ash Posted April 7, 2021 Posted April 7, 2021 Not a rant , I am genuinely looking for some answers. The general sentiment I can see among the elite and in this forum is " we are getting what we deserve because people are not careful". But I have some questions 1) When a lockdown was announced in March last year, many questioned the need but the central government said the lockdown was to prepare the healthcare system for the eventual rush. When we hit the peak at June, the hospitals were still overwhelmed. Did any state government use this lockdown properly to increase the infrastructure? How was your state? 2) Vaccination - Let's start with Astrazeneca, putting all eggs in one basket. SII started manufacturing AZ very early, after Trial 1 to get a headstart. Luckily it passed the trials, so the plan seemed to work but now AZ is not very effective against variants whereas mRNA vaccines like Moderna and Pzifer work against all variants. But till now there is no effort from the govt to procure or manufacture mRNA vaccines. Why?? 3) The astrazeneca headstart, did the govt use that advantage? Manufacturing started around Nov, but vaccination started on March, effectively wasting the downwave we had from Nov-Feb. All our vulnerable group should have been vaccinated now, but still they are in dose 1 in a middle of a wave. Why was there no rush to vaccinate the vulnerable before the second wave?? 4) Why not let states decide the vaccination plan? There have been reports that vaccine doses are wasted because of poor turnout. What is the harm in allowing states decide how to distribute vaccines? 5) Covaxin fiasco, vaccinating public without trial 3. 6) How many variants are now in India. We have the UK variant, SA variant, P1 from Brazil and California variant. No data on if these are already in India, and how effective AZ is against these variants. Zero transparency? Why? Would appreciate logical answers instead of whataboutery and comparisons. Yes we can compare with Brazil and say "we are better" but that is just evading the criticism.
sandeep Posted April 7, 2021 Posted April 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, ash said: But till now there is no effort from the govt to procure or manufacture mRNA vaccines. Why?? Do you have any grasp of what logistics are required for mRNA vaccines? It is not an option for India. 4 minutes ago, ash said: Why not let states decide the vaccination plan? There have been reports that vaccine doses are wasted because of poor turnout. What is the harm in allowing states decide how to distribute vaccines? This is a false assertion masquerading as a 'question'. Bottomline is that the vaccine is in limited supply, and there are huge challenges in distribution, along with production. It is completely reasonable to have a degree of central policy planning while allowing the states to take the lead in distribution. If you don't do that, you can create chaos with perceptions of inequity and favorable treatment of one state over the other. 7 minutes ago, ash said: How many variants are now in India. We have the UK variant, SA variant, P1 from Brazil and California variant. No data on if these are already in India, and how effective AZ is against these variants. Zero transparency? Why? Do you understand how variants are identified? What sort of infrastructure and testing is required to identify them? Its a question of available resources, and how to allocate them. I am all for "criticism" - for any government - center or state. By all means, mistakes should be called out and publicized. But when you turn a national crisis of this magnitude into a political game of "state vs center" you are falling into a trap set up by corrupt haraamis. dial_100, ravishingravi, Clarke and 6 others 1 5 3
ash Posted April 7, 2021 Author Posted April 7, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, sandeep said: Do you have any grasp of what logistics are required for mRNA vaccines? It is not an option for India. This is a false assertion masquerading as a 'question'. Bottomline is that the vaccine is in limited supply, and there are huge challenges in distribution, along with production. It is completely reasonable to have a degree of central policy planning while allowing the states to take the lead in distribution. If you don't do that, you can create chaos with perceptions of inequity and favorable treatment of one state over the other. Do you understand how variants are identified? What sort of infrastructure and testing is required to identify them? Its a question of available resources, and how to allocate them. I am all for "criticism" - for any government - center or state. By all means, mistakes