Paying 70-80 billion dollars cash to Pak to vacate the ENTIRE PoK

[sandeep]

14 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

The idea is also to break the Sino-Pak axis. China has been using Pak as a catpaw against India. 

Do you visualize the real world as some child's board game?

 

China has been using Pak, because Pak is a willing accomplice.  Without China, Pak wouldn't have nukes.  Without China's assistance, they wouldn't have been able to barter their nukes for North Korean "no dong" missiles to paint and call them Ghauri.  You can't expect to buy your way and break alliances like that.  

[rangeelaraja]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

The point is that they deal in land w/o giving two hoots about what India thinks. Your opinion is based on what India is supposed to think and what you believe, which is not a concern for either Pak or China .... CPEC corridor runs through PoK for e.g. 

 

 

 

Please understand how economic diplomacy and foreign relations work.

 

Behaving one way and formal territorial change recognition are two completely different things

 

US says it recognizes One China policy at the same time arms Taiwan to the hilt and supports " peaceful settlement in agreement with wishes of Taiwanese people".    Has US ever officially said that it supports Taiwan independence  and does not recognize One China policy ?

 

Has US ever officially said it will safeguard Taiwan's independence and prevent integration into China ?

 

If China were to hypothetically integrate Taiwan into itself through negotiations...the US will not like it and try to dissuade Taiwan but can do nothing about it.

 

Likewise...if India were too formally negotiate PoK physical integration into itself through negotiations with PaKistan....China will not like it and dissuade Pakistan but can do nothing about it.

 

China is a thuggish country, deep down Pakistan know China for the selfish ruthless devil it is, we need to use our best diplomacy to buy out PoK.

 

[rangeelaraja]

13 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Do you visualize the real world as some child's board game?

 

China has been using Pak, because Pak is a willing accomplice.  Without China, Pak wouldn't have nukes.  Without China's assistance, they wouldn't have been able to barter their nukes for North Korean "no dong" missiles to paint and call them Ghauri.  You can't expect to buy your way and break alliances like that.  

 

 

And you are missing the biggest point that Pakistan has not been in a worse economic situation since its inception.

 

And although Pak-China nexus has existed for decades - Pak has not been mortgaged so badly to China the way it is now.

 

Also, Pak has not been deprived of American largesse like it has been now...

 

These are not circumstances that always existed.

 

What i am saying is easier said than done...but it is better option than where we have been for decades.

 

Please realize - Pak IS NOT CURRENTLY a WISHFUL CLIENT state to China. 

 

It realizes  deep down that US was a benevolent hegemon - and China is a ruthless exploiter that will milk it dry.

 

We are giving them a chance to come out of China's clutches.

 

 

 

 

[sandeep]

26 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

you are missing the biggest point that Pakistan has not been in a worse economic situation since its inception.

And you are missing the point that the zamindaars who control Pakistan are doing just fine economically - they do not get impacted when Pakistan's economy suffers.  They will use that suffering to beg for IMF loans, agree to pay high interest to China, whatever, its not their problem. 

 

That is why there is no solution that can be found for India-Pakistan peace, until Pakistan itself gets azaadi.

[zen]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Please understand how economic diplomacy and foreign relations work.

 

Behaving one way and formal territorial change recognition are two completely different things

 

US says it recognizes One China policy at the same time arms Taiwan to the hilt and supports " peaceful settlement in agreement with wishes of Taiwanese people".    Has US ever officially said that it supports Taiwan independence  and does not recognize One China policy ?

 

Has US ever officially said it will safeguard Taiwan's independence and prevent integration into China ?

 

If China were to hypothetically integrate Taiwan into itself through negotiations...the US will not like it and try to dissuade Taiwan but can do nothing about it.

 

Likewise...if India were too formally negotiate PoK physical integration into itself through negotiations with PaKistan....China will not like it and dissuade Pakistan but can do nothing about it.

 

China is a thuggish country, deep down Pakistan know China for the selfish ruthless devil it is, we need to use our best diplomacy to buy out PoK.

 

Those points are irrelevant. China may be thuggish but Pak runs on the hatred for Ind. And has preferred China to India. Also if the land is to be sold for the highest price, other things take the back seat. 

 

Btw, where is the $70-80B coming from?

[rangeelaraja]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Those points are irrelevant. China may be thuggish but Pak runs on the hatred for Ind. And has preferred China to India. Also if the land is to be sold for the highest price, other things take the back seat. 

