Escalation at India-China border

[sandeep]

9 hours ago, Vilander said:

Usual judgement strawmen tripe from you, does not surprise me. . I have not claimed 1, china has not occupied land 2, not claimed india will get land back.

Never said *you* claimed it, so how is it a "strawman"?  All I did was make a comparison of those silly claims, to your silly claim that winter means "China will have to pack its bags and leave."

 

 And I will repeat - that is a baseless silly claim.  

 

9 hours ago, Vilander said:

What is this obvious tactical advantage ?

If you do not know the specifics, don't make ignorant claims.

[Autonomous]

On 7/2/2020 at 9:49 PM, sandeep said:

All this "trade route" nonsense is for folks who don't have an adequate grasp on geography or logistics.  The CPEC 'highway' is frequently disrupted by avalanches, and is by no-means all-weather.  It simply cannot scale up in logistical volume to be considered a viable "trade route".  

 

Gwadar is considered to be this tactical masterstroke - the place barely has enough drinking water supply for a few hundred residents.  And the average daily cargo weight that comes into Gwadar and reaches China, can be measured in grams, not even kilograms.  

 

 

With china you never know, these guys are beasts at developing infrastructure. 

[sandeep]

13 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

With china you never know, these guys are beasts at developing infrastructure. 

Its one thing to develop "infrastructure".  But how will they create demand for goods? Demand for material in the Chinese mainland is already being taken care of with well-established supply-chain of ships, ports serving Eastern China.  The barren mountains and takla makan desert of Western China is barely populated.  The CPEC 'highway' is a road to nowhere. Its primary, and only purpose, is to create export market in the yet another 'stan'.  China has already converted the Central Asian 'stans' into poor, dependent client states, where almost everything is made in China.  The goods flowing in the CPEC 'corridor' will come from China into Pakistan, while taking raw material from Pak.  This is not a secret, the Chinese cleraly spelled it out - they want to build out industries in Xinjiang and Tibet - and they are targeting Pakistani lifelines - labor intensive textiles, sporting goods etc.

 

The only thing Gwadar is good for, is a strategic naval base.  That's about it.

[Autonomous]

32 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Its one thing to develop "infrastructure".  But how will they create demand for goods? Demand for material in the Chinese mainland is already being taken care of with well-established supply-chain of ships, ports serving Eastern China.  The barren mountains and takla makan desert of Western China is barely populated.  The CPEC 'highway' is a road to nowhere. Its primary, and only purpose, is to create export market in the yet another 'stan'.  China has already converted the Central Asian 'stans' into poor, dependent client states, where almost everything is made in China.  The goods flowing in the CPEC 'corridor' will come from China into Pakistan, while taking raw material from Pak.  This is not a secret, the Chinese cleraly spelled it out - they want to build out industries in Xinjiang and Tibet - and they are targeting Pakistani lifelines - labor intensive textiles, sporting goods etc.

 

The only thing Gwadar is good for, is a strategic naval base.  That's about it.

But look at the other side of it:

 

-Our locals will get tourism revenue from international and domestic tourism via improved infrastructure (e35 expressway, babusar road etc have increased tourism in last 7 years thanks to china developed infrastructure)

 

-The scope of this thing is not just limited to KKH, it also included development of motorways from north all the way till karachi as well as rail access (improvement of main-line 1). Today, we are mostly depedent upon air travel from karachi to lahore because n5 is ****

 

-China has given access to locked areas or regions where travel was difficult with development of tunnels for instance lowari tunnel in chitral region kpk and there are plans to construct highway from chitral to gilgit which will provide another alternative to KKH. All these projects will also reduce fuel bill

 

-Improved connectivity and lifestyle in the north/south regions. Thanks to infrastructure, we have now business or market reach as well as connectivity in areas such as swat, dir, gilgit side etc. 

 

What i'm saying is, chinese investment brings positive value to our lives. Recently our family friends visited us all the way from karachi by road which one could have never imagined. It also improves transit from port city, its not just about gwadar. 

[Adi_91]

49 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

But look at the other side of it:

 

-Our locals will get tourism revenue from international and domestic tourism via improved infrastructure (e35 expressway, babusar road etc have increased tourism in last 7 years thanks to china developed infrastructure)

 

-The scope of this thing is not just limited to KKH, it also included development of motorways from north all the way till karachi as well as rail access (improvement of main-line 1). Today, we are mostly depedent upon air travel from karachi to lahore because n5 is ****

 

-China has given access to locked areas or regions where travel was difficult with development of tunnels for instance lowari tunnel in chitral region kpk and there are plans to construct highway from chitral to gilgit which will provide another alternative to KKH. All these projects will also reduce fuel bill

 

-Improved connectivity and lifestyle in the north/south regions. Thanks to infrastructure, we have now business or market reach as well as connectivity in areas such as swat, dir, gilgit side etc. 

