NZ AT 11 vs SA AT 11 (Tests)

[Sandeep99]

Are you kidding me?  South Africa all time eleven will decimate New Zealand to million pieces. Joke of a thread. 

[Gollum]

3 hours ago, zen said:

I picked for sporting conditions w/ 5 from each team, along with Bumrah or Boult for 11th spot .... That you ignored so many Kiwi players based on "certain" conditions only highlights the limitations of Ind players, which is why I rate Ind, Pak and Eng as mostly home conditions teams

 

We are not taking about which country has a larger pool of cricketers but its best 11, which once chosen plays a series. So if you are picking 3 spinners, you are stuck with that in SENA too. If you have assumed 3 spinners conditions in SC, then it would be a 3-4 pacer condition in SENA  .... To avoid such scenarios, the assumption is sporting conditions (in this hypothetical and fair world of AT teams) 

 

Also note that some of the NZ players can be more effective than Indian players. For e.g. Hadlee + Bond can = our entire pace attack. Then it can add Boult-Vettori,  who is used to bowling in various conditions, as well. While Indian spinners are by and large ineffective unless they can access certain conditions.  

 

 

Sporting conditions in India are different compared to counterparts in Eng, RSA, Aus etc. Can't standardize nature of soil, weather conditions, abrasiveness of outfield etc...just like how despite court homegnization in tennis since 2002, all HCs play differently (very soon in Indian Wells and Miami you will see how despite same court manufacturer one is quicker and high bouncing while the other is slower and low bouncing....totally counter-intuituive....answer is simple and it has got to do with geography and atmsphere). Sporting cricket pitch can be high bouncing in Aus, low bouncing in Ind...look at Umesh's career and you will see what difference it makes. Then what standardized ball will you use? So many factors. 

 

If Ind/Pak/Eng players are limited ('home conditions'...Eng not really tbh), NZ players are 10x worse. NZ greats except Hadlee and a couple more have only made jokes out of themselves outside their comfort zones. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Gollum

[zen]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Sporting conditions in India are different compared to counterparts in Eng, RSA, Aus etc. Can't standardize nature of soil, weather conditions, abrasiveness of outfield etc...just like how despite court homegnization in tennis since 2002, all HCs play differently. Sporting can be high bouncing in Aus, low bouncing in Ind...look at Umesh's career and you will see what difference it makes. then what standardized ball will you use? So many factors. 

 

If Ind/Pak/Eng players are limited, NZ players are 10x worse. NZ greats except Hadlee and a couple more have only made jokes out of themselves outside their comfort zones. 

Idea is to pick 11 players. Not a laundry list .... Pick your 11 for sporting conditions in this hypothetical scenario .... no AT11 is ever going to play in the real world .... if it makes it easy, assume no cricket in India, where it is not even exciting to watch test cricket .... And teams like NZ punch above their weights so that makes cricket more exciting 

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Idea is to pick 11 players. Not a laundry list .... Pick your 11 for sporting conditions in this hypothetical scenario .... no AT11 is ever going to play  in the real world .... if it makes it easy,

2 teams is laundry list? 

Better idea, pick a squad of 16 and then play 11 depending on conditions. A more sensible way to approach, don't you think?

1 minute ago, zen said:

assume no cricket in India, where it is not even exciting to watch test cricket .... And teams like NZ punch above their weights so that makes cricket more exciting 

You can only speak for yourself here. Personal opinions don't mean facts. I find cricket in India exciting and NZ very boring.

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Gollum said:

2 teams is laundry list? 

Better idea, pick a squad of 16 and then play 11 depending on conditions. A more sensible way to approach, don't you think?

You can only speak for yourself here. Personal opinions don't mean facts. I find cricket in India exciting and NZ very boring.

How many places do you have 3 spinners playing  .... Usually you settle for 3+1 kind of conditions. Sporting, which helps both batsmen and bowlers, including spinners such as Warne and Murali (not those looking to get purchase on the rough. I don’t even know if these can be counted as good bowlers. Similar to why folks don’t like bottlecaps. And no excessive green in pitch as well). When you pick for sporting conditions, 11 should suffice

 

On turners, even NZ can play spinners such as Vettori, Patel, Sodhi, etc.. Williamson can spin too iirc. You do not want these guys to decide game on toss. I understand that in trying to squeeze in Ind players you have created such assumptions. But it should be sporting conditions! I do not care about either squeezing in Ind or NZ players (as you saw I selected players equally from both teams)

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[Adamant]

Is this even a question. 

South african atg x1 is three levels above nz atg x1. 

South african atg players:

Kallis

Ab devilliers

Kallis

G pollock

S Pollock

Steyn

Barry 

Allan donald

 

Nz atg players:

Hadlee

Williamson. 

[Gollum]

17 minutes ago, zen said:

How many places do you have 3 spinners playing  .... Usually you settle for 3+1 kind of conditions.

