Best fast-medium pace bowlers of all time in order of merit?

[MechEng]

35 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If Waqar was 135ish bowler then Bumrah is a trundler. Waqar had genuine pace, Wasim could crank it up 145 plus when needed but mostly operated at 130 to 135.Given his height and quick arm action Akram had plenty of pace when he needed it.Imran transformed himself from Trundler to fast bowler. I have an issue with their ball tampering  but they all had pace .

 

Speed guns can be overrated, in the recent Australia series Cummins and Hazlewood made Pujara hop at 84-85 mph while Starc was easily handled even though he was the fastest among all bowlers.

[MechEng]

1 minute ago, Rightarmfast said:

Excellent find 

 

I accidentally discovered this article 6 months ago and bookmarked it.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, MechEng said:

 

Speed guns can be overrated, in the recent Australia series Cummins and Hazlewood made Pujara hop at 84-85 mph while Starc was easily handled even though he was the fastest among all bowlers.

Completely agree, you need certain pace but skill is more important.

[Rightarmfast]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Batsmen like Gavaskar and Boycott who have faced all the fast bowlers have mentioned about  Imran's pace many times. I have seen people calling Joel Garner trundler here.Read if you get a chance interviews of Imran's fast bowling partner Garth le Roux about Imran.

In the 99/2000 series against Australia, in Australia, Sunil Gavaskar  commented,( and this is verbatum), ' it is not easy to face a bowler like Glenn Mcgrath who bowls close to 100mph'. 

Mcgrath was bowling around 130's.

I get your point, but sometimes even the best of the players falter. When you are facing Courney Walsh, you would think he bowls close to 150k's. If you face Ajit Agarkar, no matter how fast he bowls, you will always consider him medium pacer. This is also a point that we should consider.

But like I said, this is a long discussion which perhaps has no end. Will be better to have this discussion over a pint of beer or 2. The bill for which, you will pay, ofcourse! ;p

Edited February 17, 2021 by Rightarmfast

[Rightarmfast]

9 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

Speed guns can be overrated, in the recent Australia series Cummins and Hazlewood made Pujara hop at 84-85 mph while Starc was easily handled even though he was the fastest among all bowlers.

This again goes to the point I was making about Siraj. As to why he shouldnt bother too much about increasing pace. Quality of bowling will always override the pace. 

Theres a reason Shaun Tait is not rated but Glenn Mcgrath is.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Batsmen like Gavaskar and Boycott who have faced all the fast bowlers have mentioned about  Imran's pace many times. 

 

 

Imran was quick for his era.

 

When India toured West Indies in 2019, Swann was one of the commentators. And he interviewed Gavaskar and Richards on TV. Many ICFers have watched this.

 

Swann asked the 2 legends, " Modern pacers claim that they are much quicker than the pacers of the 1970s and 1980s. What is your opinion on this ? ".

 

Gavaskar and Richards replied almost in unison, " That maybe so but we had to face them without helmets and high quality protective gears. Plus we could not practice against bowling machines set at 90 mph+ . Even lesser pace will feel threatening then ".

 

And this is the biggest truth. In the 1970s and early 1980s, pacers could be fast at a lesser pace for the reasons stated above.

 

 

[putrevus]

29 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

In the 99/2000 series against Australia, in Australia, Sunil Gavaskar ( and this is verbatum), ' it is not easy to face a bowler like Glenn Mcgrath who bowls close to 100mph'. 

Mcgrath was bowling around 130's.

I get your point, but sometimes even the best of the players falter. When you are facing Courney Walsh, you would think he bowls close to 150k's. If you face Ajit Agarkar, no matter how fast he bowls, you will always consider him medium pacer. This is also a point that we should consider.

But like I said, this is a long discussion which perhaps has no end. Will be better to have this discussion over a pint of beer or 2. The bill for which, you will pay, ofcourse! ;p

Speed gun readings as @MechEng said are overrated. Agarkar was always be treated as medium pacer because no matter what his speed gun reading said couldn't make batsman like Robin Smith hop around like Walsh. I will be more than happy to pay for the beer. Cheers.

Edited February 17, 2021 by putrevus

[Rightarmfast]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Speed gun readings as @MechEng said are overrated. Agarkar was always be treated as medium pacer because no matter what his speed gun reading said could make batsman like Robin Smith hop around like Walsh. I will be more than happy to pay for the beer. Cheers.

If Agarkar was so easy, he wouldnt have that many wickets in ODI's. Cheers :)

[putrevus]

26 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Imran was quick for his era.

 

When India toured West Indies in 2019, Swann was one of the commentators. And he interviewed Gavaskar and Richards on TV. Many ICFers have watched this.

 

Swann asked the 2 legends, " Modern pacers claim that they are much quicker than the pacers of the 1970s and 1980s. What is your opinion on this ? ".

 

Gavaskar and Richards replied almost in unison, " That maybe so but we had to face them without helmets and high quality protective gears. Plus we could not practice against bowling machines set at 90 mph+ . Even lesser pace will feel threatening then ".

 

And this is the biggest truth. In the 1970s and early 1980s, pacers could be fast at a lesser pace for the reasons stated above.

 

 

I never said 1980s fast bowlers were faster than todays bowlers. But I cannot agree today fast bowlers are faster than them either. Put 1980s WI fast bowler against any team in history they will be struggling against their pace and bounce even today.