should be called out and publicized. But when you turn a national crisis of this magnitude into a political game of "state vs center" you are falling into a trap set up by corrupt haraamis. I know that mRNA vaccines require cold storage. There are challenges yes, but that doesn't mean it cannot be addressed. "Oh we so poor country we don't have infra" is not a valid backup tbh. If it is out of the equation,then what is the alternative to address the variants? Booster shots? Stopping international travel? Have we taken any steps towards it? Govt has not mentioned that vaccine is in limited supply, they are still claiming that they have enough. There is no news of this anywhere. Wasn't that the whole point of starting the AZ vaccine manufacture last year itself ? Are you saying that Indian government can't afford sequencing the virus to find different strain? I would think that should be the priority, to stop the rampant spread. This is not state Vs Center, I am not advocating states to purchase vaccines directly. Center allocates a fixed amount to a state, why should it matter how they use it? Many govt hospitals are not even getting the minimum 7 people required to open a vaccine case and states are unable to use them for other people who are interested. The vaccine is expiring and we are not vaccinating enough as well. And BTW just because this is a national crisis, doesn't mean that the govt actions cannot be analysed. This is just common sense. Edited April 7, 2021 by ash
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 5 hours ago, ash said: I know that mRNA vaccines require cold storage. There are challenges yes, but that doesn't mean it cannot be addressed. "Oh we so poor country we don't have infra" is not a valid backup tbh. Really? so what do you think should be done? The government should shift resources and focus to build a mRNA vaccine factory, for which we don't have patent or manufacturing rights, and simultaneously come up with a sub-freezing cold chain infrastructure for distribution across the country? Is that a better option? Nobody in their right mind would think so. Or someone who simply wants to crib without regard to reason or facts. 5 hours ago, ash said: Govt has not mentioned that vaccine is in limited supply, they are still claiming that they have enough. There is no news of this anywhere. Wasn't that the whole point of starting the AZ vaccine manufacture last year itself ? Even places like the EU, that have so much more financial and political power, along with manufacturing capacity and know-how, do not have access to enough vaccines for their small populations. And India doesn't have the option of playing the USA game, where they can simply unilaterally decide to just prevent export of the vaccine - its not a viable option, and would prevent us from having the access to the vaccine we have now. 6 hours ago, ash said: Are you saying that Indian government can't afford sequencing the virus to find different strain? I would think that should be the priority, to stop the rampant spread. The level of sequencing required to monitor each and every strain of the virus, is too high. Its just logical to limit such additional testing to targeted areas where the spread seems to be clustering. Again, its a question of targeting resources in optimal ways. 6 hours ago, ash said: And BTW just because this is a national crisis, doesn't mean that the govt actions cannot be analysed. This is just common sense. of course it can be "analysed", but when you make silly grandiose claims, that Indian Govt should have invested in mRNA vaccine, then it either reflects a negative mindset pre-determined to focus on "criticism" for its own sake, regardless of the facts, or to be blunt, a very childish immature (lack of) grasp of the logistical, scientific, and political complexities of the issues at hand. 6 hours ago, ash said: This is not state Vs Center, I am not advocating states to purchase vaccines directly. Center allocates a fixed amount to a state, why should it matter how they use it? Many govt hospitals are not even getting the minimum 7 people required to open a vaccine case and states are unable to use them for other people who are interested. The vaccine is expiring and we are not vaccinating enough as well. yeah, I'd like to see some facts to back up such silly claims that "minimum 7 people" are not there. I mean, we say today a greenbro fan brag once again about "pace bowling depth" in Pakistan - doesn't mean its true. someone 1
