Vaccine theory

[BacktoCricaddict]

https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive/vaccine-refusers-are-not-stupid/

Vaccine refusers are not stupid.  

 

Different people reject vaccinations for different reasons

 

So I think I do understand why so many people refuse vaccination. I think their decision is wrong, but I don’t think it is stupid. Some of these people are intelligent and informed (albeit usually mis-informed) and they think their reasoning is valid (and sometimes it is). They are doing the best they can with the information they have. By understanding where they’re coming from, we may have a chance to influence some of them; others will remain unreachable. The real problem boils down to an ideologically divided society that has lost respect for science, for authorities, and even for truth itself.

But there is hope. As more and more people are vaccinated, a bandwagon effect will kick in. Many who currently reject vaccination will want to join in and do what they see the majority are doing, especially when they realize how effective it has been in reducing the infection rates and death rates.

[coffee_rules]

^^^^Why are vaccines still approved only for emergency use till now? Why can’t they be approved for all times if they were so sure if it is effective?

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

^^^^Why are vaccines still approved only for emergency use till now? Why can’t they be approved for all times if they were so sure if it is effective?

There is a process.  

 

For EUA, you need 2 months of data.  Which was submitted.  Approved.   

 

For full approval, you need to submit 6 months of data.  Which is now submitted.  Seeking full approval for 16 and above.  Under review.  Review process takes 2 months plus.  

 

Trial continues even after full approval with post-market analysis, additional age groups data collection which started later etc.  

 

Ashte, guru.  Yaav kireeku illa.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[Number]

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/is-ivermectin-the-new-penicillin/article_b6b7afd8-bd77-11eb-8259-af11e3c83aea.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

 

Tamilnadu outlawed Ivermectin and cases are not coming in control there.

This article is suggesting the cases dropping in UP and Delhi is due to Ivermectin usage.

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Number said:

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/is-ivermectin-the-new-penicillin/article_b6b7afd8-bd77-11eb-8259-af11e3c83aea.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

 

Tamilnadu outlawed Ivermectin and cases are not coming in control there.

This article is suggesting the cases dropping in UP and Delhi is due to Ivermectin usage.

 

You don't need ivermectin just undercounting is enough to bring down the numbers.

 

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/covid-19-toll-up-government-may-be-undercounting-its-dead-76456

[Number]

49 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

You don't need ivermectin just undercounting is enough to bring down the numbers.

 

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/covid-19-toll-up-government-may-be-undercounting-its-dead-76456

 

Well, the hospital beds anywhere in UP and Delhi are empty now. 

Most are being converted to non-covid hospitals as no more patients.

There are no more sos calls for Remdesivir, Plasma, ICU beds etc.

I am not saying it is Ivermectin effect but just dismissing everything as undercounting is blind slogging. 

May be people are scared and strictly following lockdown compared to TN or Kerala here as they saw big catastrophe unfolding in front of their eyes while in TN and Kerala situation never got so bad so they are not following lockdown as strictly.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Number

[BacktoCricaddict]

Are we saying that undercounting is only happening in some states, which also happen to be using Ivermectin?  That's a real stretch.    

 

Initial skepticism is justified, but now that there are some strong data in its favour, mind-changing is warranted.  And it's not an either-or game.    Vaccines are the long-term solution.  People can't be taking ivermectin as a prophylactic regularly for the rest of their lives, but as a stop-gap solution, it seems to be working.  All I hope is that there are enough supplies for people who are already taking it for other afflictions.  

 

 

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

You don't need ivermectin just undercounting is enough to bring down the numbers.

 

https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/health/covid-19-toll-up-government-may-be-undercounting-its-dead-76456

Edited May 26, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[Number]

8 minutes ago, Number said:

 

Well, the hospital beds anywhere in UP and Delhi are empty now. 

Most are being converted to non-covid hospitals as no more patients.

There are no more sos calls for Remdesivir, Plasma, ICU beds etc.

I am not saying it is Ivermectin effect but just dismissing everything as undercounting is blind slogging. 

May be people are scared and strictly following lockdown compared to TN or Kerala here as they saw big catastrophe unfolding in front of their eyes while in TN and Kerala situation never got so bad so they are not following lockdown as strictly.

 

 

I used to track all these pages during peak

https://beds.dgmhup-covid19.in/EN/covid19bedtrack

 

https://covidinfo.rajasthan.gov.in/COVID19HOSPITALBEDSSTATUSSTATE.aspx

 

https://coronabeds.jantasamvad.org/

 

There was barely 5-10% bed availability. Now it is over 70%

Active case load has surely reduced.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

41 minutes ago, Number said:

 

Well, the hospital beds anywhere in UP and Delhi are empty now. 

