnel, and batting with the right attitude in the middle powerplay, particularly the 30-40 over timeframe, is a reasonable possibility, a good fit for the conservative mindset of our team.  And they have this guy available who has built his entire career on street-smart gap-hitting.  

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Global.Baba said:

Anyone bowling over 140 clicks

team and names please.  what pace do Plunkett et al bowl at?

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

5 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Ok fine 1.5 innings then. Saw him play against Boult and co the prior series on more even paced pitches and looked all at sea. His go to shot is the dab to 3rd man against anyone over 135ks

That's cool but I'm not sure how you can say he's failed every time. He's played innings like that 120 and 90 and good strike rates when the team was 4 down, imagine if he played with the luxury of more batsmen after him.

 

He hasn't particularly failed at 6 but his game isn't really suited to hitting big sixes to finish the innings, it's to build the score in the middle overs, and he's proven to do that really well in domestic cricket. Not many players at 4 or 5 in our domestic system have played at a strike rate of more than 100. That is extremely valuable for the Indian batting line-up right now.

[Global.Baba]

Just now, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

That's cool but I'm not sure how you can say he's failed every time. He's played innings like that 120 and 90 and good strike rates when the team was 4 down, imagine if he played with the luxury of more batsmen after him.

 

He hasn't particularly failed at 6 but his game isn't really suited to hitting big sixes to finish the innings, it's to build the score in the middle overs, and he's proven to do that really well in domestic cricket. Not many players at 4 or 5 in our domestic system have played at a strike rate of more than 100. That is extremely valuable for the Indian batting line-up right now.

I don’t think he is a long term option. However I will pick him over DK,Pandey,Rayudu and  Dhoni due to  our moron selectors 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Just now, Global.Baba said:

I don’t think he is a long term option. However I will pick him over DK,Pandey,Rayudu and  Dhoni due to  our moron selectors 

I never said I think he's a long-term option. I just said that right now he's more valuable to the team batting at 4 or 5.

[sandeep]

Just now, Global.Baba said:

I don’t think he is a long term option. However I will pick him over DK,Pandey,Rayudu and  Dhoni due to  our moron selectors 

Screw long-term options.  We are less than a year from the ODI WC.  And Jadhav has demonstrated that he's one of the few guys in the top order who can potentially give you a handful of overs.   And prima facie, there's a strong case for him to bat in that 30-40 over timeframe.  But anytime we get a reasonable platform set and a wicket  falls around the 32nd over, we are sending in old greybeard to "get his eye in".  

 

 

[Global.Baba]

Just now, sandeep said:

Screw long-term options.  We are less than a year from the ODI WC.  And Jadhav has demonstrated that he's one of the few guys in the top order who can potentially give you a handful of overs.   And prima facie, there's a strong case for him to bat in that 30-40 over timeframe.  But anytime we get a reasonable platform set and a wicket  falls around the 32nd over, we are sending in old greybeard to "get his eye in".  

 

 

Let us say We live in a perfect world and Pant replaces Dhoni and Jadhav replaces Rayudu 

 

Top 3, Jadhav, Pant, Pandya,Jadeja that looks like a nightmarish batting order

[Moochad]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Whole lot of words that end up countering your own argument.  

 

I'm not making a stats based argument for getting Jadhav to bat in the middle overs.  My argument is based on his batting style and likelihood of success and effectiveness in the middle stage.  How many of those innings at 4/5 were in a scenario where he walked in with the platform set? Give the guy 4-5 chances with that sort of a platform and then evaluate.

 

We keep harping on India's inability to go big in the last 10 overs or so.  That's a problem that's overdependent on finding genuine power hitters (Pant Pandya).  But the best-in-class ODI batting units are also more effective than India in the 1st 10 and the middle 30.  We can forget about expecting our team to ever bat selflessly and aggressively in the 1st power play.  Neither our batsmen or the team is incentivized to take that approach. 

 

But getting the right personnel, and batting with the right attitude in the middle powerplay, particularly the 30-40 over timeframe, is a reasonable possibility, a good fit for the conservative mindset of our team.  And they have this guy available who has built his entire career on street-smart gap-hitting.  

Whole lot of words saying nothing and not countering anything I said. Neither did anything I said contradict my argument. 