 

Btw, where is the $70-80B coming from?

Where is the 70-80 billion dollars going to come from ? Ah.. what have you thought India is ? We are sitting pretty at 450 billion dollars in forex reserves that are growing at a decent clip. Also we don’t have to pay them all at once but in tranches as they fulfill all conditions of handing over POK to India sequentially under UN aegis. It is also to pay them for the any collateral they may have there.

 

You keep harping China China China  but don’t comprehend what I wrote above.  Pak China relationship is a master state - client state relationship. The master always likes to keep the client on a drip - always utterly dependent, always under the financial mercy. This character in the relationship is relatively NEW because now Pak is no longer in the US camp and US is not giving any material aid to Pak. 

 

China will suck out 10 times more from Pak than anything it gives. China gives nothing for free, no aid like US.

 

Pak now realizes this too, and the fears the long term consequences of this a lot - more than their deep states hatred for India - hope you can comprehend what I am saying here. Pak has seen what has happened to the Lankan port. Maldives and Malaysia too have kicked out Chinese investment that comes at sheer exploitative loans 

 

Paks are not as foolish as you think - they know they have no future under chinese slavery.  we have not made an offer yet, I am dead sure - if we do , Pak will give it a serious think. They get freedom for Chinese slavery and a financial windfall to get their economy on track even after the big guys filling their coffers. 

 

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

4 hours ago, sandeep said:

And you are missing the point that the zamindaars who control Pakistan are doing just fine economically - they do not get impacted when Pakistan's economy suffers.  They will use that suffering to beg for IMF loans, agree to pay high interest to China, whatever, its not their problem. 

 

That is why there is no solution that can be found for India-Pakistan peace, until Pakistan itself gets azaadi.

Ah FYI zamindaars are super wealthy for sure but they don’t control Pakistan.

 

Pak is controlled by the Fauj and it’s offshoots - including ISI. The fauj collects hafta from these zamindaars in return for other  benefits.

 

 

Fauj can make or break the zamindaars there. See what their  Fauj has done to a khandaani zameendar Nawaz sharif.  This was the same Nawaz sharif zameendar who was pulled into politics by none other than Zia ul Haq. And look what the same Fauj has done to him after Dawn leaks. 

 

This FAUJ has ripped off Pakistan  resources by creating the India bogey. Now this same Fauj can be bought and with a payoff that is not a big deal for India if we get totally possession of POK under UN aegis. 

 

The punjabi Sunni gernails are corrupt as hell and can be BOUGHT.

Edited November 2, 2019 by rangeelaraja

[zen]

11 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

Where is the 70-80 billion dollars going to come from ? Ah.. what have you thought India is ? We are sitting pretty at 450 billion dollars in forex reserves that are growing at a decent clip. Also we don’t have to pay them all at once but in tranches as they fulfill all conditions of handing over POK to India sequentially under UN aegis. It is also to pay them for the any collateral they may have there.

 

You keep harping China China China  but don’t comprehend what I wrote above.  Pak China relationship is a master state - client state relationship. The master always likes to keep the client on a drip - always utterly dependent, always under the financial mercy. This character in the relationship is relatively NEW because now Pak is no longer in the US camp and US is not giving any material aid to Pak. 

 

China will suck out 10 times more from Pak than anything it gives. China gives nothing for free, no aid like US.

 

Pak now realizes this too, and the fears the long term consequences of this a lot - more than their deep states hatred for India - hope you can comprehend what I am saying here. Pak has seen what has happened to the Lankan port. Maldives and Malaysia too have kicked out Chinese investment that comes at sheer exploitative loans 

 

Paks are not as foolish as you think - they know they have no future under chinese slavery.  we have not made an offer yet, I am dead sure - if we do , Pak will give it a serious think. They get freedom for Chinese slavery and a financial windfall to get their economy on track even after the big guys filling their coffers. 

If POK is sold, it becomes the territory of the purchaser. So the "sucking" point is not relevant. Similarly, the point on the Lankan port is not applicable, which was to be paid for by Lanka but couldn't. In a sale, China would be giving $$$, not Pak. 

 

You somehow came up with the $70-80B number. Also decided on the payment terms! 

[rangeelaraja]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

If POK is sold, it becomes the territory of the purchaser. So the "sucking" point is not relevant. Similarly, the point on the Lankan port is not applicable, which was to be paid for by Lanka but couldn't. In a sale, China would be giving $$$, not Pak. 

