Muslim barbers in Moradabad refuse to give haircuts to Dalits

[Alam_dar]

3 hours ago, straight_drive said:

Shows the freedom by law in Pakistan

Sent from my SM-J701F using Tapatalk
 

I doubt that Pakistani law has to do with it, but it seems to be due to the society norms that we behave like this. 

[Pollack]

3 hours ago, Under_Score said:

All Humans are equal, Dalit caste didn't deserve mis-treatment in the past and also shouldn't be discriminated in this modern era as well.

 

Having said that....the Reservation system which qualifies Dalits for Engg or Medical seats in College & Universities doesn't make much sense. Instead, a monetary help by the Government would be better.

 

Let's say...a Dalit Medical student becomes a Doctor after passing with low pass marks... 35% and becomes a Surgeon at a hospital...the survival chance of his patient during a life saving Surgery will also be 35% and this in unfair to the patient who will be relying & also paying a hefty bill for his/her surgery.

 

Whoever came up with this low scoring marks for Dalits idea in India is an absolute moron.

 

Sorry...Don't mean any offense to Dalits here on ICF...it's my personal opinion.

 

 

Assumption you are making is percentage translates to skills.With Indian Education system it is untrue.

[Ranvir]

36 minutes ago, Shaz1 said:

When we go outside we seek these same christians for better jobs. I noticed who ever has come from Pakistan removes there dirty habits in order to fit in the society.

It's got nothing to do with Christianity. Everyone in Pakistan knows that a Christian in Punjab is a Dalit. That is the difference.

 

Pakistanis dont see any similarity between a White Christian and a Pakistani Christian. Just like most people don't seen any similarity between black and white Christians.

 

[Alam_dar]

6 hours ago, First class said:

Other things about "chooras" in Pakistan society you described  are true and sad, but this thing "My mother and my aunti never let me eat something in front of Chora woman and her children, who used to clean the toilets in our house and in our whole neighbourhood. They were of opinion that one gets the "evil eye" (nazr-e-bad) if one eats in front of these children" I never heard and I thing unique to your mother and aunti, unheard ( for me at least ) in  Pakistan, I never heard this thing. 

Muslims today are shameful of the concept of "Evil Eye" in Islam, while it is just like Black Magic in Hinduism. Thus, for decades Mullahs are trying to hide the Ahadith about Evil Eye, while they are ridiculous and new generation of Muslims could not accept them logically. 

 

Here are few Authentic Ahadith about Evil Eye:

 

Sahih Bukhari (link):

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet ordered me or somebody else to do Ruqya (Taweez etc) from an evil eye.

 

And most ridiculous authentic Hadith is this one, where Prophet Muhammad ordered that anus and penis of the person (who caused the evil eye) should be washed and poured upon that person who got the evil eye (link):

 

Imam Ahmad, Malik, al-Nasai and Ibn Hibban narrated from Sahl ibn Haneef that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came out and traveled with him towards Makkah, until they were in the mountain pass of al-Kharar in al-Jahfah. There Sahl ibn Haneef did ghusl (bathed), and he was a handsome white-skinned man with beautiful skin. ‘Amir ibn Rabee’ah, one of Banu ‘Adiyy ibn K’ab looked at him whilst he was doing ghusl and said: “I have never seen such beautiful skin as this, not even the skin of a virgin,” and Sahl fell to the ground. They went to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allah, can you do anything for Sahl, because by Allah he cannot raise his head.” He said, “Do you accuse anyone with regard to him?” They said, “‘Amir ibn Rabee’ah looked at him.” So the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) called ‘Amir and rebuked him strongly. He said, “Why would one of you kill his brother? If you see something that you like, then pray for blessing for him.” Then he said to him, “Wash yourself for him.” So he washed his face, hands, forearms, knees and the sides of his feet, and inside his izaar (lower garment) in the vessel. Then that water was poured over him, and a man poured it over his head and back from behind. He did that to him, then Sahl got up and joined the people and there was nothing wrong with him.  Classed as saheeh (authentic) by al-Albani in al-Mishkat.

