philcric Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 There are quite a few batsmen over the years who averaged more in test cricket than in FC (non-tests), like in the +10% range. Sangakkara, Trescothick, Dhoni, Sehwag, DuPlessis, M Vaughan are a few examples. Sanga - 57 in tests and around 47 in non-test FC Tresco - 44 in tests and around 40 in non-test FC Dhoni - 38 in tests and around 36 in non-test FC Sehwag - 49 in tests and around 45 in non-test FC DuPlessis - 42 in tests and around 39 in non-test FC Vaughan - 42 in tests and around 34 in non-test FC Sanga and Vaughan probably have the most skewed averages at around +20% Straight Drive, express bowling and zen 1 2
express bowling Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 Jadeja has a bowling average of 23.7 after playing 41 tests. That is the best among ALL Indian bowlers in our history with 100+ test wickets. He is in a different league to Pandya as a test player. As much as I see and support Pandya's potential as a test player ... let us not compare him to the near-great Jadeja. Clarke, Straight Drive, Vk1 and 1 other 1 3
philcric Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 24 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: Some notable exceptions being: Ken Barrington who averaged 58+ in Tests but "only" 45+ in FC overall (28% higher in Tests). Tony Greig who averaged 40+ in Tests but 31 in FC overall (29% higher in Tests). Barrington's non-test FC average would be around 43. Greig's non-test FC average would be around 29. Jimmy Cliff and express bowling 2
zen Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 (edited) Pandya and Jadeja do not even compete for the same spot. Pandya is played as an AR, while Jadeja primarily as one of the specialist bowlers .... Pandya is in his first season, while Jadeja has been playing since 2012 and has developed over the years .... However, I do believe that Pandya is a more unique cricketer (special talent from an Indian perspective) than Jadeja for his ability to hit 100s and bowl at 140+ PS both players in their first / first-two years Jadeja in his first two years Records type all-round analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Dec 2014 Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff unfiltered 2012-2019 41 1485 100* 32.28 1 192 7/48 23.68 9 31 0 8.59 Profile filtered 2012-2014 12 364 68 21.41 0 45 6/138 30.37 2 11 0 -8.96 Pandya in his first season since Jul 2017 (and played most of his games in SA and Eng, and did not even get to use a relatively new ball on many occassions) Records type all-round analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff overall 11 532 108 31.29 1 17 5/28 31.05 1 7 0 0.23 Profil Edited January 27, 2019 by zen
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 1 Shakib Al Hasan BAN 415 2 Ravindra Jadeja IND 387 3 Jason Holder WI 365 4 Ben Stokes ENG 342 5 Vernon Philander SA 341 6 Ravichandran Ashwin IND 321 7 Pat Cummins AUS 301 8 Moeen Ali ENG 292 9 Mitchell Starc AUS 247 10 Chris Woakes ENG 238 11 Tim Southee NZ 230 12 Mehedi Hasan BAN 213 13 Kagiso Rabada SA 198 14 Dilruwan Perera SL 196 15 Colin de Grandhomme NZ 168 ICC all rounder rankings.
express bowling Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, philcric said: Barrington's non-test FC average would be around 43. So, a 35% higher average in tests. 11 minutes ago, philcric said: Greig's non-test FC average would be around 29. 38% higher average in tests.
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 20 minutes ago, philcric said: There are quite a few batsmen over the years who averaged more in test cricket than in FC (non-tests), like in the +10% range. Sangakkara, Trescothick, Dhoni, Sehwag, DuPlessis, M Vaughan are a few examples. Sanga - 57 in tests and around 47 in non-test FC Tresco - 44 in tests and around 40 in non-test FC Dhoni - 38 in tests and around 36 in non-test FC Sehwag - 49 in tests and around 45 in non-test FC DuPlessis - 42 in tests and around 39 in non-test FC Vaughan - 42 in tests and around 34 in non-test FC Sanga and Vaughan probably have the most skewed averages at around +20% List further shows that batsmen remain closer to their FC averages. Best case they average 10% higher than their FC average. I have already mentioned Sanga's name who averages 20%, Vaughan is another case of 20% higher range. Here Pandya will average 20-30% higher than his FC record just based on so called talent.
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, express bowling said: So, a 35% higher average in tests. 38% higher average in tests. Greig played just 58 tests compared to his 350 FC matches. Similarly Barrington played 82 matches compared to 533 FC matches. And my point is against fast tracking Pandya without FC matches and expecting him to be like Greig and Barrington. Will Pandya has experience of 350 and 500 FC matches to reach that level?
zen Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: 1 Shakib Al Hasan BAN 415 2 Ravindra Jadeja IND 387 3 Jason Holder WI 365 4 Ben Stokes ENG 342 5 Vernon Philander SA 341 6 Ravichandran Ashwin IND 321 7 Pat Cummins AUS 301 8 Moeen Ali ENG 292 9 Mitchell Starc AUS 247 10 Chris Woakes ENG 238 11 Tim Southee NZ 230 12 Mehedi Hasan BAN 213 13 Kagiso Rabada SA 198 14 Dilruwan Perera SL 196 15 Colin de Grandhomme NZ 168 ICC all rounder rankings. Many of them avg less than 20 with the bat
express bowling Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Greig played just 58 tests compared to his 350 FC matches. Similarly Barrington played 82 matches compared to 533 FC matches. And my point is against fast tracking Pandya without FC matches and expecting him to be like Greig and Barrington. Will Pandya has experience of 350 and 500 FC matches to reach that level? I am all for Pandya playing lots of FC from now on. I am against judging Pandya by his FC numbers before test debut, because he is a late bloomer.