 

You somehow came up with the $70-80B number. Also decided on the payment terms! 

If china wanted to buy it they would have made an offer don’t you think ?  China doesn't buy, it snatches and exploits. See what they are doing in South China Sea. 

 

Doing business is one thing -China cannot buy Kashmir because India is a party to it. If it does there will be all out war with India.  Likewise US cannot formally declare Taiwan as independent country be cause China is party to it.  If it does China will not hesitate to go to war with US. 

 

70-80 billion dollars is tops. It is equivalent to 1 trillion dollars cash for the relative size of Indian economy. 

 

Also for a country like Pak that barely has 8 billion dollars FX - it is a windfall that they will find it hard to refuse 

[zen]

14 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

If china wanted to buy it they would have made an offer don’t you think ?  China doesn't buy, it snatches and exploits. See what they are doing in South China Sea. 

 

Doing business is one thing -China cannot buy Kashmir because India is a party to it. If it does there will be all out war with India.  Likewise US cannot formally declare Taiwan as independent country be cause China is party to it.  If it does China will not hesitate to go to war with US. 

 

70-80 billion dollars is tops. It is equivalent to 1 trillion dollars cash for the relative size of Indian economy. 

 

Also for a country like Pak that barely has 8 billion dollars FX - it is a windfall that they will find it hard to refuse 

Because it is not on sale, and China is already using the territory through CPEC

 

Once a property comes on market, there is always “interest” 

[rangeelaraja]

27 minutes ago, zen said:

Because it is not on sale, and China is already using the territory through CPEC

 

Once a property comes on market, there is always “interest” 

So according to your logic the whole world is using territory in Taiwan with so many global businesses invested there, especially Western and hence China will never get it back. 

 

India is the only party who can BUY PoK because of history. Any other party is out of question and it would be a direct WAR with India. It is just not any other piece of real estate somewhere in the world. It is a so called dispute ONLY between India and Pakistan 

Edited November 2, 2019 by rangeelaraja

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

Ah FYI zamindaars are super wealthy for sure but they don’t control Pakistan.

 

Pak is controlled by the Fauj and it’s offshoots - including ISI. The fauj collects hafta from these zamindaars in return for other  benefits.

Abey popat - the Fauj IS the zamindar now.  They are just wearing uniforms.  Do you know how much real estate in Pakistan is owned by "Defense Housing Societies"?  Do you know how much land is given as gifts to retiring officer ranks?  Its a f**king pyramid scheme - the higher rank you have in the Pak Army, more land you are allocated - I'm talking premium properties in urban areas, along with massive farming acreage in rural areas.  The Nawaz sharifs etc are one type of zamindar - the old school ones.  The real richie rich in Pakistan are retired jernails and kernails.  And they don't just control the land.  Executive jobs in Pakistan across all sectors, not just government, even private sector - are mostly filled with retired Phaujis. 

 

The Pak army has its tentacles wrapped around the entire Pakistan economy.  It started as a way to hide the real cost in the national budget, and also a way to generate extra revenue and funding for the army.  Now they are in all kinds of business - you want bread - fauji foundation.  You want baby food? Fauji foundation.  You want to hire transport trucks for logistics - i..e to move US army materiel from karachi port to Afghanistan?  Fauji foundation.  You want to donate the skin from the Eid animal sacrifice? Fauji foundation.   Pak army takes their "cut" from everything.  That's why it doesn't matter to them if the country's economy is in the shietter.  Besides, its not new, every few years they have an economic 'crisis', beg the IMF, and they get bailed out. 

[zen]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

So according to your logic the whole world is using territory in Taiwan with so many global businesses invested there, especially Western and hence China will never get it back. 

 

India is the only party who can BUY PoK because of history. Any other party is out of question and it would be a direct WAR with India. It is just not any other piece of real estate somewhere in the world. It is a so called dispute ONLY between India and Pakistan 

FYI, Taiwan is seen as “separate” from China. The two issues are not similar if you know the nuances. Drawing on random examples does not add much to the discussion 
 

You are making it sound as if countries are afraid of Ind! 
 

Anyways, GL with your idea. When are you sending an offer to Pak? The minute you tell Pak $70B, they will ask for $150B (or any such weird random number). This is assuming that you get your idea through the door! 