 

There are many more authentic Ahadith about evil eye, and very ridiculous ones, but due to the influence of modern Mullahism, it is tried to keep them hidden from the public. 

 

 

[Ranvir]

1 hour ago, Shaz1 said:

So your saying just cause they are Dalit they get treated poorly and not cause they are christians? 

Of course that's the reason. You dont understand just how deep rooted the caste system is in the subcontinent. It's probably less so in Pakistan than in India but it is still there.

Pretty much all Christians in Punjab are from a dalit background just like all Buddhists in Maharashtra.

If Muhammad Yusuf's family converted to Islam they would still be seen as low caste people to be avoided.

 

The vast majority of religious conversions were not for spiritual reasons but for socio economical benefits.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Ranvir

[beetle]

6 hours ago, Under_Score said:

All Humans are equal, Dalit caste didn't deserve mis-treatment in the past and also shouldn't be discriminated in this modern era as well.

 

Having said that....the Reservation system which qualifies Dalits for Engg or Medical seats in College & Universities doesn't make much sense. Instead, a monetary help by the Government would be better.

 

Let's say...a Dalit Medical student becomes a Doctor after passing with low pass marks... 35% and becomes a Surgeon at a hospital...the survival chance of his patient during a life saving Surgery will also be 35% and this in unfair to the patient who will be relying & also paying a hefty bill for his/her surgery.

 

Whoever came up with this low scoring marks for Dalits idea in India is an absolute moron.

 

Sorry...Don't mean any offense to Dalits here on ICF...it's my personal opinion.

 

 

It is not so easy when the discrimination is so deep rooted.

Just getting money won't help if they can't go to good schools and colleges.

The discrimination is at every level hence the reservation in jobs too.

 

Even after so many decades tge discrimination at the basic level is disgusting.

 

Regarding the medical colleges....I don't  think the difference in % age is so large.Besides they have to study and pass exams. There is no doubt that it lowers standards but the fault lies with the entire society for treating people so bad based on birth.

.

 

[First class]

34 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

Muslims today are shameful of the concept of "Evil Eye" in Islam, while it is just like Black Magic in Hinduism. Thus, for decades Mullahs are trying to hide the Ahadith about Evil Eye, while they are ridiculous and new generation of Muslims could not accept them logically. 

 

Here are few Authentic Ahadith about Evil Eye:

 

Sahih Bukhari (link):

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet ordered me or somebody else to do Ruqya (Taweez etc) from an evil eye.

 

And most ridiculous authentic Hadith is this one, where Prophet Muhammad ordered that anus and penis of the person (who caused the evil eye) should be washed and poured upon that person who got the evil eye (link):

 

Imam Ahmad, Malik, al-Nasai and Ibn Hibban narrated from Sahl ibn Haneef that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came out and traveled with him towards Makkah, until they were in the mountain pass of al-Kharar in al-Jahfah. There Sahl ibn Haneef did ghusl (bathed), and he was a handsome white-skinned man with beautiful skin. ‘Amir ibn Rabee’ah, one of Banu ‘Adiyy ibn K’ab looked at him whilst he was doing ghusl and said: “I have never seen such beautiful skin as this, not even the skin of a virgin,” and Sahl fell to the ground. They went to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said, “O Messenger of Allah, can you do anything for Sahl, because by Allah he cannot raise his head.” He said, “Do you accuse anyone with regard to him?” They said, “‘Amir ibn Rabee’ah looked at him.” So the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) called ‘Amir and rebuked him strongly. He said, “Why would one of you kill his brother? If you see something that you like, then pray for blessing for him.” Then he said to him, “Wash yourself for him.” So he washed his face, hands, forearms, knees and the sides of his feet, and inside his izaar (lower garment) in the vessel. Then that water was poured over him, and a man poured it over his head and back from behind. He did that to him, then Sahl got up and joined the people and there was nothing wrong with him.  Classed as saheeh (authentic) by al-Albani in al-Mishkat.

