How useful would Shankar + Jadhav be in the WC19?

[Ankit_sharma03]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

If Wimdies use your  logic Hetmyer

wont even feature in their squad since they can say “Even RCB is not using him why should we”

also 

Rahane shud be on plane ahead of rohit sharma

Pandey shud be on radar due to his last few innings

 

To everyone's shock rahane this seasons IPL s/r is better then rohit, rahul , dhawan.........just a lil less then kohli 

[zen]

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Zen stop dismissing legitimate points as irrelevant What they say is relevant. Based on your assumption Pant cannot even be a backup as he is far too unreliable. Shankar not being used by SRH as a bowler is not Shankars fault. Don’t forget he won a ODI with his last over. He also fielded better than most. He even outshone Kohli in a partnership with Kohli. 

They are irrelevant as:

• These two are in the squad
• In IPL, they have failed and relegated to relatively fringe roles on good batting surfaces vs. teams that are weaker compared to major international teams. So India has to consider a what-if scenario where they fail and device a backup plan 
• On Pant, he is not there to play consistent knocks like Kohli but as a tool to try to change a game, make an impact, etc.. Pant has done that by winning games for his team 

 

Not apples to apples 

 

Quote

 

If Wimdies use your  logic Hetmyer

wont even feature in their squad since they can say “Even RCB is not using him why should we”

 

WI does not need to as

 

• IPL is not key WI tournament
• It would depend upon options available to WI as well
• Shankar and Jadhav are more like fringe players who can be replaced in the 11

 

Again not apples to apples and a strawman 

Edited May 1, 2019 by zen

[The Dark Horse]

IPL teams don't give a rats ass if you're in the Indian team, nor if you were the Australian captain..they just want to win and go by their whims and fancies in decision making. It's not a reflection of how good or bad a particular player is at the international level.

[vvvslaxman]

22 minutes ago, zen said:

They are irrelevant as:

• These two are in the squad
• In IPL, they have failed and relegated to relatively fringe roles on good batting surfaces vs. teams that are weaker compared to major international teams. So India has to consider a what-if scenario where they fail and device a backup plan 
• On Pant, he is not there to play consistent knocks like Kohli but as a tool to try to change a game, make an impact, etc.. Pant has done that by winning games for his team 

 

Not apples to apples 

 

WI does not need to as

 

• IPL is not key WI tournament
• It would depend upon options available to WI as well
• Shankar and Jadhav are more like fringe players who can be replaced in the 11

 

Again not apples to apples and a strawman 

You are comparing domestic thamasha league with International cricket how is that not apples and oranges. He has scored runs in conditions that were much tougher against a collapse. How do you dismiss that. And consider this hit and giggle format seriously? Vs Boult in NZ in swinging conditions is much harder than facing trundlers in Hyderabad. Only difference format is different roles are different. 

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, The Dark Horse said:

IPL teams don't give a rats ass if you're in the Indian team, nor if you were the Australian captain..they just want to win and go by their whims and fancies in decision making. It's not a reflection of how good or bad a particular player is at the international level.

Exactly it is not exactly shankars fault he wasn’t used. Sundar was not even in the XI for the best part but akshdeep kept getting chances. How is that sundar’s fault.

[zen]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You are comparing domestic thamasha league with International cricket how is that not apples and oranges. He has scored runs in conditions that were much tougher against a collapse. How do you dismiss that. And consider this hit and giggle format seriously? Vs Boult in NZ in swinging conditions is much harder than facing trundlers in Hyderabad. Only difference format is different roles are different. 

But he is in the squad and his current form is a concern. The sample size for international cricket is small and could have coincided with his purple patch. While in IPL, he played in 12 games. And is/was considered a key component of his team .... I hope you are not suggesting that he is not expected to do well in IPL or should not do better or even worse, one does not even need to perform in IPL (even though almost every Indian cricketer wants to be a part of a franchise) 

 

Quote

Exactly it is not exactly shankars fault he wasn’t used. Sundar was not even in the XI for the best part but akshdeep kept getting chances. How is that sundar’s fault.

He was given responsibility to bat higher and considered a key component of his team but he failed so far in 12 games as has been explained .... And the guys you listed are not in the world cup squad

 

The point is where would India go or what should it do to address these concerns if these guys continue with their lackluster performances in WC  (Doing reasonably well is not an achievement as they are expected to do well since they are in the squad)

 

[Clarke]

Good heavens, more than a decade of IPL & some people just don't understand that it is not the ultimate or even a reasonable yardstick for ODI performance. 