 

You were talking about Siraj, I don't think Siraj will ever be great fast bowler as you need certain speed for fast bowler, if he loses another yard of pace he will become very ineffective.Siraj has all the ingredients to become great fast bowler except that extra yard of pace. India should maxmise his talent while he has that decent speed.

Edited February 17, 2021 by putrevus

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I never said 1980s fast bowlers were faster than todays bowlers. But I cannot agree today fast bowlers are faster than them either. Put 1980s WI fast bowler against any team in history they will be struggling against their pace and bounce even today.

 

 

I wrote what Gavaskar, Richards and Swann said.

 

 

16 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You were talking about Siraj, I don't think Siraj will ever be great fast bowler as you need certain speed for fast bowler, if he loses another yard of pace he will become very ineffective.Siraj has all the ingredients to become great fast bowler except that extra yard of pace. India should maxmise his talent while he has that decent speed.

 

 

I was not talking about Siraj. You are confusing me with someone else.

 

I think Siraj needs to be 5 kph quicker to be effective on slower pitches. His current pace may work on quick pitches.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Completely agree, you need certain pace but skill is more important.

 

 

1.  Who is looking for a bowler of high pace and low skills  ??  Have you met anyone ?  What about a bowler with high pace and good skills !!

 

 

2.  Certain skills are available only if one has pace ... like

a)  The quick and accurate yorker

b)  The quick and accurate bouncer

c)  The stump directed skiddy quick ball

d)  The short of length snorter

Edited February 17, 2021 by express bowling

[express bowling]

59 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

Speed guns can be overrated, in the recent Australia series Cummins and Hazlewood made Pujara hop at 84-85 mph while Starc was easily handled even though he was the fastest among all bowlers.

 

 

High release speeds are just one aspect of good bowling. There are many others. 

 

If someone lacks high release speeds then he has to have much more of the other aspects. Generally, the taller and bouncier a bowler is, he can afford to be a bit slower and still hurry batsmen with bounce.

 

P.s -- Cummins was bowling 85 mph to 89 mph most of the time in the test series and bowled some 90 mph to 93 mph balls in the last test, where he was most hostile.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

1.  Who is looking for a bowler of high pace and low skills  ??  Have you met anyone ?

 

 

2.  Certain skills are available only if one has pace ... like

a)  The quick and accurate yorker

b)  The quick and accurate bouncer

c)  The stump directed skiddy quick ball

d)  The short of length snorter

Everyone and every team fast tracks guys with speed even though they might not have skills which are better than some who bowl at lower speeds.They all hope guys with speed develop skill to compliment their speed.

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Everyone and every team fast tracks guys with speed even though they might not have skills which are better than some who bowl at lower speeds.They all hope guys with speed develop skill to compliment their speed.

 

 

That is just a development process.

 

The ultimate aim is to have a bowler who combines pace with skills.

 

 

[Vilander]

8 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Surprisingly, when I was watching old videos of the 92-93 English series, Waqar was clocked at around 130-135ish and commentators were calling him fast!

yup same experience for me, i know Wasim bowled a few at 140 in 2003 wc. Waqar was always around 130 odd when ever i saw him when there were radars but he did look fast and threatening with his run up and delivery in olden times may be he did have some spells there were quick but never under radar we can give some benefit of doubt ( so i get it that he is a fast bowler - much like Srinath - who has recorded speeds in excess of 150 multiple times but was not always that quick, in 2003 wc his last series he was still around 135 -142 which was fast medium) but surely Imran/Wasim were medium or fast medium at best. 

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

This again goes to the point I was making about Siraj. As to why he shouldnt bother too much about increasing pace. Quality of bowling will always override the pace. 

Theres a reason Shaun Tait is not rated but Glenn Mcgrath is.

here is the thing 

 

Cummins and Hazelwood are better than stark because they hit better line and length and have better control on where the ball lands, not because they bowl slower than Starc. And if those two were to bowl as fast as starc they would be even better. 

[Vilander]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

If Waqar was 135ish bowler then Bumrah is a trundler.

stop ranting, what does this even mean lol. Bumrah has recorded history of hitting 150 + in LOI's and Tests. can you show a few delivers from Waqar in same bracket. Waqars pace has nothing to do with Bumrah lol. 

[Vilander]

6 hours ago, putrevus said:

If Waqar was 135ish bowler then Bumrah is a trundler. Waqar had genuine pace, Wasim could crank it up 145 plus when needed but mostly operated at 130 to 135.Given his height and quick arm action Akram had plenty of pace when he needed it.Imran transformed himself from Trundler to fast bowler. I have an issue with their ball tampering  but they all had pace .

show video proof you put it there 145 - 130 to 135 fast bowler etc. please give some videos.

[putrevus]

17 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

That is just a development process.

 

The ultimate aim is to have a bowler who combines pace with skills.

 

 

Yes in that quest, lot of bowlers who can never attain those two skills together get chances over guys who have others skills but lack speed.

[putrevus]

13 hours ago, Vilander said:

show video proof you put it there 145 - 130 to 135 fast bowler etc. please give some videos.

 If you think they were 135ish bowlers be my guest.  They is no need to prove that Waqar was a express fast bowler.He was express fast bowler.