vice Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Anyone can see from your posts on this matter how bias works. Classic confusion between knowledge and opinion based on personal stakes in the issue. As for Telugu, anti-hindi demonstrations were also high in AP when it happened. So good on Haryana for showing way forward in national unity. Laggards from Punjab should follow the lead and officially declare Hindi as the second language of the state. This is getting better and better. Please continue. So why is Punjabi now second language of Haryana? Any anti-punjabi demonstrations happening anywhere in the country? Under_Score and Real McCoy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, vice said: This is getting better and better. Please continue. So why is Punjabi now second language of Haryana? Any anti-punjabi demonstrations happening anywhere in the country? becuase haryana is recognizing their second most spoken language, being way more progressive than Punjab. You make it sound like recognizing second most spoken language is a right, not a courtesy. its a courtesy and Haryana is extending that to Punjabi speakers. vice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vice Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: becuase haryana is recognizing their second most spoken language, being way more progressive than Punjab. You make it sound like recognizing second most spoken language is a right, not a courtesy. its a courtesy and Haryana is extending that to Punjabi speakers. You're going in circles and showing how clueless you are. Let me repeat once again since you clearly have comprehension issues. Try playing this game with someone else who isn't well versed in history. Punjabi has always been the second most popular language of Haryana. So what happened to not recognizing its second most popular language for over 50 years? Being the official language means, that it can be taught in schools. thus, Punjabi wasn't taught in schools in Haryana for more than 50 years. Punjabi was shunned in Haryana due to the animosity against Punjab due to the carving out the Punjabi Suba. Haryana's move to shun Punjabi was a political move and adopting an unknown language like Tamil or Telugu. Basically, any language but Punjabi for Haryana. Perhaps, a more easier and welcoming move for the unification of India and diffuse tensions with Punjab was to recognize the language of its neighbors and the locals i.e Punjabi than an alien languages like Tamil/Telugu. Meanwhile, Hindi has been taught in schools in Punjab for decades. This is basic common knowledge anyone from the region will agree to. Edited June 7, 2019 by vice Under_Score, Lannister and Real McCoy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 28 minutes ago, vice said: You're going in circles and showing how clueless you are. Let me repeat once again since you clearly have comprehension issues. Try playing this game with someone else who isn't well versed in history. Punjabi has always been the second most popular language of Haryana. So what happened to not recognizing its second most popular language for over 50 years? The one going in circles is YOU. The bolded part is already explained before. A state is not required to recognize its second most popular language as its second language or any such. It is only required to recognize its most popular language as its state language. This fact is demonstrated by the fact that Tamil does not enjoy second language status in AP ( despite being the second most common spoken language), Marathi does not enjoy that status in Gujarat, neither does it do so in Karnataka. Same goes for Tulu. 28 minutes ago, vice said: Being the official language means, that it can be taught in schools. thus, Punjabi wasn't taught in schools in Haryana for more than 50 years. It isn't required to. 28 minutes ago, vice said: Punjabi was shunned in Haryana due to the animosity against Punjab due to the carving out the Punjabi Suba. Haryana's move to shun Punjabi was a political move and adopting an unknown language like Tamil or Telugu. Basically, any language but Punjabi for Haryana. Thats your biassed OPINION. Mine, from a far more neutral POV, is that the move came as nation re-affirming, because it came during the height of anti Hindi demonstration in the south. 28 minutes ago, vice said: Perhaps, a more easier and welcoming move for the unification of India and diffuse tensions with Punjab was to recognize the language of its neighbors and the locals i.e Punjabi than an alien languages like Tamil/Telugu. Meanwhile, Hindi has been taught in schools in Punjab for decades. This is basic common knowledge anyone from the region will agree to. Hindi being taught in schools for decades does not mean its the official second language of Punjab, since it isn't recognized as such. As i said, Punjab should follow Haryana's lead. Under_Score and vice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vice Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: The one going in circles is YOU. The bolded part is already explained before. A state is not required to recognize its second most popular language as its second language or any such. It is only required to recognize its most popular language as its state language. This fact is demonstrated by the fact that Tamil does not enjoy second language status in AP ( despite being the second most common spoken language), Marathi does not enjoy that status