ash Posted April 8, 2021 Author Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, sandeep said: Really? so what do you think should be done? The government should shift resources and focus to build a mRNA vaccine factory, for which we don't have patent or manufacturing rights, and simultaneously come up with a sub-freezing cold chain infrastructure for distribution across the country? Is that a better option? Nobody in their right mind would think so. Or someone who simply wants to crib without regard to reason or facts. Even places like the EU, that have so much more financial and political power, along with manufacturing capacity and know-how, do not have access to enough vaccines for their small populations. And India doesn't have the option of playing the USA game, where they can simply unilaterally decide to just prevent export of the vaccine - its not a viable option, and would prevent us from having the access to the vaccine we have now. The level of sequencing required to monitor each and every strain of the virus, is too high. Its just logical to limit such additional testing to targeted areas where the spread seems to be clustering. Again, its a question of targeting resources in optimal ways. of course it can be "analysed", but when you make silly grandiose claims, that Indian Govt should have invested in mRNA vaccine, then it either reflects a negative mindset pre-determined to focus on "criticism" for its own sake, regardless of the facts, or to be blunt, a very childish immature (lack of) grasp of the logistical, scientific, and political complexities of the issues at hand. yeah, I'd like to see some facts to back up such silly claims that "minimum 7 people" are not there. I mean, we say today a greenbro fan brag once again about "pace bowling depth" in Pakistan - doesn't mean its true. Again if you just want to blame our infra for not procuring mRNA vaccine and not address the issue, go ahead. FYI even western countries have the same issues, that's why countries like UK/Australia are using both both AZ and Pzifer/Moderna, Pzifer/Moderna in places with better infra. EU does not have a manufacturing plant for AZ, it is procuring from UK and India, and they are tied with export issues and political blamegames following Brexit. Not a good comparison. And as I said , comparing with another country and saying "look they are worse" is not a good argument. And India has now stopped the exports for now. So what you are saying is basically we wasted the headstart and now struggling to manufacture enough? And this is not the govts fault? Okay.. The sequencing point also went over your head. I am not asking then to sequence every case, random sampling is definitely required in hotspots to find the variants. If you don't analyse it, how would you know if your vaccines are even effective? Just Google vaccine wastage. There are facts about percentage wasted per state. And a vial if opened should be used within 4 hours - which requires minimum 7 .that is the protocol followed and I have been sent back once for my parents cause there were not enough people. Refer Attached if you are lazy. Again , just because you don't know something doesn't mean it is not true. Just needs some basic research, What facts are you saying I am disregarding here? I am yet to see one fact from you. Do you have news articles about vaccine shortage in India? Or government's position on mRNA vaccines? Or govt plans to address variants? Plans for booster shots? Plans for younger population now that a link has been found with AZ vaccines and bloodclots? you are speaking on behalf of the govt , assuming everything. I am looking for facts or statementa from government Edited April 8, 2021 by ash
coffee_rules Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 Some of the pressure on SII to export AZ vaccine (CovidSheild) to UN requirements, India is withholding due to domestic demand and its shortage of supplies . https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/astrazeneca-serves-legal-notice-to-serum-institute-over-supply-delays-101617844156970-amp.html?__twitter_impression=true “AstraZeneca has sent us a legal notice (for delays in supplying the vaccine) and the Indian government is also aware of that. I cannot comment on the legal notice as it is confidential, but we are examining all avenues to amicably manage and resolve legal disputes over contractual obligations that Serum Institute is not able to fulfil due to its prioritisation of Indian supplies. Everyone has been very understanding so far. The government is evaluating what it can do to resolve the issue,” Poonawalla said. Poonawalla, whose company is the world’s largest vaccine maker, separately told AP that SII will be able to restart exports by June if new infections subside in India since the company has “chosen to prioritise India temporarily for two months”.