 

What i'm saying is, chinese investment brings positive value to our lives. Recently our family friends visited us all the way from karachi by road which one could have never imagined. It also improves transit from port city, its not just about gwadar. 

Yeah, but trouble will begin when Pakistan can’t repay for what they are getting and may have to give up territory for failing to repay.

 

In the long term, this has serious implications. No country can progress with debt on its head. I hope better sense prevails before it’s too late.

[Autonomous]

12 minutes ago, Adi_91 said:

Yeah, but trouble will begin when Pakistan can’t repay for what they are getting and may have to give up territory for failing to repay.

 

In the long term, this has serious implications. No country can progress with debt on its head. I hope better sense prevails before it’s too late.

I don't think this is going to happen, in theory maybe yes. 

[zen]

Proactive, decisive  and united China vs. Reactive, indecisive and divided India .... need to be at the top of our game

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

Our locals will get tourism revenue from international and domestic tourism via improved infrastructure (e35 expressway, babusar road etc have increased tourism in last 7 years thanks to china developed infrastructure)

Please quote hard data, not wishy washy nonsense.  And no, hired youtubers don't count as 'tourists'.  

 

When Gwadar can hardly provide drinking water for a few hundred residents, you can't be making foolish claims about tourism.

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

The scope of this thing is not just limited to KKH, it also included development of motorways from north all the way till karachi as well as rail access (improvement of main-line 1). Today, we are mostly depedent upon air travel from karachi to lahore because n5 is ****

What you are either intentionally hiding, or are actually ignorant of, is the fact that Pakistan is paying a premium price for those 'motorways'.  'No-bid' contracts for chinese companies, paid for with chinese loans that charge commercial interest rates - its a double rip-off whammy.  

 

China spent last 20 years building roads internally, and now has a ton of companies and machines lying idle.  By bribing and purchasing Pakistani phauji jernails with a few cents, they are making Pakistani "awaam" pay through the nose for Chinese loans, to be used to hire chinese companies that would otherwise go bust.  That's what the BRI (and CPEC) is, in a nutshell.  A giant scheme to put surplus Chinese capital, machinery and labor to work, and making other countries pay for it.  

 

 

[Autonomous]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Please quote hard data, not wishy washy nonsense.  And no, hired youtubers don't count as 'tourists'.  

 

When Gwadar can hardly provide drinking water for a few hundred residents, you can't be making foolish claims about tourism.

What you are either intentionally hiding, or are actually ignorant of, is the fact that Pakistan is paying a premium price for those 'motorways'.  'No-bid' contracts for chinese companies, paid for with chinese loans that charge commercial interest rates - its a double rip-off whammy.  

 

China spent last 20 years building roads internally, and now has a ton of companies and machines lying idle.  By bribing and purchasing Pakistani phauji jernails with a few cents, they are making Pakistani "awaam" pay through the nose for Chinese loans, to be used to hire chinese companies that would otherwise go bust.  That's what the BRI (and CPEC) is, in a nutshell.  A giant scheme to put surplus Chinese capital, machinery and labor to work, and making other countries pay for it.  

 

 

Okay.

 

I had data on tourism somewhere will find that for you because domestic tourism also increased alot after terror situation was diminished. 

 

Why don't you in meanwhile come up with some data explaining for the loans taken for developing infrastructure (from china) as part of pakistan's total debt structure as well as some figures over cost of capital. 

[G_B_]

@Autonomous

 

What happens to Gwader (the city) when the Chinese adopt electric cars? Sure its about 30 years off. But the entire reason for hyping up Gwadar was that it was a source to import oil from gulf countries.

 

From what i can see gulf oil exports to china dont come via Gwadar anyways. 

 

So from the chinese way of thinking Gwadar would be a back up incase thd American navy chokes them off.

 

Its just that are asking pakistan to pay for their back up.

 

 

[Autonomous]

39 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

@Autonomous

 

What happens to Gwader (the city) when the Chinese adopt electric cars? Sure its about 30 years off. But the entire reason for hyping up Gwadar was that it was a source to import oil from gulf countries.

 

From what i can see gulf oil exports to china dont come via Gwadar anyways. 