Most are being converted to non-covid hospitals as no more patients.

There are no more sos calls for Remdesivir, Plasma, ICU beds etc.

I am not saying it is Ivermectin effect but just dismissing everything as undercounting is blind slogging. 

May be people are scared and strictly following lockdown compared to TN or Kerala here as they saw big catastrophe unfolding in front of their eyes while in TN and Kerala situation never got so bad so they are not following lockdown as strictly.

 

 

How about 5 million vaccine that was distributed in UP. Why do we not think, it is probably helping? 

[urbestfriend]

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

How about 5 million vaccine that was distributed in UP. Why do we not think, it is probably helping? 

What's the unvaccinated population of UP?

[BacktoCricaddict]

17 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

How about 5 million vaccine that was distributed in UP. Why do we not think, it is probably helping? 

I don't think anyone is saying it is not.  We wouldn't really know the impact of each intervention unless data are gathered systematically and honestly.  But, at a time when public and health providers are just holding on to dear life, one cannot expect them to be doing research as well.  

 

Vaccinations work.  No doubt.   Recent ivermectin data show it is effective.  Both can be true.  In the end, we use all tools in the toolbox and not get into turf wars about them.   

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I don't think anyone is saying it is not.  We wouldn't really know the impact of each intervention unless data are gathered systematically and honestly.  But, at a time when public and health providers are just holding on to dear life, one cannot expect them to be doing research as well.  

 

Vaccinations work.  No doubt.   Recent ivermectin data show it is effective.  Both can be true.  In the end, we use all tools in the toolbox and not get into turf wars about them.   

 

I have no problem using all the tools available. Especially in a country like India where people cannot afford hospital fees, they won't mind taking these medicines. I have no issues using it.  South America predominantly engaged in using this from the beginning. Everything is anecdotal. NObody knows if they recovered automatically (like millions of others) or this helped. It could be a placebo.  But let us not target vaccines with conspiracy theories.  

 

 

Tom hanks wife was treated with cloroquine and she suffered extreme side effects. This was back in April 15 2020.  Same conspiracy theories were spread at that time. Big pharma is working against hyroxy chloroquine.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/15/rita-wilson-tells-of-extreme-side-effects-of-experimental-covid-19-drug-chloroquine

[Number]

I was talking to my friend yesterday. 

His father works in a big Covid hospital in Rajasthan.

They have 400 HCWs.

Last year there were 200 infections  among HCWs and a significant num of them got hospitalised and a few deaths too were there.

This year in last 2 months despite 5× more case load hardly anyone got infected. No serious symptoms.

What worked ?

They were all vaccinated by February.

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

29 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I have no problem using all the tools available. Especially in a country like India where people cannot afford hospital fees, they won't mind taking these medicines. I have no issues using it.  South America predominantly engaged in using this from the beginning. Everything is anecdotal. NObody knows if they recovered automatically (like millions of others) or this helped. It could be a placebo.  But let us not target vaccines with conspiracy theories.  

 

 

Tom hanks wife was treated with cloroquine and she suffered extreme side effects. This was back in April 15 2020.  Same conspiracy theories were spread at that time. Big pharma is working against hyroxy chloroquine.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/15/rita-wilson-tells-of-extreme-side-effects-of-experimental-covid-19-drug-chloroquine

Bhai, you are coming up with false equivalencies here.  CQ/HCQ, I agree with you.   

 

But that does not mean we apply the same conclusion to Ivermectin. 

 

Ivermectin has gone past being anecdotal.  Twice in the last 2 days, I posted a link to a meta-analysis (highest quality of evidence) paper that showed significant positive effects after combining data from many studies.  This is different.  And if anyone claims to be a person of science, then changing one's mind based on good evidence is paramount.  Let's not fall into trap of painting with broad brushes.    

Edited May 26, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[BacktoCricaddict]

10 minutes ago, Number said:

I was talking to my friend yesterday. 

His father works in a big Covid hospital in Rajasthan.

They have 400 HCWs.

Last year there were 200 infections  among HCWs and a significant num of them got hospitalised and a few deaths too were there.

This year in last 2 months despite 5× more case load hardly anyone got infected. No serious symptoms.

What worked ?

They were all vaccinated by February.

 

It is one data point. 

 

Experts must put consolidate the data, put all the variables on the table, remove confounding factors and determine exactly what was different.  Could be vaccine.  Could be ivermectin.  Could be a combo.  A bunch of keyboard warriors on ICF cannot just take your friend's narration and conclude what really worked.  

Edited May 26, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Bhai, you are coming up with false equivalencies here.  CQ/HCQ, agreed. 