Or 3+2, or 2.5+2 

17 minutes ago, zen said:

Sporting, which helps both batsmen and bowlers, including spinners such as Warne and Murali (not those looking to get purchase on the rough. I don’t even know if these can be counted as good bowlers. Similar to why folks don’t like bottlecaps. And no excessive green in pitch as well). When you pick for sporting conditions, 11 should suffice

I don't like bottlecaps because it is cheating, benefitting only one side. Rough, excessive green...both sides have to face the music...unlike cheating. 

17 minutes ago, zen said:

On turners, even NZ can play spinners such as Vettori, Patel, Sodhi, etc.. Williamson can spin too iirc. You do not want these guys to decide game on toss. I understand that in trying to squeeze in Ind players you have created such assumptions. But it should be sporting conditions! I do not care about either squeezing in Ind or NZ players (as you saw I selected players equally from both teams)

Ok baba, I concede defeat. Let me make it official

[zen]

I don’t know if ppl remember, there was this AR called Chris Harris (hope I got the name right), who used to bowl spin  .... In 96WC, he hit 130 odd vs Aus, who won the game (I think Mark Waugh hit a 100 too) 

[kohli]

6 hours ago, zen said:

If Hadlee were an Indian, he could have been seen as our greatest cricketer .... Gave a shot at a combined 11,  which can take a lot of Kiwis: 

 

Gavaskar 

Sehwag 

Williamson 

Tendulkar 

Crowe (c) 

Kohli 

Baz 

Hadlee 

Bond

Boult or Bumrah 

Chandra or Gupte 

 

 

 

In which world martin crowe is better than dravid.bumrah is equal to bond now.

[zen]

1 hour ago, kohli said:

In which world martin crowe is better than dravid.bumrah is equal to bond now.

I don’t know what you know about Crowe but he was among the top tier batsmen of his time

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/26164719/best-test-batsman-1985-1991

People who have seen Crowe bat and heard about his performance vs. WI of his time, widely considered to be the AT greatest side, will pick Crowe. Crowe also brings value as the captain 
 

One of the reasons, I write for teams like NZ is that it has some great cricketers but not enough fan following relatively to toot their horn .... For some maybe even a Rayudu is greater than a great batsman like Crowe 

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[nevada]

9 hours ago, zen said:

Note that this is not a world AT11 but SA's. People even consider players who have not even played in or against India .... the selection would also depend upon the variety needed/desired in a 11 

 

PS Rabada has a fantastic SR to compliment bowlers like Steyn and Donald:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team South Africa

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100  and bowling average less than or equal to 26

Ordered by bowling strike rate (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
K Rabada	2015-2020	40	72	7579	4319	179	7/112	13/144	24.12	3.41	42.3	7	3
DW Steyn	2004-2019	86	159	17426	9507	403	7/51	11/60	23.59	3.27	43.2	24	5
AA Donald	1992-2002	69	123	14906	7113	316	7/84	12/139	22.50	2.86	47.1	19	2
VD Philander	2011-2020	60	113	10935	4828	219	6/21	10/102	22.04	2.64	49.9	13	2
PM Pollock	1961-1970	28	52	6522	2806	116	6/38	10/87	24.18	2.58	56.2	9	1
SM Pollock	1995-2008	100	186	22964	9238	389	7/87	10/147	23.74	2.41	59.0	15	1
NAT Adcock	1953-1962	26	46	6391	2195	104	6/43	8/87	21.10	2.06	61.4	5	0

Fair enough, the point being best from SA, and not necessarily ATG. I appreciate good cricket even from the opposition and respect the performances of McGrath, Hadlee, Hoggard, Kasprowicz, etc who made Indian batsmen struggle in India. I was expecting something similar from Rabada in the recent series and was very disappointed. 

[kohli]

4 hours ago, zen said:

I don’t know what you know about Crowe but he was among the top tier batsmen of his time

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/26164719/best-test-batsman-1985-1991

People who have seen Crowe bat and heard about his performance vs. WI of his time, widely considered to be the AT greatest side, will pick Crowe. Crowe also brings value as the captain 
 

One of the reasons, I write for teams like NZ is that it has some great cricketers but not enough fan following relatively to toot their horn .... For some maybe even a Rayudu is greater than a great batsman like Crowe 

Crowe is not a top tier batsman. He is same leval of azhar or vvs . His away avg is 42. Avg 16 in india, 22 in South Africa, 29 in sri lanka & 30 in West Indies. Dravid is 10 times better than him.

[kohli]

4 hours ago, zen said:

I don’t know what you know about Crowe but he was among the top tier batsmen of his time

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/26164719/best-test-batsman-1985-1991

People who have seen Crowe bat and heard about his performance vs. WI of his time, widely considered to be the AT greatest side, will pick Crowe. Crowe also brings value as the captain 
 

One of the reasons, I write for teams like NZ is that it has some great cricketers but not enough fan following relatively to toot their horn .... For some maybe even a Rayudu is greater than a great batsman like Crowe 

Crowe is not a top tier batsman. He is same leval of azhar or vvs . His away avg is 42. Avg 16 in india, 22 in South Africa, 29 in sri lanka & 30 in West Indies. Dravid is 10 times better than him.