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, zen said:

But he is in the squad and his current form is a concern. The sample size for international cricket is small and could have coincided with his purple patch. While in IPL, he played in 12 games. And is/was considered a key component of his team .... I hope you are not suggesting that he is not expected to do well in IPL or should not do better or even worse, one does not even need to perform in IPL (even though almost every Indian cricketer wants to be a part of a franchise) 

 

He was given responsibility to bat higher and considered a key component of his team but he failed so far in 12 games as has been explained .... And the guys you listed are not in the world cup squad

 

The point is where would India go or what should it do to address these concerns if these guys continue with their lackluster performances in WC  (Doing reasonably well is not an achievement as they are expected to do well since they are in the squad)

 

He is the squad because of his decent outings in the ODIs. First of all you have to understand the difference Franchise T20 league and ODIs. In a Franchise league you have specialist foreign imports like Rashid, Nabi, Shakib will bowl their full quota if they play. That is atleast 8 overs. Remaining overs will be shared between part time spinner and knuckle brigade. Sandeep gets absolute phainty and captain still wants to keep using him not Shankar then the problem is with the captain not Shankar.  Our Indian kaptaan doesn't have trust in many players as well. That doesn't mean they are all bad.  Kuldeep was altogether dropped by KKR. Doesn't mean he will suck in world cup.

 

LOok at postive things like this.

 

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/cricket/india-australia-2nd-odi-nagpur-vijay-shankar-world-cup-squad/article26438685.ece

[zen]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

33 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

He is the squad because of his decent outings in the ODIs. First of all you have to understand the difference Franchise T20 league and ODIs. In a Franchise league you have specialist foreign imports like Rashid, Nabi, Shakib will bowl their full quota if they play. That is atleast 8 overs. Remaining overs will be shared between part time spinner and knuckle brigade. Sandeep gets absolute phainty and captain still wants to keep using him not Shankar then the problem is with the captain not Shankar.  Our Indian kaptaan doesn't have trust in many players as well. That doesn't mean they are all bad.  Kuldeep was altogether dropped by KKR. Doesn't mean he will suck in world cup.

 

That is understood. The key concern is not bowling but it is being discussed as per selectors, Shankar is chosen for his 3D abilities. In IPL, the concern is the lack of confidence showed in Shankar's 3D abilities even though other bowlers have gone for runs and he could have been given a few overs. In T20s, I would expect bowlers to go for runs in good batting conditions (pitches+ relatively small boundaries). The key concern is batting form and the ability to deliver under pressure. 

 

Note that Shankar and Jadhav are not youngsters. They are 28 and 34 respectively and experienced cricketers. 

 

 

Quote

 

LOok at postive things like this.

 

https://sportstar.thehindu.com/cricket/india-australia-2nd-odi-nagpur-vijay-shankar-world-cup-squad/article26438685.ece

 

 

 

As mentioned, the thread is more focused on batting form. Their ability to get a few overs in is pointless if they cannot bat well. If they do well with the bat, Ind will have fewer problems. The topic is about the backup plan in case Shankar and Jadhav fail with the bat (a highly probable scenario) as they could occupy the key 4-6 batting positions. Mentioned the scenario of both of these guys starting in the 11 in the first 2-3 games in the OP

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

India has to worry about backup plan when Kuldeep and Chahal go off the boil. They bring absolutely nothing else to the table if they fail with the ball. If Shankar doesn't click with ball he could click with bat and fielding. He has two other areas he can offer more. If he doesn't click with bat he could still contribute with ball and fielding assuming he is in the starting XI. I still think KL Rahul will bat at no.4 Dhoni at no.5  Jadhav/Shankar at no.6 Pandya at no.7 Bhuvi/Shami at no.8  Jaddu/CHahal at no.9 Kuldeep 10 Bumrah 11

[zen]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India has to worry about backup plan when Kuldeep and Chahal go off the boil. They bring absolutely nothing else to the table if they fail with the ball. If Shankar doesn't click with ball he could click with bat and fielding. He has two other areas he can offer more. If he doesn't click with bat he could still contribute with ball and fielding assuming he is in the starting XI. I still think KL Rahul will bat at no.4 Dhoni at no.5  Jadhav/Shankar at no.6 Pandya at no.7 Bhuvi/Shami at no.8  Jaddu/CHahal at no.9 Kuldeep 10 Bumrah 11

Since Kuldeep and Chahal are specialist bowlers. They can be replaced by other specialist bowlers in the squad if they do not do well. 

