The seasonal "Sachin was not that great" thread.

[zen]

Just now, sandeep said:

Here are some elementary non-cherrypicked stats for you.

 

For Tendulkar and Kallis - from year 2 or 3 of their respective careers to year 14.  i.e. 12 years.  Against major test playing countries excluding Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, and Ind/SA respectively.  

 

Sachin Tendulkar:   averages 59.5 in 75 test matches from 1991 to 2003.

Kallis  averages 51.75 from 108 test matches from 1997 to 2009.

 

An 8 run differential.  

 

Now of course Kallis is a bonafide great, even without throwing in his bowling.  Nothing wrong in that.  But in their best years, Tendy was and is comfortable a much better batsman than Kallis.  And no genuine cricket fan - "neutral" or otherwise, would make ridiculous claims to the contrary.  If you were given the option of picking a batsman on purely batting - and given the choice of Tendulkar or Kallis at their respective 'peaks' as batsmen, the choice is not close.

 

But sure, for "timepass" and trolling purposes, cumulative stats with inherently flawed comparison that fail to take into account eras, opponent strengths, team strength, conditions, stage of career, etc - all sorts of statistical 'advantages' can be fabricated.  

 

I have no issue if you cherry pick stats yourself but to call the non cherry picked is "delusions of grandeur"

 

And that too when it is shown that Tendulkar needs the score to read 100 or more to be more effective 

 

 

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

I have no issue if you cherry pick stats yourself but to call the non cherry picked is "delusions of grandeur"

 

And that too when it is shown that Tendulkar needs the score to read 100 or more to be more effective 

 

 

Taste of your own medicine didn't agree with you I see!

[zen]

35 minutes ago, Serpico said:

You make some good points now and then, but why twist the facts to be contrarian every time? Its hard to convince people when you posts with so little research. I mean Lara and Kallis aren't ancient batsmen, we all saw them play and we know that they played in middle order for majority of their careers. 

 

Brian Lara played at no.4 most of his career.. he moved from 3 to 4 at the age of 27 not because his reflexes slowed down but because he is failing repeatedly at no. 3. In his second tour to australia, he failed to cross single digit for 4 consecutive innings and repeatedly got out to mcgrath so he pushed Chanderpaul to 3 and moved to 4 and continued playing there till the end of his career. Was he coward for doing it? Or was it smart decision for Windies to protect their best batter? After moving to 4, he made a century at WACA in last test of the series and windies won the match. Kallis also moved to no. 4 at the age of 26, just four years after his debut. Basically as soon as they became the best batsmen in their teams, they changed their batting position from no3 to no.4.

 

Sobers played at no.5 and no.6 in more innings than he played at no.3 (just 17 innings), was he a coward as well? Even King Viv played for majority of his career (50%+) at no.4 and no.5. Only in Australia, premier batsmen are sent at no.3 and even they changed this with smith as soon as they found Labuschagne. I can guarantee that once smith retires, Labu will move to 4 as well

 

When World XI played against Australia for Tsunami relief, Dravid, Lara and Kallis were all there in the same team.. yet they sent "meek" dravid at 3 and sent brave and dashing Lara at 4, I wonder why

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/icc-world-xi-tour-of-australia-2005-06-208890/australia-vs-icc-world-xi-only-test-221840/full-scorecard

 

 

You need to "read" properly, buddy  .... the post you quoted:

 

"Again a fallacy  .... Best batsman for many teams have batted in the top order (and have good record batting there) - Bradman, Sobers, Richards, Lara, Ponting, Kallis and so on .... Many have moved into the MO once their reflex slowed down relatively"

 

a) best batsmen have batted in the top order and have a good batting record there 

 

• Bradman, we know his avg
• Sobers, has played 25 innings in the top order (#1-3), avgs 59 
• Lara, has played 68 innings in the top order, avg 60
• Richards, has played 63 innings in the top order, avg 62
• and so on 

 

b) "Many" does not mean all so I do not see the point of your seeking for exceptions/random instances, and when the overall point is about top batsmen playing in the top order and doing well 

 

 

Take Tendulkar, who has played 200 tests but only 1 inning in the top order (avg 15) .... on top of that he only avgs roughly 43 (a huge sample size of 178 innings) when the score is 100 or less .... so it does not matter what one batsman did or did not in a particular instance, collectively over their careers, all of them have done well in both the top and middle order relatively 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[zen]

18 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Taste of your own medicine didn't agree with you I see!