 

Ivermectin has gone past being anecdotal.  Twice in the last 2 days, I posted a link to a meta-analysis (highest quality of evidence) paper that showed significant positive effects after combining data from many studies.  This is different.  And if anyone claims to be a person of science, then changing one's mind based on good evidence is paramount.  Let's not fall into trap of painting with broad brushes.    

 

I have read a few articles as well. Current state is "still under study". Not rejected. Not like whole world has banned it. CHeckz authorized its use long back for COVID. Majority of the south american countries are already using it. India is also using it. USA/UK have banned it for use of COVID. Most of the other countries are using from what i understand.  In US I can't even get erithromycin without doctor's prescription. In India i am sure you can get it easily.  Not like whole world has to wait for approval from someone.  SO this pharma conspiracy theory is ridiculous. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I have read a few articles as well. Current state is "still under study". Not rejected. Not like whole world has banned it. CHeckz authorized its use long back for COVID. Majority of the south american countries are already using it. India is also using it. USA/UK have banned it for use of COVID. Most of the other countries are using from what i understand.  In US I can't even get erithromycin without doctor's prescription. In India i am sure you can get it easily.  Not like whole world has to wait for approval from someone.  SO this pharma conspiracy theory is ridiculous. 

Not to keep belaboring the point, but after May 20, there was a meta-analysis published.  Not just any article.  Quality of evidence matters.  This actual journal article is linked on ICF somewhere.  It is a thorough analysis of all available data, and tips the scales in favor of IM.  

 

I completely agree with the pharma conspiracy theories, vaccine conspiracy theories etc. being bunk, but one must take off those glasses while looking at scientific data.    

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

It is one data point. 

 

Experts must put consolidate the data, put all the variables on the table, remove confounding factors and determine exactly what was different.  Could be vaccine.  Could be ivermectin.  Could be a combo.  A bunch of keyboard warriors on ICF cannot just take your friend's narration and conclude what really worked.  

 

Or they have better protection? it could be combination of many things. Some probably didn't need any treatment.  I used to get seasonal cold, cough. Once i ate a whole pineapple. Next  day i felt better. Suddenly i had this belief pineapple helps with cold. Same with eucaplptus oil inhalation, cinnamon/honey tea. green tea. When we are struck with disease it develops several symptoms. Especially covid causes myriad of symptoms. We have many separate treatments for handling these symptoms. Hence i consider these things as symptom handlers. Even sitting in prone position has saved lives.  Same with Vitamin C/D/Zinc. Echinacea.  If i am right they even explored HIV treatment which boost T cells.  Since nobody possibly could have had immunity against this Novel Corona Virus they examined all the potential existing drugs that can help with mitigating the severity.  Ivermectin's name has been floating around since the beginning. This has gained traction now.  Will wait and see how it pans out.  In US still it is used just as anti-parasite not as anti-viral drug.

[rkt.india]

21 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

It is one data point. 

 

Experts must put consolidate the data, put all the variables on the table, remove confounding factors and determine exactly what was different.  Could be vaccine.  Could be ivermectin.  Could be a combo.  A bunch of keyboard warriors on ICF cannot just take your friend's narration and conclude what really worked.  

Also need data about how many people died after taking both doses of vaccines due to COVID and also how many died due to the side effects of vaccines.

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Or they have better protection? it could be combination of many things. Some probably didn't need any treatment.  I used to get seasonal cold, cough. Once i ate a whole pineapple. Next  day i felt better. Suddenly i had this belief pineapple helps with cold. Same with eucaplptus oil inhalation, cinnamon/honey tea. green tea. When we are struck with disease it develops several symptoms. Especially covid causes myriad of symptoms. We have many separate treatments for handling these symptoms. Hence i consider these things as symptom handlers. Even sitting in prone position has saved lives.  Same with Vitamin C/D/Zinc. Echinacea.  If i am right they even explored HIV treatment which boost T cells.  Since nobody possibly could have had immunity against this Novel Corona Virus they examined all the potential existing drugs that can help with mitigating the severity.  Ivermectin's name has been floating around since the beginning. This has gained traction now.  Will wait and see how it pans out.  In US still it is used just as anti-parasite not as anti-viral drug.

Totally agree on all of that pineapple, honey tea BS. 

 

Ivermectin is a whole different story.  None of those things - eucalyptus, green tea etc - have the weight of evidence that Ivermectin now has for Covid prophylaxis.  Am sorry you being intransigent even in the face of strong evidence.  

 

https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/Fulltext/2021/06000/Review_of_the_Emerging_Evidence_Demonstrating_the.4.aspx

Top journal.  Meta-analysis of multiple studies.  Well-done study.  Significant effect.  Time to accept it.  Accepting this for IM does not negate any of the other points you are making.