coffee_rules Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 Guardian on UN pressure on SII to serve vaccines to poorer countries . India is withholding vaccines because of the surge in poor India https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/02/india-in-charge-of-developing-world-covid-vaccine-supply-unsustainable?__twitter_impression=true
coffee_rules Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 Big Pharma should relax contractual restrictions on patents and not think of profits in this out of need. Influenza vaccine inventor didn’t have any patents, I suppose. Somebody can clarify
ash Posted April 8, 2021 Author Posted April 8, 2021 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Big Pharma should relax contractual restrictions on patents and not think of profits in this out of need. Influenza vaccine inventor didn’t have any patents, I suppose. Somebody can clarify Yeah in an ideal scenario they should, but unfortunately they won't do it. If vaccine shortage is a problem, then we have no other option to go for other non mRNA vaccines like the Russian or the Chinese one. I still would like the govt to take some steps to procure mRNA, atleast for the most vulnerable. sandeep 1
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 6 hours ago, ash said: Not a good comparison. And as I said , comparing with another country and saying "look they are worse" is not a good argument. sure, but reality is what it is. When you have a 100 rupee budget, you can't expect to be dining at the Taj. And if you are eating better than the folks eating at the Taj, then the criticism is __________. 6 hours ago, ash said: The sequencing point also went over your head. I am not asking then to sequence every case, random sampling is definitely required in hotspots to find the variants. If you don't analyse it, how would you know if your vaccines are even effective? And how is it that you claim to know that random sampling isn't being done already? For someone who's citing zero facts, you sure are asserting a lot of hot air in the form of "I'm just asking questions here". Your agenda is leaking. 6 hours ago, ash said: Plans for younger population now that a link has been found with AZ vaccines and bloodclots? do yourself a favor, go look up the probability of "bloodclots" related to AZ vaccine. The chances of such side effects are present for all vaccines that are commonly administered. 6 hours ago, ash said: you are speaking on behalf of the govt , assuming everything. I am looking for facts or statementa from government I'm not speaking on "behalf of govt". You started a discussion on a forum, inviting others to respond. Now when folks are responding, in ways that challenge your silly assertions, you want a "government" response. Have you read the information released by the govt minister of Health? I'd suggest do that first before you jump up and down.
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 4 hours ago, coffee_rules said: Big Pharma should relax contractual restrictions on patents and not think of profits in this out of need. Influenza vaccine inventor didn’t have any patents, I suppose. Somebody can clarify Not going to happen, because if a covid vaccine can go "off patent", why not cancer, or other life threatening drugs. US and WTO regime don't care if a few million die when billions in profit are at stake.
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 33 minutes ago, ash said: Yeah in an ideal scenario they should, but unfortunately they won't do it. If vaccine shortage is a problem, then we have no other option to go for other non mRNA vaccines like the Russian or the Chinese one. I still would like the govt to take some steps to procure mRNA, atleast for the most vulnerable. Sitting in Dharavi, dreaming of ferrari ki sawari.
coffee_rules Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 2 minutes ago, sandeep said: Not going to happen, because if a covid vaccine can go "off patent", why not cancer, or other life threatening drugs. US and WTO regime don't care if a few million die when billions in profit are at stake. Others are not pandemics. Corona has affected lot more people, spreading to all countries, hurting global trade, tourism, salaries and economies of many countries.
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 Just now, coffee_rules said: Others are not pandemics. Corona has affected lot more people, spreading to all countries, hurting global trade, tourism, salaries and economies of many countries. I'm not disputing the logic - its unimpeachable. But paisa bolta hai Coffee bhai. coffee_rules 1
ash Posted April 8, 2021 Author Posted April 8, 2021 10 minutes ago, sandeep said: sure, but reality is what it is. When you have a 100 rupee budget, you can't expect to be dining at the Taj. And if you are eating better than the folks eating at the Taj, then the criticism is __________. And how is it that you claim to know that random sampling isn't being done already? For someone who's citing zero facts, you sure are asserting a lot of hot air in the form of "I'm just asking questions here". Your agenda is leaking. do yourself a favor, go look up the probability of "bloodclots" related to AZ vaccine. The chances of such side effects are present for all vaccines that are commonly administered. I'm not speaking on "behalf of govt". You started a discussion on a forum, inviting others to respond. Now when folks are responding, in ways that challenge your silly assertions, you want a "government" response. Have you read the information released by the govt minister of Health? I'd suggest do that first before you jump up and down. I like how your are quoting only what you can answer conveniently ignoring other points . your answer to mRNA is we are so poor we can't afford (again not the govt position, you look like you know everything so why doubt that) . And reg the variant sequencing your answer is the govt is doing it in a secret lab, just cause they are not revealing it doesnt mean they are not doing it.. righttt . Okay let me make it simple. Is there a vaccine shortage ? If yes, what was the govt doing from Nov till March without giving the nod for SII to produce more? What is the status of Covaxin production? If No, why can't the states decide whom to vaccinate to reduce vaccine wastage?