 

Shankar if batting at #4 is primarily picked for his batting. But preferred over a better batsman for his ability get 2-3 overs in. If he bats at #6 or #7, he is expected to score quickly and handle pressure too (much like what he is expected to do for his IPL team) .... So in a highly probable scenario of Shankar and Jadhav failing with the bat, they would not be picked for their bowling alone (2-3 overs of friendly stuff, and when even their franchise have shown little faith in either their batting or bowling) .... Ind could be forced to go into a situation where it would be playing 5 bowlers (with Bhuvi/Jadeja at 7), which would be a major setback to the strategy of picking players such as Shankar+Jadhav, who can bowl a bit, to strengthen the batting further 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Since Kuldeep and Chahal are specialist bowlers. They can be replaced by other specialist bowlers in the squad if they do not do well. 

 

Shankar if batting at #4 is primarily picked for his batting. But preferred over a better batsman for his ability get 2-3 overs in. If he bats at #6 or #7, he is expected to score quickly and handle pressure too (much like what he is expected to do for his IPL team) .... So in a highly probable scenario of Shankar and Jadhav failing with the bat, they would not be picked for their bowling alone (2-3 overs of friendly stuff, and when even their franchise have shown little faith in either their batting or bowling) .... Ind could be forced to go into a situation where it would be playing 5 bowlers (with Bhuvi/Jadeja at 7), which would be a major setback to the strategy of picking players such as Shankar+Jadhav, who can bowl a bit, to strengthen the batting further 

 

 

 

India cannot afford to go in with just  5 bowlers including pandya. That would be the ultimate dumbest idea. If one main bowler having a bad day or even injured and opposition is ready to target Pandya's bowling. Then you have about 15 freebie overs to target.

 

Rohit - Can't bowl

Dhawan - Can't bowl

Kohli - Can't bowl

Dhoni - Can't bowl

Rahul - Can't bowl

 

Why do you think   Jadeja/Bhuvi > Jadhav/Shankar? in terms of batting. You want  a batting all rounder or a bowling rounder? Obviously you want a batting all rounder as you don't want to elongate your tail with fake all rounder Jaddu and Bhuvi. Shankar brings more to the table in English condition than Jaddu  except on pitches like Oval , Lords. 

 

 

 

[zen]

 

 

 

2

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

India cannot afford to go in with just  5 bowlers including pandya. That would be the ultimate dumbest idea. If one main bowler having a bad day or even injured and opposition is ready to target Pandya's bowling. Then you have about 15 freebie overs to target.

 

Rohit - Can't bowl

Dhawan - Can't bowl

Kohli - Can't bowl

Dhoni - Can't bowl

Rahul - Can't bowl

I said in the OP that - "If these two (Shankar and Jadhav) start in the first 2-3 games and do not perform, Ind could be forced to go in with 5 bowlers in the remaining games for an 11 such as ...."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

Quote

Why do you think   Jadeja/Bhuvi > Jadhav/Shankar? in terms of batting. You want  a batting all rounder or a bowling rounder? Obviously you want a batting all rounder as you don't want to elongate your tail with fake all rounder Jaddu and Bhuvi. Shankar brings more to the table in English condition than Jaddu  except on pitches like Oval , Lords. 

I do not mind playing one of them in the 11 but If Jadhav and Shankar do not perform effectively with the bat, it is a fruitless discussion as Ind is not going to play them just for their bowling as we are not playing cricketers for runs on paper 

 

• My preferred 11 from those in the squad to start the campaign with Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, KL, Pandya, Dhoni, X (play whomever), and the bowlers 
• Likely 11: Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Shankar, Dhoni, Jadhav, Pandya, and the bowlers 
• If Shankar and Jadhav do not perform, Ind will be forced to go with Bhuvi/Jadeja in the "X" position listed in the preferred 11, a forced response to the situation on the ground with respect to the original strategy of utilizing Shankar and Jadhav

 

[vvvslaxman]

Only one of them will play. That is for sure. KL Rahul cannot be dropped. He is a pure batsman. HE is in good "ODI form". DId okay against English Lions.  