 

So from the chinese way of thinking Gwadar would be a back up incase thd American navy chokes them off.

 

Its just that are asking pakistan to pay for their back up.

 

 

Read the last lines of my post above, its not about gwadar itself. 

 

Thanks. 

[Vilander]

9 hours ago, sandeep said:

Never said *you* claimed it, so how is it a "strawman"?  All I did was make a comparison of those silly claims, to your silly claim that winter means "China will have to pack its bags and leave."

 

 And I will repeat - that is a baseless silly claim.  

 

If you do not know the specifics, don't make ignorant claims.

 you are the one who is ignorant here.  I have no interest in educating you. 

[Vilander]

21 hours ago, sandeep said:

even then, it is still unlikely that they are simply going to give up such an obviously tactical advantage.  

So you were bullshiting when you claimed you knew of a tactical advantage lol.  You get angry if I ask you what it is. Or may be you don't know. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Vilander

[Vilander]

LAC is not international boundary.  There is no adverse possession in international disputes.  Only Change on ground is IA patrols can't reach finger 8, Chinese patrolls have permanent structures up-to west of finger 4. After Midi threw the gauntlet if xi does not attack before winter its loss of face for him. Just chill it's imminent from them, IA IN and IAF I bet are ready.heavy casualties will be replicated again but expecting to grab land back from 15 trillion economy is silly. 

[G_B_]

If i am being up front the average chinese is focused on hong kong.

 

I dont think india registers too highly in the Chinese psyche. The chinese students i talked to did not even know there was a war with india (or vietnam). They did not care too much.

 

Their textbooks are more focused on how hong kong was looted and how taiwan is theirs.

 

You are right in saying that the Chinese will have to make a move in August if at all before things reset in April next year. But i doubt Xi worries about a loss of face. 

 

 

[Vilander]

2 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

If i am being up front the average chinese is focused on hong kong.

 

I dont think india registers too highly in the Chinese psyche. The chinese students i talked to did not even know there was a war with india (or vietnam). They did not care too much.

 

Their textbooks are more focused on how hong kong was looted and how taiwan is theirs.

 

You are right in saying that the Chinese will have to make a move in August if at all before things reset in April next year. But i doubt Xi worries about a loss of face. 

 

 

Chinese don't rate or care about India it's US they measure themselves against.  

 

Chinese students pfft,  as much as I dislike educating here, I like how many here who know less but talk big suits them well basically.. But do think bigger like Zhongnanhai, a ruler has his pressures. XI needs to put belligerent troublemaker India in its place. Attack will come, India does not need to initiate it, they need to prep.

[Norman]

Chinese troops pull back 2 KM from site of Galwan Valley clashes 

 

 

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/chinese-troops-pull-back-2-km-from-site-of-galwan-valley-clashes-says-govt-official/article31999179.ece

 

[Norman]

Modi's visit showing its effects. 

[sandeep]

20 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Okay.

 

I had data on tourism somewhere will find that for you because domestic tourism also increased alot after terror situation was diminished. 

 

Exactly. Once the "Zarb-e-azb" stuff reduced the violence, domestic tourism was expected to rebound a bit on its own.  Does the data prove that the only way to get that small increase in "domestic tourism", required taking Chinese loans at excessively high interest rates, and giving Chinese companies 50 year tax holidays?  

 

The thing about data is, you have to situate it in the correct context.  Else you will end up will completely wrong conclusions, and believe that the "data" took you there.

 

 

[sandeep]

16 hours ago, Vilander said:

So you were bullshiting when you claimed you knew of a tactical advantage lol.  You get angry if I ask you what it is. Or may be you don't know. 

I'm not "angry".  Infantile childish taunts do not make me angry.  If you insist, I can spell things out for you and spoon-feed you.

 

The PLA has consolidated its hold on F4 beachhead, as well as the heights along the ridgeline looking down towards F3.  Holding these enables the PLA to dictate terms and project its power over, arguably the entirety of Pangong Tso.  It gives them an excellent basis for asserting their on-paper claim up to F2, and if they wish to, provides an almost perfect staging to throw the Indian army out up to F2 and maybe even beyond.  

 

There is a reason why the Indian army, rudely slapped and woken out of its Kumbhakaran slumber, is scrambling and trying to push back.  They understand the tactical and strategic significance of F4.  And the similar importance of the PP14 area.  

 

Making childish claims that "China will be leave on their own, because 'winter'," is what I called you out on.  And notably, you are yet to defend that assertion of yours, and are choosing instead to trade personal attacks on tangents.  Gee I wonder why.