coffee_rules Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 Most of the anti- BJP journalists like Barkha, etc have been posting similar to the OP Vaccines are not over-the-counter medications that some e-commerce site like Amazon or Big basket can be used to order. Even developed countries like Canada and Germany which had ordered vaccines from Moderna, Pfizer, J&J dont get access to them https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-56035306?__twitter_impression=true “ has signed deals with seven vaccine suppliers - Moderna and Pfizer, as well as ones with pending authorisation like AstraZeneca and Johnson and Johnson - for a total of over 400 million doses. But it seems it wasn't positioned for priority delivery of the two authorised jabs. “
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, ash said: your answer to mRNA is we are so poor we can't afford (again not the govt position, you look like you know everything so why doubt that) I don't need "gormint" to tell me that mRNA is not a viable option for India. Just like I don't need gormint to tell me that we are not going to have hyperloop connectivity between Delhi-Chennai next year. And that's not because I "know everything". Its just bleedingly obvious. 6 minutes ago, ash said: Okay let me make it simple. Is there a vaccine shortage ? There is a global vaccine shortage. And is going to be for another year or so. 7 minutes ago, ash said: If yes, what was the govt doing from Nov till March without giving the nod for SII to produce more? What is the status of Covaxin production? You are a funny one - one side of the mouth you are arguing for "state" control over distribution over the vaccine, but other side, you want mai-baap gormint to provide vaccines on a platter without shortage. Like I said before, your agenda is leaking. Cribbing over the policy protocols on vaccine distribution simply because "my parents had to make an extra trip to get it", is exactly what it is. Silly. There is no perfect policy prescription in such situations. Overall policy is developed with an attempt for equitable distribution to vulnerable citizens. If you loosen the criteria, that opens up the door for widespread fraud. And I'm betting you know that quite well, but you still want to criticize for the sake of it. Carry on.
ash Posted April 8, 2021 Author Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, sandeep said: I don't need "gormint" to tell me that mRNA is not a viable option for India. Just like I don't need gormint to tell me that we are not going to have hyperloop connectivity between Delhi-Chennai next year. And that's not because I "know everything". Its just bleedingly obvious. There is a global vaccine shortage. And is going to be for another year or so. You are a funny one - one side of the mouth you are arguing for "state" control over distribution over the vaccine, but other side, you want mai-baap gormint to provide vaccines on a platter without shortage. Like I said before, your agenda is leaking. Cribbing over the policy protocols on vaccine distribution simply because "my parents had to make an extra trip to get it", is exactly what it is. Silly. There is no perfect policy prescription in such situations. Overall policy is developed with an attempt for equitable distribution to vulnerable citizens. If you loosen the criteria, that opens up the door for widespread fraud. And I'm betting you know that quite well, but you still want to criticize for the sake of it. Carry on. Again with the comparison. There is no global vaccine shortage. US has moved their vaccination date ahead by 2 weeks, UK is on track. EU is procuring vaccines , not manufacturing them hence the delay. We have SII , already exported 6 crore vaccines to other countries. Are we leveraging it properly? Should I share the link to SII CEO's interview link where he says he is waiting for a grant to ramp up production? Spin it all you want, the govt basically assumed that second wave won't happen. Policy protocols are required but if they don't work, there is no harm in changing it instead of clinging to bureaucracy. Vaccine wastage is real, people are not rushing to vaccinate themselves. If the vaccines are easily available and there is no rush, where would "widespread fraud" occur? Problem is you should either use common sense or trust facts. Seems you don't do both Edited April 8, 2021 by ash sandeep 1
ash Posted April 8, 2021 Author Posted April 8, 2021 Reg mRNA vaccines, all the govt has to do is to authorize the use in the country and let private chains work out the logistics. Is it fair to all? No, but if more are vaccinated , more good to the society. If someone is willing to pay 10k or 20k for a mRNA vaccine, why to stop them? sandeep 1
sandeep Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, ash said: Reg mRNA vaccines, all the govt has to do is to authorize the use in the country and let private chains work out the logistics. Is it fair to all? No, but if more are vaccinated , more good to the society. If someone is willing to pay 10k or 20k for a mRNA vaccine, why to stop them? more fake news and disinfo.
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