Vaccine theory

[Real McCoy]

I have been watching over the last year. The first wave in India had absolutely no effect but the second wave is creating catastrophe. It all started in April. Vaccine was released in March and the second shot in April. Vaccination in theory says that a controlled virus in the vaccine gives immunity. But now they are saying vaccine cannot prevent any mutations or can only protect upto 80-90 %. They even say vaccinated people may be asymptomatic carriers but it "protects" them. So when people say that vaccines can only protect so much, it also means that those who are vaccinated are asymptomatic (another "scientific" word) carriers of the virus and can infect any people they are in touch with.

I'm talking of cases about old people I know who are admitted to hospitals and their relatives talk like the nonsense on the idiot box. It seems the old people who are in critical condition right now and those who haven't been vaccinated have to fear the vaccinated people more than the normal people since this was not an issue for almost a year. If the virus was reported to be as bad as claimed when it came out at the end of 2019, it should have killed us all by 2020 but it is far worse in 2021 after the vaccine was released. Does anyone see the connection. Lets discuss or leave me with your hateful comments below

 

[ravishingravi]

I don’t know about vaccination and it’s impact. But I do know that early results in Chile and Israel show that vaccine is no one stop solution. Natural immunity might still trump immunity from vaccine. I don’t know. But we need a combination. In India, unintentionally we get there. 
 

You inference could be causation correlation error. I am putting my hand up to say I don’t know. All I know for sure is that once you look at hard data, the overwhelming majority is recovering or not feeling any symptoms. 

[jf1gp_1]

1 hour ago, ravishingravi said:

I don’t know about vaccination and it’s impact. But I do know that early results in Chile and Israel show that vaccine is no one stop solution. Natural immunity might still trump immunity from vaccine. I don’t know. But we need a combination. In India, unintentionally we get there. 
 

You inference could be causation correlation error. I am putting my hand up to say I don’t know. All I know for sure is that once you look at hard data, the overwhelming majority is recovering or not feeling any symptoms. 

Might not be high but you some % reinfection cases as well. I dont know how long natural immunity will last, vaccine plus annual shots is the only way forward. My however concern is I have not unfortunately seen people needing critical care post 1st shot. Yes i know one needs both shots but dying despite one shot is not what i was expecting. I personally do not know anyone who had serious symptoms post 2nd shot so there is hope. 

[ravishingravi]

45 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said:

Might not be high but you some % reinfection cases as well. I dont know how long natural immunity will last, vaccine plus annual shots is the only way forward. My however concern is I have not unfortunately seen people needing critical care post 1st shot. Yes i know one needs both shots but dying despite one shot is not what i was expecting. I personally do not know anyone who had serious symptoms post 2nd shot so there is hope. 

 

There are people dying after two shots too. But this needs deeper study and understanding. We will need another year. 

 

The case for natural immunity seems to be Chicken pox. In India, we never had any traction for vaccines for chicken pox, maybe we had some for measles / mumps. 

 

The other case is annual flu. I think it will be clear once the data is out, but one theory is that because we dont take the flu shot every year, body is more used to combating invading viruses. 

 

I am pushing people for vaccine. But I dont think everyone should do it. 40-50% is more than enough. We need to have base with natural immunity also. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

6 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

There are people dying after two shots too.

Because they may get complacent and get infected before the shots have time to work fully (2-3 week incubation).

[ravishingravi]

Just now, BacktoCricaddict said:

Because they may get complacent and get infected before the shots have time to work fully (2-3 week incubation).

That’s what I suspect. But we need more data. Plus pre-conditions. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

8 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

Natural immunity might still trump immunity from vaccine

Where are you seeing this?

 

As for this:

 

8 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

vaccine is no one stop solution.

 

only answer is:

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

Israel:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-israel-results-ins-idUSKBN2AA0MS

 

 

India:  As of Mar 31, 65 million out of 1300 million had been vaccinated.  Let's say it was double that by Apr 15.  So, let's overestimate and say 130 million vaccinated.  So, 1170 million still not vaccinated.  This also includes single doses.  Unless someone can provide data for India like the above Israeli data above, it is meaningless to say that vaccines are causing the spike in cases.  

Edited May 5, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, ravishingravi said:

But we need more data

See Israel data above.  76 people had contracted covid 7 days after 2nd dose.  Almost none after 2 weeks.  Absolutely none after 22 days.  The data are there.   People just don't bother to propagate it and/or believe it and/or stay cautious for 2-3 weeks.     

 

[Vilander]

11 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

I have been watching over the last year. The first wave in India had absolutely no effect but the second wave is creating catastrophe. It all started in April. Vaccine was released in March and the second shot in April. Vaccination in theory says that a controlled virus in the vaccine gives immunity. But now they are saying vaccine cannot prevent any mutations or can only protect upto 80-90 %. They even say vaccinated people may be asymptomatic carriers but it "protects" them. So when people say that vaccines can only protect so much, it also means that those who are vaccinated are asymptomatic (another "scientific" word) carriers of the virus and can infect any people they are in touch with.