 

Over their careers, Kallis avgs 57 in MO to Tendulkar's 51 .... and we all know that a certain someone needs the score to be 100 or more to be more effective 

 

PS for your reference or may be frame it in your bedroom

 

 

 

Tendulkar avgs roughly 60 .... but for that the poor chap needs the score to read 100 or more when he walks in 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Over their careers, Kallis avgs 57 in MO to Tendulkar's 51 .... and we all know that a certain someone needs the score to be 100 or more to be more effective 

 

 

Against common opponents in  the 90s of stronger bowling, 70+ batting average for Tendy and 38 for fairweather freeloader Kallis. No wonder Bradman was a gushing fan

 

 

Edit: No matter how many times you copy paste, math doesn't change.  

 

70 > 38.

Edited January 4, 2021 by sandeep

[zen]

14 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Against common opponents in  the 90s of stronger bowling, 70+ batting average for Tendy and 38 for fairweather freeloader Kallis. No wonder Bradman was a gushing fan

 

Edit: No matter how many times you copy paste, math doesn't change.  

 

70 > 38.

 

In the 90s, Tendulkar has not necessarily scored empathetically v stronger bowling attacks 

 

v Pak w/ either Wasim or Waqar bowling, avg 30 

v SA w/ Donald, avg 32

v Aus w/ McGrath, avg 40 

 

So again that takes the shine of the 90s too .... and more smell from the coffee!

 

Btw, Kallis batted 26 of his 30 tests in the 90s in the top order (and we know our hero shys away from such challenges - needs the score to be 100 or more)

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[Jimmy Cliff]

Eye opening thread. We must stop rating IVAR now considering he averages a paltry 44 in the middle order across 85 matches  . That's a significant sample almost covering 70% of his career.

 

Within his era, 

 

Miandad, Abbas, Border, Vengsarkar, Saleem Malik, Azhar, Clive Lloyd, Crowe all have better numbers than Viv in the MO with Miandad almost 10 pts higher (53  > 44). In fact, Viv barely gets in the top 10 MO bats of his era and is not even the best in his own team . Since he batted in the MO for the vast majority of his career, it's only fair that we only compare his numbers in the MO to the numbers of other MO bats. His purple patch at the TO can be ignored just as we are ignoring Kallis' modest numbers in the TO.

 

LINK

 

53 >> 44, folks! Game over for Viv. Miandad uber ales .

 

 

 

 

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

In the 90s, Tendulkar has not necessarily scored empathetically v stronger bowling attacks 

 

v Pak w/ either Wasim or Waqar bowling, avg 30 

v SA w/ Donald, avg 32

v Aus w/ McGrath, avg 40 

 

So again that takes the shine of the 90s too .... and more smell from the coffee!

 

 

 

how about on odd number dates when it was cloudy instead of sunny, or some other random criteria.  Btw, Allan Donald considers Sachin the best batsman he bowled against.  But why should that matter when we are discussing the opinions and wild eyed theories of the Zenodamus.

 

Forgot to add, 

 

70 is still > than 38.

Edited January 4, 2021 by sandeep

[Jimmy Cliff]

@sandeep Kindly do the honors and move the above post to the designated "SRT sucks/Gavaskar rules" muthmaar thread.

[zen]

Just now, sandeep said:

how about on odd number dates when it was cloudy instead of sunny, or some other random criteria.  Btw, Allan Donald considers Sachin the best batsman he bowled against.  But why should that matter when we are discussing the opinions and wild eyed theories of the Zenodamus.

 

No need for that as Kallis avg 57 in the MO to Tendulkar's 51 over their careers - it includes all rainy, sunny, cloudy or whatever days! 

 

Additionally, Tendulkar needs the score to be 100 or more to be effective so that rules him out from any serious discussions 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

53 >> 44, folks! Game over for Viv. Miandad uber ales .

 

[Serpico]

3 hours ago, zen said:

 

 

 

If Tendulkar walked in at 20/2, playing fresh bowlers with red cherry, his avg falls to 41 (overall roughly 43 when the score is 99 or less. 7641 runs in 178 innings so a huge sample size) .... Shuts his case for a place in an ATG 11 in my book 

 

The above are cold heart breaking smell the coffee facts   

Not sure how to search for this stat.. but since 2002, between overs 1 - 30 when the cherry is red, Sachin averages 41.9 vs Kallis 38.8 

 

http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=SR+Tendulkar&role=batsman&format=Test&groupby=year&start_date=2002-01-01&end_date=2021-01-04&start_over=1&end_over=30

 

http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=JH+Kallis&role=batsman&format=Test&groupby=year&start_date=2002-01-01&end_date=2021-01-04&start_over=1&end_over=30

 

Kallis start winning from the 30th over to 80th over with sachin averaging 49 in that phase vs Kallis 69!

Again once second new ball is taken, from 80th over to 100th, Sachin averages 67 vs Kallis 63.