 

 

I didn't make a statistical argument. It was you who tried to be oversmart regarding sample size, ie statistics, and now you are backtracking and doing mental gymnastics while failing to justify your position. 

 

My original post

Quote

Jadhav is better at the lower order right now b/c he has a naturally high SR. 

 

We gave him a short shot at 4 and he didn't do as good. At 6 he can play his natural game of shots right away. Ideally He, Chota Pandya, and Mota Pandya would be our finishing combo

My original post says that Jadhav can play his natural game at 6 or 7, ie be aggressive from ball one.

 

His batting style isn't suited for 4 or 5, it is suited for 6 or 7. As a number 4, a batsman needs to be able to both anchor/build an innings when 2-3 early wickets are lost and accelerate toward the end. There is nothing about Jadhav's from the eye test or his record so far that suggest he can do that.   

 

 

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, Moochad said:

My original post says that Jadhav can play his natural game at 6 or 7, ie be aggressive from ball one.

 

His batting style isn't suited for 4 or 5, it is suited for 6 or 7. As a number 4, a batsman needs to be able to both anchor/build an innings when 2-3 early wickets are lost and accelerate toward the end. There is nothing about Jadhav's from the eye test or his record so far that suggest he can do that.

I have no problem with an opinion like this - My post is an opinion as well, and we can agree to disagree.  What I do have a problem with, is a claim that he has been tried in that slot already, and especially claiming that based on statistics.  

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

45 minutes ago, Moochad said:

His batting style isn't suited for 4 or 5, it is suited for 6 or 7. As a number 4, a batsman needs to be able to both anchor/build an innings when 2-3 early wickets are lost and accelerate toward the end. There is nothing about Jadhav's from the eye test or his record so far that suggest he can do that. 

Before he debuted for India, he had an average of 50 in List A cricket and a strike rate of over 100 batting not at 6 where you say his batting style is most suited for, but 4 or 5. How many No. 4 or No. 5 batsman in Indian domestic cricket have had an average of 50 and strike rate of 100+ over 40+ matches? 

[UnknownGenius]

He is a must have in the team

 

India's best ODI all rounder to be honest. Transformed player after being a champion with CSK

[jusarrived]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

With 4 outfielders.  And watch him rip apart teams with his street-smart gap hitting.  Been saying this for more than a year now.  He's not a power hitter, but a gap hitter. 

 

This team is structuring batting order and selections based on non-merit considerations, resulting in a pathetic pattern of chronic under-achievement.  Kuptaan Wrogn owns this.  He can't pass the buck.  

Completely agree , though he hasnt been bad as a late order hitter the most impressive part of Jadhavs batting is his game against spin . He can be destructive against spinners . Hes one of the few players around who can score at high SR in the middle overs , we should be using that . 

[speedheat]

Not the best but also not the worst, he is good at rotating strike doesn't get stranded by bowlers bowling tight lines and finds a way to score, can bat at num 5,  bowling is also OK can give good 5-6 overs only concern is his double-barrelled fitness.

[Moochad]

19 minutes ago, TNAmarkFromIndia said:

Before he debuted for India, he had an average of 50 in List A cricket and a strike rate of over 100 batting not at 6 where you say his batting style is most suited for, but 4 or 5. How many No. 4 or No. 5 batsman in Indian domestic cricket have had an average of 50 and strike rate of 100+ over 40+ matches? 

Yes that is a good record and I admit I don't watch much domestic cricket outside of some Ranji trophy/IPL, so take what I say with a grain of salt here and it is only based on my opinion from his international matches, but I don't think List A is the best predictor of success on the international level.

 

Many posters on here support KL Rahul to be our number 4 in ODIs, yet his List A numbers are an avg of 38 at 75 SR, vs teammate Manish Pandey with a 42 avg at 91 SR in List A. I think most would choose Rahul over Pandey even though Pandey has better List A statistics. It's because Rahul has a good enough game for building an innings and then accelerating later. 

 

To me, Jadhav doesn't inspire confidence as someone who can bat for a long time in an ODI and build an innings around,  such as in the CT when both Rohit and Kohli got out early, I wouldn't trust him to build a long innings from there as he doesn't seem adept at taking the quick singles. I can see him getting promoted to 4 in situations where quick runs are needed, but otherwise I personally am not seeing it.     

 

 

Edited October 29, 2018 by Moochad