Edited November 2, 2019 by zen

[rangeelaraja]

45 minutes ago, zen said:

FYI, Taiwan is seen as “separate” from China. The two issues are not similar if you know the nuances. Drawing on random examples does not add much to the discussion 
 

You are making it sound as if countries are afraid of Ind! 
 

Anyways, GL with your idea. When are you sending an offer to Pak? The minute you tell Pak $70B, they will ask for $150B (or any such weird random number). This is assuming that you get your idea through the door! 

And you are making it sound as if China is some invincible creature. If they had such big balls they would have swallowed a puny little Taiwan by now. They are calculative,  not foolish. 

 

Examples are similar if you are able to comprehend that - a third party doing business in an area where sovereignty is disputed is one thing - a third party officially challenging sovereignty of one country that has history in a dispute is something totally different. 

 

This is why since 1947 NOT a single country in the world - Islamic or not - has said that Kashmir does not belong to India or NOT a single country including the US has told China that Taiwan is a separate  country. 

 

Be rest assured this is the ONLY solution, if you think a nuclear armed country is going to give away land for which it was destroyed itself for 72 years - FOR FREE, keep dreaming on...

 

The onus is on our govt to seize the moment and negotiate a deal with Pak when it is in such a vulnerable state economically. Bribe them big time, get UN involved to officiate and take back physical control. End of story 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by rangeelaraja

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

The onus is on our govt to seize the moment and negotiate a deal with Pak when it is in such a vulnerable state economically. Bribe them big time, get UN involved to officiate and take back physical control. End of story 

 

How do I submit your name for Nobel Prize?  Please send me your full name, address and Bank account number.  There's a Nigerian Prince who wants to reward you for your brilliance.

[rangeelaraja]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

How do I submit your name for Nobel Prize?  Please send me your full name, address and Bank account number.  There's a Nigerian Prince who wants to reward you for your brilliance.

You would do well to stop pretense about knowing Pak well, when clearly you know little. Go pick up some book from amazon and educate yourself. Be the beneficiary of your charitable mood. 

[Khalpat]

Country is not a physical entity or God made thing. It's a man made boundary which remains United by a common set of emotion. For Pakistan, the only common set of emotion keeping them United is the hatred / jealousy towards India. The day they will negotiate with us or be in peace with us, the country will cease to exist. Therefore this offer for Pakistani army accepting would be like killing the Goose that Gives them Golden Egg. They won't accept.

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

You would do well to stop pretense about knowing Pak well, when clearly you know little. Go pick up some book from amazon and educate yourself. Be the beneficiary of your charitable mood. 

When's the party?  Did you get the letter from Nobel Prize committee yet?

[rangeelaraja]

23 minutes ago, Khalpat said:

Country is not a physical entity or God made thing. It's a man made boundary which remains United by a common set of emotion. For Pakistan, the only common set of emotion keeping them United is the hatred / jealousy towards India. The day they will negotiate with us or be in peace with us, the country will cease to exist. Therefore this offer for Pakistani army accepting would be like killing the Goose that Gives them Golden Egg. They won't accept.

 

Fundamental mistake my friend. There is no genuine hatred of India from 99 % of the common awam of Pak. Hatred of India is SOLD - by the powers that be in Pak to enrich themselves. Threat of India is sold  by the  Pak army to  hog a lions share of the country's resources.

Now if the sole objective of their elite and military brass is to enrich themselves - let's help them with that and solve this 7 decade plus deadlock.

 

Our problem is that we have forgotten to act on the principals of the greatest political minds that have been born in our country.

 

One of the greatest of them - Chanakya - spoke about - 4 steps of achieving a political objective against an adversary in the below sequence.

 

Saam - We have seen that this has not yielded results with Pak and never will.

Daam - ?????????

Dand - This has not changed their behavior either.

Bhed - We have done this via RAW time and again but it has not resulted in the ultimate results.

 

We missed a crucial step in the ladder - giving them a DAAM and buying them off.

 

Anyone of has read about tales of Chanakya - please tell me how he would have resolved Kashmir in India's favor decisively

 

 

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

7 minutes ago, sandeep said:

When's the party?  Did you get the letter from Nobel Prize committee yet?

Give me your address, ill have this shipped to you.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Reimagining-Pakistan-Transforming-Dysfunctional-Nuclear-ebook/dp/B079SPK4VQ

 

You need to divorce your presumption that you very knowledgable and marry the reality that you may be dud   - and get some education.