Alam_dar Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 @Moochad (1) I am sorry if it is not making sense to you that Study of Dr. Shinde has nothing to do with the AIT which took place later, while Dr. Shinde was studing the DNA of a woman from IVC, who existed before the Aryan Invasion. Therefore, Dr. Shinde cannot deny the AIT based upon the results from this study. The video (that you posted above) has the title: "The Ancient Harappan Genome and its impact on the Aryan Migration Theory ..." This title is thus totally wrong. (2) I didn't reply about the studies that you posted, while I already replied from my side that those were earlier studies, while the latest Study of 2017 is the final conclusion. This final study already took into consideration all the previous studies and answered them. The Study of 2019 (by Dr. Shinde) has nothing to do with the study of 2017, and it is not denying the 2017 study. (3) 12 hours ago, Moochad said: In 2013 Singh and co-workers extended the Kivisild study with some acute observations, namely that the ANI and ASI populations mixed robustly between 1900 to 4200 years ago and that these two groups didn’t mix either before or after this window. Actually this part is itself proving the Aryan Invasion. I already posted the article above about this window of 1900 to 4200 years (link): // Once these Steppe people entered India, a great churning ensued. They mixed with the Indus Valley people to create what is now called the Ancestral North Indian grouping. However, a significant portion of the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation were pushed south when the Steppe people entered. They then mixed with the Ancient Ancestral South Indians to form a group known as the Ancestral South Indian population. For the next 2,000 years, Indians mixed freely. As a result, most modern South Asians are some mix of Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. However, this great churning stopped around 1,900 years ago when Indian society calcified into thousands of endogamous groups who do not intermarry across caste lines – a societal structure maintained till today. // The Vedic Religion along with Caste System didn't start immediately after the arrival of the Steppe people 4000 years ago. It took time to evolve. And this is this time window where the Indians mixed freely with each other for about 2000 years. But once the Vedic Religion evolved and established along with it's caste system, then it ended this free mixing of the Indians. This is again a proof that Vedic Religion didn't exist before the arrival of the Steppe people and this Vedic religion played no role during first 2000 years after the Aryan invasion/migration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: @Moochad (1) I am sorry if it is not making sense to you that Study of Dr. Shinde has nothing to do with the AIT which took place later, while Dr. Shinde was studing the DNA of a woman from IVC, who existed before the Aryan Invasion. Therefore, Dr. Shinde cannot deny the AIT based upon the results from this study. The video (that you posted above) has the title: "The Ancient Harappan Genome and its impact on the Aryan Migration Theory ..." This title is thus totally wrong. (2) I didn't reply about the studies that you posted, while I already replied from my side that those were earlier studies, while the latest Study of 2017 is the final conclusion. This final study already took into consideration all the previous studies and answered them. The Study of 2019 (by Dr. Shinde) has nothing to do with the study of 2017, and it is not denying the 2017 study. (3) Actually this part is itself proving the Aryan Invasion. I already posted the article above about this window of 1900 to 4200 years (link): // Once these Steppe people entered India, a great churning ensued. They mixed with the Indus Valley people to create what is now called the Ancestral North Indian grouping. However, a significant portion of the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation were pushed south when the Steppe people entered. They then mixed with the Ancient Ancestral South Indians to form a group known as the Ancestral South Indian population. For the next 2,000 years, Indians mixed freely. As a result, most modern South Asians are some mix of Ancestral North Indian and Ancestral South Indian. However, this great churning stopped around 1,900 years ago when Indian society calcified into thousands of endogamous groups who do not intermarry across caste lines – a societal structure maintained till today. // The Vedic Religion along with Caste System didn't start immediately after the arrival of the Steppe people 4000 years ago. It took time to evolve. And this is this time window where the Indians mixed freely with each other for about 2000 years. But once the Vedic Religion evolved and established along with it's caste system, then it ended this free mixing of the Indians. This is again a proof that Vedic Religion didn't exist before the arrival of the Steppe people and this Vedic religion played no role during first 2000 years