I'm talking of cases about old people I know who are admitted to hospitals and their relatives talk like the nonsense on the idiot box. It seems the old people who are in critical condition right now and those who haven't been vaccinated have to fear the vaccinated people more than the normal people since this was not an issue for almost a year. If the virus was reported to be as bad as claimed when it came out at the end of 2019, it should have killed us all by 2020 but it is far worse in 2021 after the vaccine was released. Does anyone see the connection. Lets discuss or leave me with your hateful comments below

 

 

Dude vaccines are confirmed to be the best available method to combat this virus. Please get vaccinated and get as many vaccinated as possible in your circle. 

[ravishingravi]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

See Israel data above.  76 people had contracted covid 7 days after 2nd dose.  Almost none after 2 weeks.  Absolutely none after 22 days.  The data are there.   People just don't bother to propagate it and/or believe it and/or stay cautious for 2-3 weeks.     

 

Actually I wouldn’t generalize it for all “people”. I would always encourage healthy critique and skepticism. Fastest rollout of vaccine in recorded history with data available for very short timeline. Yes, it is working in Israel and way to go for now. But neither you or I know what twists and turns await in coming months. 
 

So I would take the vaccine without thinking any further. But I don’t think one should pull down any differing data based view point. And yes, to say not enough data or not enough times is also data based view point. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

 

 

 

 

Well.

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

 

 

 

 

Well.

 

First link:  Antigenic sin, definitely something to look at.  Great find, Jimmy Cliff.  But even there, Dr. Vashishta is saying that a few weeks after vaccination, it is not an issue. 

 

Second link:  Natural herd immunity is great if you're not among the 1000s dying.  We live in a society where we try to protect the vulnerable.  Dr. Birdle says "I am in a low-risk demographic."  Well, good for you, dude.  The rest of us will get vaccinated.  Good thing we didn't wait for the perfect, all-encompassing vaccine that will 100% neutralize all possible variants forever.  

Edited May 5, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[Vilander]

9 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

There are people dying after two shots too.

Where which variants any further info? 

[BacktoCricaddict]

10 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Where which variants any further info? 

None of these seemed be tracked very well.  Which vaccine in each case?  Which variant in each case?  1st dose?  2nd dose?  How many days after dose?  Masked?  Not masked?  Activity levels?  Takes a lot of honest effort to record the data thoroughly.  

 

Right now ... mostly anecdotal.  I just heard from a friend whose sister went to the mall in BLR without a mask 4 days after her first dose.  Now in ICU.  No one told her to stay put for a couple of weeks after the 2nd dose before "going back to normal."   Easy to blame the vaccine.    

Edited May 5, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

The data are there. 

There's not enough data, that's a fact. Even in the US Moderna is emerging the best in terms of preventing severe complications from Covid & AFAIK zero deaths from Pfizer+Moderna (post vaccination for people contracted Covid) thus far.

[BacktoCricaddict]

13 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

There's not enough data, that's a fact. Even in the US Moderna is emerging the best in terms of preventing severe complications from Covid & AFAIK zero deaths from Pfizer+Moderna (post vaccination for people contracted Covid) thus far.

And a good part of the reason for that - in my experience - has been clear communication about the timeline.  These vaccines have also been found to be effective against the SA and UK variants.  

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Right now ... mostly anecdotal.  I just heard from a friend whose sister went to the mall in BLR without a mask 4 days after her first dose.  Now in ICU.  No one told her to stay put for a couple of weeks after the 2nd dose before "going back to normal."   Easy to blame the vaccine.    

unfortunate.. its takes close to 20 days for vaccine to protect the individual provided they are not the other 25% or 5 % respectively for first and second dose.

[Vilander]

4 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Good thing we didn't wait for the perfect, all-encompassing vaccine that will 100% neutralize all possible variants forever.  

vaccinate early.. improve vaccine.. vaccinate as often as needed to ensure maximum possible protection to maximum possible population.

 

There should be Covid ministries, covid control departments, covid vaccination service, employed specialized covid workers... from now till eternity basically. 

 

Once covid become endemic in rest of the world.. people who are symptom less should be enlisted in a secret department for china engagement as well.. 

 

ok last line might be written in anger. 

[Real McCoy]

8 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

None of these seemed be tracked very well.  Which vaccine in each case?  Which variant in each case?  1st dose?  2nd dose?  How many days after dose?  Masked?  Not masked?  Activity levels?  Takes a lot of honest effort to record the data thoroughly.  

 

Right now ... mostly anecdotal.  I just heard from a friend whose sister went to the mall in BLR without a mask 4 days after her first dose.  Now in ICU.  No one told her to stay put for a couple of weeks after the 2nd dose before "going back to normal."   Easy to blame the vaccine.    

I have heard of an elderly man with no BP, no health problems who took the shot on his son's insistence, got BP levels shoot through the roof, get a stroke, go to hospital, get diagnosed of covid and die within a few days. I'm pretty sure the vaccine gets the blame at least in this case.

9 hours ago, Vilander said:

 

Dude vaccines are confirmed to be the best available method to combat this virus. Please get vaccinated and get as many vaccinated as possible in your circle. 

Above is a good reason not to get the shot. Your advise is of good intentions and I see that but when you see this happen to a distant relative, it makes me skeptical