[kohli]

4 hours ago, zen said:

I don’t know what you know about Crowe but he was among the top tier batsmen of his time

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/26164719/best-test-batsman-1985-1991

People who have seen Crowe bat and heard about his performance vs. WI of his time, widely considered to be the AT greatest side, will pick Crowe. Crowe also brings value as the captain 
 

One of the reasons, I write for teams like NZ is that it has some great cricketers but not enough fan following relatively to toot their horn .... For some maybe even a Rayudu is greater than a great batsman like Crowe 

Nobody can consider crowe is atg with grand total of 5000 test run 

Edited February 21, 2020 by kohli

[kohli]

4 hours ago, zen said:

I don’t know what you know about Crowe but he was among the top tier batsmen of his time

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/26164719/best-test-batsman-1985-1991

People who have seen Crowe bat and heard about his performance vs. WI of his time, widely considered to be the AT greatest side, will pick Crowe. Crowe also brings value as the captain 
 

One of the reasons, I write for teams like NZ is that it has some great cricketers but not enough fan following relatively to toot their horn .... For some maybe even a Rayudu is greater than a great batsman like Crowe 

Even pujara is better test batsman 

Edited February 21, 2020 by kohli

[zen]

5 hours ago, kohli said:

Nobody can consider crowe is atg with grand total of 5000 test run 

I would recommend acquainting yourself with facts - for e.g. Grahame Pollock and George Headley have 2-3k runs but are also greats. 
 

Number of runs are not everything. Bradman, Richards, Gavaskar, Chappell, etc., have less runs than Dravid but .... 
 

 

 

[zen]

7 hours ago, nevada said:

Fair enough, the point being best from SA, and not necessarily ATG. I appreciate good cricket even from the opposition and respect the performances of McGrath, Hadlee, Hoggard, Kasprowicz, etc who made Indian batsmen struggle in India. I was expecting something similar from Rabada in the recent series and was very disappointed. 

Yeah, it is exciting to see pace bowlers do well. Talking about good spells in India, the spell by Srinath against SA at A’bad (1996) was the first time I saw an Ind pace bowler bowl like that. It is still fresh in my memory! 

[Sooda]

On 2/20/2020 at 3:46 PM, zen said:

WI and Aus AT Test 11s are considered to be the top 2 in general. NZ and SA will probably contest for the 3rd place. Which of the two teams below hold the edge in a 6 test match series (3 in SA and 3 in NZ) w/ all players at their best: 

 

NZ AT 11

 

Turner

Fleming

Williamson

Crowe (c)

Taylor 

Jones

McCullum 

Hadlee

Vettori

Bond

Boult

 

SA AT 11

 

Smith (c)

B Richards

Kallis

G Pollock 

Cullinan 

ABDV

De Kock 

S Pollock (or Tahir if a spinner is needed) 

Steyn

Donald

Rabada 

 

Amla in though he is not played in the middle order much, for Cullinan. Hugh tayfield in as well for sure.

 

And Fleming didnt open much, so maybe John Wright, or Bert Sutcliffe. Great captain, but given Crowe was too I dont know if Fleming gets in the side. Id find a place for Cairns too perhaps instead of Andrew Jones, given Hadlee and Vettori bat a bit

 

SA bowling and batting is just much better!

 

And as Jimmy Cliff says I think England would definitely be third place a lot of their old timers ( Hobbs, Sutcliffe , Barrington, etc)  are ATG's, though yes it is hard to judge now -and  hard to say how quick Truman and Larwood are in modern terms so maybe the pace attack would be reliant on conditions that aid swing bowling but they would be threat in most conditions and a great spin attack in Laker/Underwood

Edited February 21, 2020 by Sooda

[zen]

51 minutes ago, Sooda said:

I think England would definitely be third place some of their old timers ( Hobbs, Sutcliffe etc)  are ATG's, though yes it is hard to judge now -and  hard to say how quick Truman and Larwood are in modern terms so maybe the pace attack would be reliant on conditions that aid swing bowling but they would be threat in most conditions and a great spin attack in Laker/Underwood

If you have a team full of people from the pre-70s period, it shows the quality has not been maintained. I like to see a few modern/current players in the mix as well .... I would place Eng in the Ind-Pak bracket. I am not sure that it can beat SA's 11. While Hadlee-Bond can be a little too hot to handle for it 

 

Note that ECB's team (poll) does not have many players from that era -> ECB Eng 11

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by zen

[zen]

Long time ago, cricinfo had done various 11s:

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/magazine/alltime_composite.html 

 

^ you may not agree with many of the picks