after the Aryan invasion/migration. Nonsense propaganda. The latest study still has geneticists believe R1 originates in India. No amount of foreign invader loving Pakigiri will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 Link: // Q: Were the people of the Harappan civilisation the original source of the Sanskritic language and culture of Vedic Hinduism? A: No. Q: Do their genes survive as a significant component in India's current population? A: Most definitely. Q: Were they closer to popular perceptions of 'Aryans' or of 'Dravidians'? A: Dravidians. Q: Were they more akin to the South Indians or North Indians of today? A: South Indians. // From the results of 2019 study, the most important question is why IVC people were more akin to the South Indians than the North Indians of today? Another important question: Why Steppe DNA is more common in the Brahmins as compared to the others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Just now, Alam_dar said: Link: // Q: Were the people of the Harappan civilisation the original source of the Sanskritic language and culture of Vedic Hinduism? A: No. Q: Do their genes survive as a significant component in India's current population? A: Most definitely. Q: Were they closer to popular perceptions of 'Aryans' or of 'Dravidians'? A: Dravidians. Q: Were they more akin to the South Indians or North Indians of today? A: South Indians. // From the results of 2019 study, the most important question is why IVC people were more akin to the South Indians than the North Indians of today? Another important question: Why Steppe DNA is more common in the Brahmins as compared to the others? Steppe DNA is original to India and since most people who left India are of higher castes, due to higher economic means, steppe has more higher caste DNA influx from India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) Question: How this huge amount of 17% Steppe DNA entered into the modern Indians? Answer is simple. They were the conquerors and thus had the first right to mating as compared to the local men. Link: // Much of this Steppe ancestry is male, the research shows. This means that Steppe migrants “were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups” – which tells us something about the aggressive nature of Indo-Aryan migration into India. (i.e. it was more of Aryan Invasion than movement/migration) The Science paper concludes that there was an “asymmetric social interaction between descendants of Steppe pastoralists and peoples of the Indus Periphery Cline [Indus Valley Civilisation]”. In simpler language, David Reich explains that the preponderence of male Steppe DNA means that this encounter between the Steppe pastoralists and the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation “cannot have been entirely friendly”. This male bias is standard for Indo-European migration. In fact, when these Steppe pastoralists reached Europe, Reich’s research found an even larger proportion of male Steppe genes. In large parts of Western Europe, Steppe migrants almost completely displaced local males in a short time span, leading to one Danish archeologist postulating that the coming of these Indo-European speakers “must have been a kind of genocide”. This pattern, wrote David Reich in his 2018 book Who We Are and How We Got Here, “is exactly what one would expect from an Indo-European-speaking people taking the reins of political and social power 4,000 years ago and mixing with the local peoples in a stratified society, with males from the groups in power having more success in finding mates than those from the disenfranchised groups”. This ancient encounter is, incredibly, reflected even in the present-day Hindu caste system, with Steppe DNA correlated with upper-caste status. “Groups that view themselves as being of traditionally priestly status, including Brahmins who are traditional custodians of liturgical texts in the early Indo-European language Sanskrit, tend (with exceptions) to have more Steppe ancestry than expected on the basis of ANI-ASI mixture,” says the research in Science. // 70% Brahmins have r1a Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect. Link: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml So the question remains why Brahmins have more of Steppe DNA? Are you going to answer it in this way that the Brahmin Women of that time were more fond of the Steppe Males? I hope not. It was not about attraction for the Steppe males, but it was due to forcefully taking the local women by the conquerors. Please note that later Arab/Iranian/Afghan, Uzbek Muslims also invaded India. But still there DNA is hardly present in India, as compared to the huge 17% Steppe DNA. Therefore, it's worth noting that this genetic footprint of Steppe is of an entirely more impressive order than the relatively inconsequential biological legacy of Islamic or European colonial invasions that often preoccupy the political imagination in India. Edited November 16, 2019 by Alam_dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Question: How this huge amount of 17% Steppe DNA entered into