in Gujarat, neither does it do so in Karnataka. Same goes for Tulu. It isn't required to. Thats your biassed OPINION. Mine, from a far more neutral POV, is that the move came as nation re-affirming, because it came during the height of anti Hindi demonstration in the south. Hindi being taught in schools for decades does not mean its the official second language of Punjab, since it isn't recognized as such. As i said, Punjab should follow Haryana's lead. Clueless trolling has its limits but good for comic relief My stance has been the same: Punjabi was shunned in Haryana due to political reasons i.e Punjabi Suba and anti-Punjabi stance. This is the mainstream reason as well. Only clueless trolls like you try going in circles by saying that Tamil/Telugu were adopted for unification of India. LOL. So when Punjabi is made second language of Haryana, it is because of being second popular language. Where are Anti- Punjabi agitations happening now. It must be at its peak in the last decade? Clueless. It's a fact that Haryana/Punjab tensions led to Haryana shunning Punjabi for over 50 years. What better way to show unification of India than for Haryana to diffuse tensions between Punjab/Haryana and recognize Punjabi, the language of its neighbors AND the locals as well. Punjabi wasn't taught in schools in Haryana whereas Hindi was. Recognizing an official language actually makes it enter into the schools. Real McCoy, Under_Score and Muloghonto 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, vice said: My stance has been the same: Punjabi was shunned in Haryana due to political reasons i.e Punjabi Suba and anti-Punjabi stance. This is the mainstream reason as well. This is an opinion, nothing more. Not shared by people like me who are not biassed in the whole issue. 11 minutes ago, vice said: Only clueless trolls like you try going in circles by saying that Tamil/Telugu were adopted for unification of India. LOL. It should tell you something that when neutral people think something, its less biassed than the ones thought up by people who have a personal stake in the issue. 11 minutes ago, vice said: So when Punjabi is made second language of Haryana, it is because of being second popular language. Where are Anti- Punjabi agitations happening now. It must be at its peak in the last decade? Clueless. You are trying to make it sound like second language status can only be granted because of agitation. It isn't so. A state can chooe whatever reason and whatever language it wishes to for its second language. 11 minutes ago, vice said: It's a fact that Haryana/Punjab tensions led to Haryana shunning Punjabi for over 50 years. What better way to show unification of India than for Haryana to diffuse tensions between Punjab/Haryana and recognize Punjabi, the language of its neighbors AND the locals as well. Punjabi wasn't taught in schools in Haryana whereas Hindi was. Recognizing an official language actually makes it enter into the schools. Good on Haryana to show they are the bigger brother in this issue than the backwards Punjabis. Under_Score and vice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vice Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: This is an opinion, nothing more. Not shared by people like me who are not biassed in the whole issue. It's a common fact but for clueless trolls like you, who lack even basic understanding of history of the region. Quote It should tell you something that when neutral people think something, its less biassed than the ones thought up by people who have a personal stake in the issue. Oh please, you're not biased? I can see your bias a mile away. You're actually the worst kind, who is showing the bias, when you don't even know the basic history of the region. Ask any person from the region and they'll share the same sentiments as what I and historical newspapers have conveyed that it was an anti-punjabi political move due to the creation of the Punjabi suba. Modern day Haryanvis even stated Hindi as first language despite Punjabi being their mother tongue. It's a well documented fact. Quote You are trying to make it sound like second language status can only be granted because of agitation. It isn't so. A state can chooe whatever reason and whatever language it wishes to for its second language. It's only logical to give second language preference as per the language demographics than a far-fetched language which has NO relation to the locals and there's no incentive either historical or career wise. Quote Good on Haryana to show they are the bigger brother in this issue than the backwards Punjabis. Yet, Hindi has always been taught in schools in Punjab whereas in Haryana, Punjabi has not for over 50 years and who forced alien languages like Tamil/Telugu than local languages like Punjabi. Edited June 7, 2019 by vice Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, vice said: It's a common fact but for clueless trolls like you, who lack even basic understanding of history of the region. Its not a fact, its an opinion. Prove your so-called fact, bud. Prove to us that Bansi Lal lied. Quote Oh please, you're not biased? Not in the Haryana vs Punjab issue. I have no horses in that race, mate. You do. Quote I can see your bias a mile away. You're actually the worst kind, who is showing the bias, when you don't even know the basic history of the region. If you stick around this forum long enough, you'll find out how much history i know. I know