 

There are many more authentic Ahadith about evil eye, and very ridiculous ones, but due to the influence of modern Mullahism, it is tried to keep them hidden from the public. 

 

 

Yes there are uneducated and pinhead muslims who blindly follow similarly uneducated and pinhead Maulvis , but as far I have seen no educated and sane muslim believes in them and I'm sure you know ,  Jahil maulvis don;t have many followers in educated Pakistanis. So do not blame all muslims for that .

[Ranvir]

6 minutes ago, First class said:

Yes there are uneducated and pinhead muslims who blindly follow similarly uneducated and pinhead Maulvis , but as far I have seen no educated and sane muslim believes in them and I'm sure you know ,  Jahil maulvis don;t have many followers in educated Pakistanis. So do not blame all muslims for that .

Pretty much everyone was uneducated when the major religions were formed. Only gullible people can believe in fairytales. The only reason religion survives is due to childhood indoctrination.

 

Something like scientology is ridiculed today but if it was formed a 1000 years ago it would have been easier to fool the masses.

[Alam_dar]

19 minutes ago, First class said:

Yes there are uneducated and pinhead muslims who blindly follow similarly uneducated and pinhead Maulvis , but as far I have seen no educated and sane muslim believes in them and I'm sure you know ,  Jahil maulvis don;t have many followers in educated Pakistanis. So do not blame all muslims for that .

You misunderstood me. 

I am basically blaming religion of Islam for this concept of evil eye. 

It was a wide spread practice among the Salaf (earlier) Muslim generations of Muslims like Sahaba and Tabaeen, till this century. Every health problem was claimed to be the result of evil eye, except of clear diseases like when snake bit or visible outer injuries. 

 

Here you could see the practise of Sahaba in general about evil eye:

 

Sahih Bukhari (link):

Narrated IsraiI:

`Uthman bin `Abdullah bin Mauhab said, "My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama." Isra'il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. `Uthman added, "If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama.

 

 

Therefore, Prophet Muhammad and Muslims were equally superstitious as the Hindus are about black magic. But later Muslims tried to show that they were not superstitious, and it is only limited to Hindus and their religion, which is not true while both of them were equally superstitious. 

 

 

[First class]

7 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

You misunderstood me. 

I am basically blaming religion of Islam for this concept of evil eye. 

It was a wide spread practice among the Salaf (earlier) Muslim generations of Muslims like Sahaba and Tabaeen, till this century. Every health problem was claimed to be the result of evil eye, except of clear diseases like when snake bit or visible outer injuries. 

 

Here you could see the practise of Sahaba in general about evil eye:

 

Sahih Bukhari (link):

Narrated IsraiI:

`Uthman bin `Abdullah bin Mauhab said, "My people sent me with a bowl of water to Um Salama." Isra'il approximated three fingers ('indicating the small size of the container in which there was some hair of the Prophet. `Uthman added, "If any person suffered from evil eye or some other disease, he would send a vessel (containing water) to Um Salama.

 

 

Therefore, Prophet Muhammad and Muslims were equally superstitious as the Hindus are about black magic. But later Muslims tried to show that they were not superstitious, and it is only limited to Hindus and their religion, which is not true while both of them were equally superstitious. 

 

 

Don;t try to be a Muslim scholar , which you're not. There have been some ridiculous things attributed to Prophet , Sahaba and some other by these non-authentic "hadees" by some evil mullas and non-mulims, and people like you start looking for these kind of things rather than the more transparent and authentic message from Prophet, and in Quraan. Every Muslim possesses a brain and if he/she knows the basic teaching of Islam, its not difficult to assess what is genuine and what is not. I try not to dig in and  criticize any religion because religion is a complicated things and its very difficult to understand some complicated matters in every religion unless you belong to that religion and if you are a real scholar in that religion and its a sensitive matter too . Couple of minutes of googleling does not make you a scholar. 