the modern Indians? Answer is simple. They were the conquerors and thus had the first right to mating as compared to the local men. Link: // Much of this Steppe ancestry is male, the research shows. This means that Steppe migrants “were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups” – which tells us something about the aggressive nature of Indo-Aryan migration into India. (i.e. it was more of Aryan Invasion than movement/migration) The Science paper concludes that there was an “asymmetric social interaction between descendants of Steppe pastoralists and peoples of the Indus Periphery Cline [Indus Valley Civilisation]”. In simpler language, David Reich explains that the preponderence of male Steppe DNA means that this encounter between the Steppe pastoralists and the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation “cannot have been entirely friendly”. This male bias is standard for Indo-European migration. In fact, when these Steppe pastoralists reached Europe, Reich’s research found an even larger proportion of male Steppe genes. In large parts of Western Europe, Steppe migrants almost completely displaced local males in a short time span, leading to one Danish archeologist postulating that the coming of these Indo-European speakers “must have been a kind of genocide”. This pattern, wrote David Reich in his 2018 book Who We Are and How We Got Here, “is exactly what one would expect from an Indo-European-speaking people taking the reins of political and social power 4,000 years ago and mixing with the local peoples in a stratified society, with males from the groups in power having more success in finding mates than those from the disenfranchised groups”. This ancient encounter is, incredibly, reflected even in the present-day Hindu caste system, with Steppe DNA correlated with upper-caste status. “Groups that view themselves as being of traditionally priestly status, including Brahmins who are traditional custodians of liturgical texts in the early Indo-European language Sanskrit, tend (with exceptions) to have more Steppe ancestry than expected on the basis of ANI-ASI mixture,” says the research in Science. // So the question remains why Brahmins have more of Steppe DNA? Are you going to answer it in this way that the Brahmin Women of that time were more fond of the Steppe Males? I hope not. It was not about attraction for the Steppe males, but it was due to forcefully taking the local women by the conquerors. Please note that later Arab/Iranian/Afghan, Uzbek Muslims also invaded India. But still there DNA is hardly present in India, as compared to the huge 17% Steppe DNA. Therefore, it's worth noting that this genetic footprint of Steppe is of an entirely more impressive order than the relatively inconsequential biological legacy of Islamic or European colonial invasions that often preoccupy the political imagination in India. Nonsense. R1 originates in Indian subcontinent, this has been proven. Steppes have Indian DNA because most Indians who immigrated were upper caste Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 This thread proves neither OIT or AIT, but certainly proves how much color coded words can one man make using the 2017 Tony Joseph article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 I'm too lazy and intellectually shallow to read through the pages after pages of arguements here. Are Indians Aryans or not? I am fair and have silky hair and a belligerent nose. Does that mean I am originally from Atlantis? sandeep 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 49 minutes ago, Mariyam said: I'm too lazy and intellectually shallow to read through the pages after pages of arguements here. Are Indians Aryans or not? I am fair and have silky hair and a belligerent nose. Does that mean I am originally from Atlantis? Photo please before we comment. Mariyam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 On 11/6/2019 at 4:07 PM, Muloghonto said: Evidence beats aryan invasion theory. Duh. Aryan steppe DNA is nonsense, since most geneticists agree that R clade originates in India what the * is the word "aryan" used to denote anyway? Scientifically speaking? It can be twisted to mean what you want it to mean. Just like 'White'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 37 minutes ago, sandeep said: what the * is the word "aryan" used to denote anyway? Scientifically speaking? It can be twisted to mean what you want it to mean. Just like 'White'. In this case, it is forming a theory and manufacture data to fit the theory. sandeep 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariyam Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 3 hours ago, sandeep said: what the * is the word "aryan" used to denote anyway? Scientifically speaking? It can be twisted to mean what you want it to mean. Just like 'White'. This clip can best answer your question (from 2:30- 5:10) Alam_dar, sandeep and Under_Score 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 continuity if civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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