I've incurred the wrath of Punjabis because i pointed out that Punjab is nothing more than a historic backwater province of the Indian subcontinent, never ONCE forming a unified kingdom under its own rulers, nevermind forming an empire, until LITERALLY 200 years ago. Under one man. A freak occurence. And then he died and it went the normal Punjabi way - to pieces. Quote Ask any person from the region and they'll share the same sentiments as what I and historical newspapers have conveyed that it was an anti-punjabi political move due to the creation of the Punjabi suba. A million opinions don't make a fact, champ. You have presented no reason to doubt Bansi Lal's version, given that the move came during the height of anti-hindi demonstration from the South, not at the height of Punjab violence. Quote It's only logical to give second language preference as per the language demographics than a far-fetched language which has NO relation to the locals and there's no incentive either historical or career wise. Sure. Thats one way to look at it. There are other ways to look at it too. On the other hand, its also logical to give preference to far-flung languages to build a greater knit community in the nation and expedite cultural integration and understanding between groups who are too far flung to develop syncreticism on their own. Learning a far-flung language gives the people of that state greater employbility in the state of the said language. Since this is India and not Soviet Union/China and there are no internal border restrictions on movement, it can easily be argued that teaching Telugu or Tamil to Haryanvis increased their job success in AP or TN. Quote Yet, Hindi has always been taught in schools in Punjab whereas in Haryana, Punjabi has not for over 50 years and who forced alien languages like Tamil/Telugu than local languages like Punjabi. They are Indian languages, therefore, there is nothing alien about them. As i said and the constitution backs me up - a state is under NO OBLIGATION to recognize its second most common language as the second language. Punjab can literally choose Manipuri as their second language and its just as legally valid as picking Hindi or Bengali or Tamil. Edited June 7, 2019 by Muloghonto Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vice Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Muloghonto said: Its not a fact, its an opinion. Prove your so-called fact, bud. Prove to us that Bansi Lal lied. A million opinions don't make a fact, champ. You have presented no reason to doubt Bansi Lal's version, given that the move came during the height of anti-hindi demonstration from the South, not at the height of Punjab violence. What's there to prove. It's common knowledge. It's a fact that many modern day Haryanvis with Punjabi roots stated Hindi as mother tongue despite punjabi as their mother tongue. Look it up. Only a clueless person with bias would start finding other reasons. Haryana was just carved out a few years ago and Bansi Lal brought the change in his first couple of years at the office. You obviously don't know the importance Punjabi played in laying out the boundaries. Quote Not in the Haryana vs Punjab issue. I have no horses in that race, mate. You do. Trust me, you actually have an agenda. It's not hard to see that someone who knows zilc about the region and its history started to find and state everything opposite of the actual reality. Play this game with someone else. Oh wait, just had to look a few sentences further in your post. Haha, perhaps try to be a little more subtle in your approach. At the moment, it's blatant. Quote They are Indian languages, therefore, there is nothing alien about them. As i said and the constitution backs me up - a state is under NO OBLIGATION to recognize its second most common language as the second language. Punjab can literally choose Manipuri as their second language and its just as legally valid as picking Hindi or Bengali or Tamil. Sure. Thats one way to look at it. There are other ways to look at it too. On the other hand, its also logical to give preference to far-flung languages to build a greater knit community in the nation and expedite cultural integration and understanding between groups who are too far flung to develop syncreticism on their own. Learning a far-flung language gives the people of that state greater employbility in the state of the said language. Since this is India and not Soviet Union/China and there are no internal border restrictions on movement, it can easily be argued that teaching Telugu or Tamil to Haryanvis increased their job success in AP or TN. Doesn't change the fact that shunning Punjabi over an alien language was a political move to undermine Punjabi in the state where it was the second most popular language. Of course, the languages are Indian but Tamil and Telugu are alien languages in Punjab/Haryana. By opting to recognize a second official language means, it has to be taught in schools if there is a demand for it. The only 'employbility' that came was for the teachers teaching these languages. Guess what, despite Tamil/Telugu being given second language status, there was not much if any demand to learn these languages and the teachers that were employed to teach these languages basically went on to teach other subjects. But in the process, it basically shut the door on Punjabi. Edited June 7, 2019 by