Straight Drive Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 25 minutes ago, zen said: Pandya and Jadeja do not even compete for the same spot. Pandya is played as an AR, while Jadeja primarily as one of the specialist bowlers .... Pandya is in his first season, while Jadeja has been playing since 2012 .... However, I do believe that Pandya is a more unique cricketer (special talent from an Indian perspective) than Jadeja for his ability to hit 100s and bowl at 140+ Jadeja's primary skill is indeed bowling but yet his test batting average is 32.28. His test bowling average is 23.69 which is awesome. Bowling strike rate of 59.79. If Pandya achieves what Jadeja has in tests, then he too should be considered as good test all rounder. Hope Jadeja achieves double of 200 test runs and 200 test wickets soon. express bowling 1
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, zen said: Many of them avg less than 20 with the bat Jadeja averages higher with bat and lower with ball. ;)
zen Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 To close the discussion on FC averages: View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Involving all of the players RA Jadeja (INDIA) or HH Pandya (INDIA) Ordered by runs scored (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 15 of 15 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s S Dhawan 3 4 0 346 190 86.50 315 109.84 2 0 0 58 4 CA Pujara 3 4 0 336 153 84.00 584 57.53 2 0 0 32 1 AM Rahane 3 4 1 222 132 74.00 415 53.49 1 1 0 21 0 HH Pandya 3 3 0 141 71 47.00 163 86.50 0 2 0 18 3 R Ashwin 3 3 0 119 54 39.66 191 62.30 0 1 0 13 1 V Kohli 2 3 1 119 103* 59.50 173 68.78 1 0 0 7 1 KL Rahul 2 2 0 111 57 55.50 146 76.02 0 2 0 15 0 RA Jadeja 3 3 1 105 70* 52.50 140 75.00 0 1 0 7 4 M Vijay 1 1 0 105 105 105.00 153 68.62 1 0 0 15 1 A Mukund 1 2 0 93 81 46.50 142 65.49 0 1 0 10 0 WP Saha 2 2 0 83 67 41.50 166 50.00 0 1 0 7 1 Mohammed Shami 2 2 0 49 30 24.50 38 128.94 0 0 0 1 5 UT Yadav 3 3 3 45 26* - 40 112.50 0 0 0 4 3 I Sharma 1 1 0 8 8 8.00 13 61.53 0 0 0 1 0 KD Karthik 1 1 0 4 4 4.00 22 18.18 0 0 0 0 0 In games that both Pandya and Jadeja have played, Pandya has scored more runs Pandya has 2 50+ scores in 3 innings. Jadeja has 1 in 3 Jadeja's avg is inflated due to the 70 not out TM plays Pandya above Jadeja, who batted at #9 iirc
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, express bowling said: I am all for Pandya playing lots of FC from now on. +1. That's the only point I have been advocating in all threads. 12 minutes ago, express bowling said: I am all for Pandya playing lots of FC from now on. I am against judging Pandya by his FC numbers before test debut, because he is a late bloomer. Not judging him by FC numbers. He is already better than what he has done in FC cricket so far. But batting doesn't go far if it isn't developed at FC level. Players can score a century in 100, score good 40s-50s, but to do it consistently requires practice in domestics. Playing long innings require grinding in FC. Someone like Pant didn't magically turn off his insticts in 3rd test. He has a test triple century where he faced 326 deliveries even though it was a flat track. http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8050/scorecard/1053493/maharashtra-vs-delhi-group-b-ranji-trophy-2016-17 He had done it before and such experiences help players. Bowling is completely different where you can throw a player directly into international without even a single FC game and can still expect him to succeed. Development of batting has no short cuts.