 

These stats are only available in cricmetric from 2002 onwards,  wish we could see in 90s as well. However it looks like kallis made right choice by moving to no. 4 after 2001 as he is more comfortable from 30th over onwards

[Serpico]

del

[Serpico]

-

Edited January 4, 2021 by Serpico

[Serpico]

36 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Over their careers, Kallis avgs 57 in MO to Tendulkar's 51 .... and we all know that a certain someone needs the score to be 100 or more to be more effective 

 

PS for your reference or may be frame it in your bedroom

 

 

 

Tendulkar avgs roughly 60 .... but for that the poor chap needs the score to read 100 or more when he walks in 

Not sure how to search for this stat.. but since 2002, between overs 1 - 30 when the cherry is red, Sachin averages 41.9 vs Kallis 38.8 

 

http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=SR+Tendulkar&role=batsman&format=Test&groupby=year&start_date=2002-01-01&end_date=2021-01-04&start_over=1&end_over=30

 

http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=JH+Kallis&role=batsman&format=Test&groupby=year&start_date=2002-01-01&end_date=2021-01-04&start_over=1&end_over=30

 

Kallis start winning from the 30th over to 80th over with sachin averaging 49 in that phase vs Kallis 69!

Again once second new ball is taken, from 80th over to 100th, Sachin averages 67 vs Kallis 63.

 

These stats are only available in cricmetric from 2002 onwards,  wish we could see in 90s as well. However it looks like kallis made right choice by moving to no. 4 after 2001 as he is more comfortable from 30th over onwards

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Serpico said:

Not sure how to search for this stat.. but since 2002, between overs 1 - 30 when the cherry is red, Sachin averages 41.9 vs Kallis 38.8 

 

http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=SR+Tendulkar&role=batsman&format=Test&groupby=year&start_date=2002-01-01&end_date=2021-01-04&start_over=1&end_over=30

 

http://www.cricmetric.com/playerstats.py?player=JH+Kallis&role=batsman&format=Test&groupby=year&start_date=2002-01-01&end_date=2021-01-04&start_over=1&end_over=30

 

Kallis start winning from the 30th over to 80th over with sachin averaging 49 in that phase vs Kallis 69!

Again once second new ball is taken, from 80th over to 100th, Sachin averages 67 vs Kallis 63.

 

These stats are only available in cricmetric from 2002 onwards,  wish we could see in 90s as well. However it looks like kallis made right choice by moving to no. 4 after 2001 as he is more comfortable from 30th over onwards

 

Kallis has a track record in the top order .... excluding BD and Zim, avgs 43 in 45 tests .... Avg goes up to 57 in MO  .... Tendulkar, of course has no track record in the top order (only one game) and avgs 51 in MO excl BD and Zim. Based on that screen shot, Sachin does well at the point of entry of 100 or more runs 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[zen]

del

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Based on that screen shot, Sachin does well at the point of entry of 100 or more runs 

 

 

Zen's fidelity to that screenshot is greater than the one proven by Sita's agnipariksha of loyalty to Ram.   

 

Banjo, koi bhi facts daalo, Zen bhai wohi shot khelenge.  

 

 

[Serpico]

45 minutes ago, zen said:

"Again a fallacy  .... Best batsman for many teams have batted in the top order (and have good record batting there) - Bradman, Sobers, Richards, Lara, Ponting, Kallis and so on .... Many have moved into the MO once their reflex slowed down relatively"

 

a) best batsmen have batted in the top order and have a good batting record there 

 

• Bradman, we know his avg
• Sobers, has played 25 innings in the top order (#1-3), avgs 59 
• Lara, has played 68 innings in the top order, avg 60
• Richards, has played 63 innings in the top order, avg 62
• and so on 

 

b) "Many" does not mean all so I do not see the point of your seeking for exceptions/random instances, and when the overall point is about top batsmen playing in the top order and doing well 

Sobers, Lara, Kallis were not their team's best batsmen when they started playing in top order.. they were rookies who were sent into top order. Sobers and Lara excelled there for a period but once they became the best batsmen and senior players, they moved down the order. Here Sachin wasn't sent into top order when he started out and by the time he became best batsman, he just continued the pragmatic choice that many teams make i.e., send best bat at 4. Just because Lara's best purple patch came when he was playing at no.3 doesn't make him the ideal top order batsman.. who knows what that avg would have been if he hasn't moved to no.4. At one point, Ponting averaged 68 at no.3.. but by the time he stopped playing at 3, that came down to 56. Lara was wiser and made the move earlier in his career than punter

[zen]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Zen's fidelity to that screenshot is greater than the one proven by Sita's agnipariksha of loyalty to Ram.   

 

Banjo, koi bhi facts daalo, Zen bhai wohi shot khelenge.  

 

 

 

Making my points