vice Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haarkarjeetgaye Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Arre kyun jhagad rahe ho Haryana ke naam pe. Yeh hai Haryana Jithe doodh dahin da khana mane zyada details bera koni par official language Haryana ki Hindi se, kyunki Haryanvi bas boli jaa sake hai, likhi koni. aur bhai fir English and Punjabi hai Haryana mein. Tamil to wahan koi na Bol sake hai. Koshish Kar ke dekh lo. With a fair degree of confidence I can say, I may be the one of the 100 few Harayanvis who knows a bit of Tamil. “re chore, un per yenna” Under_Score and vice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, vice said: What's there to prove. It's common knowledge. Common opinion does not equate to common knowledge. Just like its 'common knowledge' across the arab world that the jews have some sort of secret society to take over the world. Doesn't make it true, neither does what your opinion on the matter is. 12 minutes ago, vice said: It's a fact that many modern day Haryanvis with Punjabi roots state Hindi as mother tongue despite punjabi as their mother tongue. Look it up. Only a clueless person with bias would start finding other reasons. Haryana was just carved out a few years ago and Bansi Lal brought the change in his first couple of years at the office. You obviously don't know the importance Punjabi played in laying out the boundaries. But Bansi Lal brought it forth specifically when there were anti-hindi riots in the south. So his casus belli makes sense. 12 minutes ago, vice said: Trust me, you actually have an agenda. It's not hard to see that someone who knows zilc about the region and its history started to find and state everything opposite of the actual reality. Play this game with someone else. Oh wait, just had to look a few sentences further in your post. Haha, perhaps try to be a little more subtle in your approach. At the moment, it's blatant. Whatever my agenda may be, its less biassed than the ones like you who have horses in this race. Basic lesson in objectivity is that those who have no stakes in the issue are more objective about the issue. Entire legal framework of judiciary is based on this. 12 minutes ago, vice said: Doesn't change the fact that shunning Punjabi over an alien language was a political move to undermine Punjabi in the state where it was the second most popular language. Doesn't make it a political move to shun Punjabi just because you and a few butt-hurt Punjabis feel that way. Given that the move came during the anti-hindi protests in the south, the causus-belli makes sense. 12 minutes ago, vice said: Of course, the languages are Indian but Tamil and Telugu are alien languages in Punjab/Haryana. By opting to recognize a second official language means, it has to be taught in schools if there is a demand for it. The only 'employbility' that came was for the teachers teaching these languages. Wrong. It massively improves employability of anyone wishing to work in the state. This is the reason why Biharis an Marwaris in Kolkata have basic understanding and competency in Bengali as well. Under_Score and vice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haarkarjeetgaye Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 @beetle bhai. jawab mil gaya Tamil ka Khel kyun khela gaya Haryana mein. Ib dekhte hain Khattar kitni Tamil faila sake hai Haryana mein aur Naidu kitni Hindi faila sake hai Tamilnadu mein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vice Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said: Common opinion does not equate to common knowledge. Just like its 'common knowledge' across the arab world that the jews have some sort of secret society to take over the world. Doesn't make it true, neither does what your opinion on the matter is. Doesn't make it a political move to shun Punjabi just because you and a few butt-hurt Punjabis feel that way. Given that the move came during the anti-hindi protests in the south, the causus-belli makes sense. But Bansi Lal brought it forth specifically when there were anti-hindi riots in the south. So his casus belli makes sense. Utter rubbish again. First Tamil, then Telugu.. so agitation lasted over 40 years? When Haryana just had tensions with Punjab along linguistic lines, then shunning Punjabi WAS a political move. If the motive was unification of India, why not do it with your neighbors over which you just had tensions along linguistic lines?? Water sharing issues, capital city issues, and so. If there was ONE state, Haryana was in need of extending the olive branch, then it was none other than Punjab. Not to forget the local roughly 11% or more who knew Punjabi in Haryana. You can keep on deflecting the real issue at hand which was the anti Punjabi stance at that time. Personally, I don't have any issue learning new languages. I have a keen interest in languages. But what happened here was actually shutting down one language due to political motives. I have tried my hand at many a new languages. Point is the option to learn was removed for Punjabi despite it being a local language. If that's not a politically motivated move, then one must be a fool or biased not to comprehend this. Quote Whatever my agenda may be, its less biassed than the ones like you who have horses in this race. Basic lesson in objectivity is that those who have no stakes in the issue are more objective about the issue. Entire legal framework of judiciary is based on this. But you have the biggest horse in the race which is