[Alam_dar]

2 hours ago, First class said:

Don;t try to be a Muslim scholar , which you're not. There have been some ridiculous things attributed to Prophet , Sahaba and some other by these non-authentic "hadees" by some evil mullas and non-mulims, and people like you start looking for these kind of things rather than the more transparent and authentic message from Prophet, and in Quraan. Every Muslim possesses a brain and if he/she knows the basic teaching of Islam, its not difficult to assess what is genuine and what is not. I try not to dig in and  criticize any religion because religion is a complicated things and its very difficult to understand some complicated matters in every religion unless you belong to that religion and if you are a real scholar in that religion and its a sensitive matter too . Couple of minutes of googleling does not make you a scholar. 

If a religion is for human beings, then it is ridiculous that only handful could understand it. 

Actually, not even handful could understand it, but these handfuls are contradicting each other and refuting each other on these matters. 

Let me ask you a simple question, what was the logic behind this that Allah made the issue of evil-eye so much complicated that only so called handfuls could understand it? 

 

It is not I am who is claiming evil eye to be true in Islam, but these the these so called handfuls who have been calling it authentic for the last 14 centuries. But when they are shown how ridiculous they are, then it is answered that we are ignorant illiterates and have no right to criticise the religion and Allah. 

So, there are tons of Ahadith about evil eye being Haq, but not a single tradition that evil eye is nothing, but a superstition.

But the modern day Fatwa is again this that we are illiterate and googling us make a criminal to criticise Allah regarding evil eye. 

 

If there are really real scholars present, then they have full liberty to answer the questions regarding Islam. But again we see there is none answering this question, but new trend is to hide it from the masses. 

 

If the condition is not being Phd doctor in Islam for entering it, then there should not be the condition of being Phd doctor to criticise it or to leave it. 

 

It is unfortunate that in 21 century, still religion/religions have been dealt as holy cows, and beyond any criticism. Each and every religion and ideology has to be criticised, just like science allows to criticise each and all claims that it makes. 

 

For judging any religion, the condition is not "complete knowledge", but the condition is "AQL and Justice". The knowledgeables of that religion have full liberty to bring their Argument regarding that issue. But if they fail, then that religion fails too and we as human beings could judge is very well. 

 

As far as I could ponder upon it, then it is simple that there was no revelation from any Allah on the skies, but it was the drama of Prophet Muhammad himself, who was a human being himself, and he was following the Arab customs of that time regarding evil eye. Thus evil eye is not only believe to be Haq, but also the cure is ridiculous like washing anus and penis and pouring water upon the person suffering from evil eye. 

Edited August 3, 2019 by Alam_dar

[First class]

I respect all religions and don;t discuss it, not my favorite topic for discussion, particularly not the BS you're talking about. 

[Alam_dar]

5 hours ago, First class said:

I respect all religions and don;t discuss it, not my favorite topic for discussion, particularly not the BS you're talking about. 

I respect all humans irrespective of which religion or ideology they follow. 

But I don't consider any religion to be holy cow and above the criticism. 

Hopefully, one day you would also be able to see all these problems in the religions. 

 

Unfortunately, 99% of Muslims don't know even 1% of the black side of Islam. For example, do you know that:

 

* Prophet Muhammad made the slave women to move with naked breasts in the society? 
* Do you know that Prophet Muhammad made the slave women to be sold in this same half naked state in the Bazars of Slavery. Moreover, the buyers were allowed to come and touch all of their body parts too except vagina? (i.e. they were allowed to play with their breasts, buttocks, thighs etc before buying them)?

* Do you know Prophet Muhammad allowed the rape of the slave women without their consent? And after master has fulfilled his sexual lust, he sold the slave woman to 2nd master who raped her and then sold to 3rd master....and this chain of rape continued? 

Even Jews and Christians religions were better than Prophet Muhammad, who although allowed the rape of slave girl, but then masters were not allowed to sell them further, but after sex those slave girls became the wife of the master and could not be sold further. 

 

Off course you could again turn blind eyes from it while blaming it to be BS, but unfortunately this is the unanimous reality and history of the 1300 years of slavery in Islam with all the proofs from Islamic sources. 

 

Edited August 4, 2019 by Alam_dar