[vvvslaxman]

We have to understand why Vijay shankar is such a necessary evil. Seam bowling all rounder is rarest of the rarest commodity even half decent one. Especially someone who can decently field also is even rarer. India have an array of spinning all rounders (fake ones and real ones).  Hardly any seam bowling all rounder in the vicinity. Been the same for years.  Laxmi Ratan Shukla, Bhatia, Reetinder singh sodhi all vanished.  Either they were trundlers or inconsistent with bat.  In 2018 Deodhar Trophy a list A tournament who was the highest wicket taker? Vijay SHankar.  3 matches 7 wickets average 20.85. ER 5.21 Strike rate 24.0. Better than Gurbani, Chahar, Unadkat, Dhawal, Aaron, Saini with ball.

 

Who do we have now in Indian circuit besides Pandya as seam bowling all rounders? We are scrapping the barrel. None of the following can truly be considered as genuine all rounders. This is the best you get. Among these it is no brainer Shankar is the best bet. In case Pandya (who has recurring back issues) misses out you will have to fall back on another all rounder. I would rather go with Shankar than Jaddu. Jaddu can bat only against pitched up half vollies in the arc. If you really want to tie him down you can do it all day. 

 

1) Vijay Shankar (28 years old) List A bowling average  33.97/ER 5.05, batting average 36.65/92.48 SR 

2) Stuart Binny (34 year old)     List A bowling average 32.00/ER 5.31,  batting  average 22.29/88.42 SR

3) Dubey (25 year old)              List A bowling average 26.60/ER4.74   batting  average 27/55/103.76 SR

[zen]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

We have to understand why Vijay shankar is such a necessary evil. Seam bowling all rounder is rarest of the rarest commodity even half decent one. Especially someone who can decently field also is even rarer. India have an array of spinning all rounders (fake ones and real ones).  Hardly any seam bowling all rounder in the vicinity. Been the same for years.  Laxmi Ratan Shukla, Bhatia, Reetinder singh sodhi all vanished.  Either they were trundlers or inconsistent with bat.  In 2018 Deodhar Trophy a list A tournament who was the highest wicket taker? Vijay SHankar.  3 matches 7 wickets average 20.85. ER 5.21 Strike rate 24.0. Better than Gurbani, Chahar, Unadkat, Dhawal, Aaron, Saini with ball.

 

Who do we have now in Indian circuit besides Pandya as seam bowling all rounders? We are scrapping the barrel. None of the following can truly be considered as genuine all rounders. This is the best you get. Among these it is no brainer Shankar is the best bet. In case Pandya (who has recurring back issues) misses out you will have to fall back on another all rounder. I would rather go with Shankar than Jaddu. Jaddu can bat only against pitched up half vollies in the arc. If you really want to tie him down you can do it all day. 

 

1) Vijay Shankar (28 years old) List A bowling average  33.97/ER 5.05, batting average 36.65/92.48 SR 

2) Stuart Binny (34 year old)     List A bowling average 32.00/ER 5.31,  batting  average 22.29/88.42 SR

3) Dubey (25 year old)              List A bowling average 26.60/ER4.74   batting  average 27/55/103.76 SR

 

We know that likes of Shankar and Jadhav can bowl 2-4 overs. But at this point, Shankar will not be selected for just bowling. If he is not batting well, he would be out. Similarly, for Jadhav. 

 

[jf1gp_1]

If going by IPL performances then this World Cup would be fight between pandya and russel on who has more 150+ Innings and at what strike rate.

[zen]

47 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

If going by IPL performances then this World Cup would be fight between pandya and russel on who has more 150+ Innings and at what strike rate.

Their good current form can help their teams. But not everyone who is playing in WC plays in IPL so the dynamics change. Warner got himself in good nick. Smith too used IPL to get into a decent form so those are positives for Aus, much like Pandya and Russell's good form is for Ind and WI respectively 

 

While doing well in IPL is not a guarantee for success in WC, batting badly in it can be seen as a concern esp. if it shows bad current form, tendency to implode under pressure, and so on 

Edited May 2, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

 

 

 

44 minutes ago, zen said:

 

We know that likes of Shankar and Jadhav can bowl 2-4 overs. But at this point, Shankar will not be selected for just bowling. If he is not batting well, he would be out. Similarly, for Jadhav. 

 

We know that. You cannot guarantee our main players will also be batting well. What if Chahal is not bowling well? What is the use? What if Kuldeep is not bowling well? What is the use?  Your entire argument is based on Shankar will fail with the bat. What if he bats well?

[zen]

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

If a Kohli does badly, India will not replace him. While Shankar and Jadhav are fringe players relatively so we can discuss scenarios where if they fail what options Ind has. Which is what this specific topic is about