anything anti punjabi. For some reason, you seem to suffer from anything punjabi. This coming from a newbie and read you in a few posts. Like I said, you're looking like a blatant troll here. Try to be a little more subtle next time around. Quote Wrong. It massively improves employability of anyone wishing to work in the state. This is the reason why Biharis an Marwaris in Kolkata have basic understanding and competency in Bengali as well. lol. How many went on to learn the alien languages Tamil/Telugu and actually moved there? What is the percentage? As stated, there was hardly any demand for these languages at that time and the teachers basically started teaching other subjects.. Bihar is right next door to Bengal. Punjab is right next door to Haryana. Which language benefits local Haryanvis? Punjabi or Tamil/Telugu? Obviously, the local regional languages should have more say than outside far flung languages. Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 25 minutes ago, vice said: Utter rubbish again. First Tamil, then Telugu.. so agitation lasted over 40 years? Non sequitur. Look up the meaning. Something done to pacify an agitation does NOT mean it comes off the moment the agitation is over. When you get grounded for having a tantrum, you don't get to come off of your grounding the moment you STFU either. 25 minutes ago, vice said: When Haryana just had tensions with Punjab along linguistic lines, then shunning Punjabi WAS a political move. Says you. A Punjabi. When Haryana did it at the height of anti-hindi agitation, it was a move to pacify the southies. 25 minutes ago, vice said: If the motive was unification of India, why not do it with your neighbors over which you just had tensions along linguistic lines?? Because the action came when agitation against hindi was high in the south. 25 minutes ago, vice said: Water sharing issues, capital city issues, and so. If there was ONE state, Haryana was in need of extending the olive branch, then it was none other than Punjab. Not to forget the local roughly 11% or more who knew Punjabi in Haryana. You can keep on deflecting the real issue at hand which was the anti Punjabi stance at that time. The anti-Punjabi stance is your bias of being a Punjabi speaking. Just like the other moron here @Under_Score who is too much of a pu$$y to criticize Sikh terrorists who started terrorizing the Hindus of Punjab & Haryana first. 25 minutes ago, vice said: Personally, I don't have any issue learning new languages. I have a keen interest in languages. But what happened here was actually shutting down one language due to political motives. I have tried my hand at many a new languages. Point is the option to learn was removed for Punjabi despite it being a local language. If that's not a politically motivated move, then one must be a fool or biased not to comprehend this. Well you don't have the option to learn Marathi in Kannada medium schools despite Marathi being a strong second language in the region. Same goes for Nepalese in West Bengal. 25 minutes ago, vice said: But you have the biggest horse in the race which is anything anti punjabi. For some reason, you seem to suffer from anything punjabi. This coming from a newbie and read you in a few posts. Like I said, you're looking like a blatant troll here. Try to be a little more subtle next time around. Having disdain for the over-emphasized 'Johnny come lately' to the Indian scene , aka disdain for Punjabi 'contributions' is not being anti-Punjabi, its anti-hype of Punjabi culture. The fact remains that prior to the last 500 years, Punjab remained a NOBODY in Indian scene. Punjabis just hate hearing that because they pretend as if they have been a key player in Indian civilization/history. They are not. 25 minutes ago, vice said: lol. How many went on to learn the alien languages Tamil/Telugu and actually moved there? What is the percentage? You tell me. 25 minutes ago, vice said: As stated, there was hardly any demand for these languages at that time and the teachers basically started teaching other subjects.. Bihar is right next door to Bengal. Punjab is right next door to Haryana. Which language benefits local Haryanvis? Punjabi or Tamil/Telugu? Obviously, the local regional languages should have more say than outside far flung languages. Disagree. The far flung languages are more important to the educated ones, since the educated ones mostly can speak the local languages to their local vicinity and its the educated ones who move around for jobs across the country. A Bong is far better served learning Punjabi or Marathi than learning Bhojpuri or Maithili. Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Haarkarjeetgaye said: Arre kyun jhagad rahe ho Haryana ke naam pe. Yeh hai Haryana Jithe doodh dahin da khana mane zyada details bera koni par official language Haryana ki Hindi se, kyunki Haryanvi bas boli jaa sake hai, likhi koni. aur bhai fir English and Punjabi hai Haryana mein. Tamil to wahan koi na Bol sake hai. Koshish Kar ke dekh lo. With a fair degree of confidence I can say, I may be the one of the 100 few Harayanvis who knows a bit of Tamil. “re chore, un per yenna” You are reminding me of the movie Dangal with your haryanvi accent Under_Score 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechEng Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 @G_B_ @beetle @Trichromatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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