zen Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 6 minutes ago, Straight Drive said: Jadeja's primary skill is indeed bowling but yet his test batting average is 32.28. His test bowling average is 23.69 which is awesome. Bowling strike rate of 59.79. If Pandya achieves what Jadeja has in tests, then he too should be considered as good test all rounder. Hope Jadeja achieves double of 200 test runs and 200 test wickets soon. Note that Pandya is a fast bowler though so the metrics are different. For e.g. if you recall, Kapil's bowling avg is around 30 and batting avg around 31, and he is considered a better AR than Jadeja, who is probably not even played as one
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, zen said: To close the discussion on FC averages: View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Involving all of the players RA Jadeja (INDIA) or HH Pandya (INDIA) Ordered by runs scored (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 15 of 15 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s S Dhawan 3 4 0 346 190 86.50 315 109.84 2 0 0 58 4 CA Pujara 3 4 0 336 153 84.00 584 57.53 2 0 0 32 1 AM Rahane 3 4 1 222 132 74.00 415 53.49 1 1 0 21 0 HH Pandya 3 3 0 141 71 47.00 163 86.50 0 2 0 18 3 R Ashwin 3 3 0 119 54 39.66 191 62.30 0 1 0 13 1 V Kohli 2 3 1 119 103* 59.50 173 68.78 1 0 0 7 1 KL Rahul 2 2 0 111 57 55.50 146 76.02 0 2 0 15 0 RA Jadeja 3 3 1 105 70* 52.50 140 75.00 0 1 0 7 4 M Vijay 1 1 0 105 105 105.00 153 68.62 1 0 0 15 1 A Mukund 1 2 0 93 81 46.50 142 65.49 0 1 0 10 0 WP Saha 2 2 0 83 67 41.50 166 50.00 0 1 0 7 1 Mohammed Shami 2 2 0 49 30 24.50 38 128.94 0 0 0 1 5 UT Yadav 3 3 3 45 26* - 40 112.50 0 0 0 4 3 I Sharma 1 1 0 8 8 8.00 13 61.53 0 0 0 1 0 KD Karthik 1 1 0 4 4 4.00 22 18.18 0 0 0 0 0 In games that both Pandya and Jadeja have played, Pandya has scored more runs Pandya has 2 50+ scores in 3 innings. Jadeja has 1 in 3 Jadeja's avg is inflated due to the 70 not out TM plays Pandya above Jadeja, who batted at #9 iirc Jadeja 105 runs at avg of 52 Pandya 141 runs at avg of 47 Jadeja 19 wickets at avg of 21 Pandya 3 wickets at avg of 29. Daylight difference between these 2 players when it comes to AR capabilities. Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 RA Jadeja 3 6 121.1 22 409 19 5/152 7/236 21.52 3.37 38.2 1 0 R Ashwin 3 6 128.1 23 409 16 5/69 7/201 25.56 3.19 48.0 1 0 UT Yadav 3 6 54.0 6 215 8 3/26 4/44 26.87 3.98 40.5 0 0 Mohammed Shami 2 4 39.0 6 128 5 2/13 3/88 25.60 3.28 46.8 0 0 I Sharma 1 2 12.0 2 45 4 2/17 4/45 11.25 3.75 18.0 0 0 HH Pandya 3 5 34.0 4 89 3 2/31 2/31 29.66 2.61 68.0 0 0
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, zen said: Note that Pandya is a fast bowler though so the metrics are different. For e.g. if you recall, Kapil's bowling avg is around 30 and batting avg around 31, and he is considered a better AR than Jadeja, who is probably not even played as one He is considered better AR because he did it for longer time and in various conditions. If Jadeja gets similar performances in 130 tests, there is no reason why he can't be at same level as of Kapil.
zen Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, Trichromatic said: Jadeja 105 runs at avg of 52 Pandya 141 runs at avg of 47 Jadeja 19 wickets at avg of 21 Pandya 3 wickets at avg of 29. Daylight difference between these 2 players when it comes to AR capabilities. Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 RA Jadeja 3 6 121.1 22 409 19 5/152 7/236 21.52 3.37 38.2 1 0 R Ashwin 3 6 128.1 23 409 16 5/69 7/201 25.56 3.19 48.0 1 0 UT Yadav 3 6 54.0 6 215 8 3/26 4/44 26.87 3.98 40.5 0 0 Mohammed Shami 2 4 39.0 6 128 5 2/13 3/88 25.60 3.28 46.8 0 0 I Sharma 1 2 12.0 2 45 4 2/17 4/45 11.25 3.75 18.0 0 0 HH Pandya 3 5 34.0 4 89 3 2/31 2/31 29.66 2.61 68.0 0 0 Pandya debut 2017 Jadeja debut 2012 Pandya of 2017 > Jadeja of 2012-2014 (stats posted) Kapil, Ind's greatest AR avg 30 with the ball, 31 with the bat. So fast bowlers are judged differently
Trichromatic Posted January 27, 2019 Author Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, zen said: Pandya debut 2017 Jadeja debut 2012 Pandya of 2017 > Jadeja of 2012-2014 (stats posted) Kapil, Ind's greatest AR avg 30 with the ball, 31 with the bat. So fast bowlers are judged differently Kapil averaged 26 with ball in first 3-4 years with ball and 32 with bat.
zen Posted January 27, 2019 Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, Trichromatic said: He is considered better AR because he did it for longer time and in various conditions. If Jadeja gets similar performances in 130 tests, there is no reason why he can't be at same level as of Kapil. And Jadeja is not even considered for various conditions so his numbers are not taken at face value .... imagine Kapil and Pandya bowling on surfaces they prefer for e.g.
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