2021 Wimbledon

[Real McCoy]

3 hours ago, I6MTW said:

Best hope is someone inventing a time machine, bringing back 06-07 Federer here. Even 11 would do. 

 

Or magically giving Federer the body of a 24 year old . Whichever works. Same can be applied to Wawrinka, Delpo, Murray as well. 

I don't care about those things. I'm not worried about the record too. I have made peace with the fact that Nadal or Djokovic or both will surpass Federer. But if Federer was in the position of Nadalovic as in 5-6 years younger than them, it won't be this close as Federer would have ate them morning, noon and night.

[Gollum]

15 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

I don't care about those things. I'm not worried about the record too. I have made peace with the fact that Nadal or Djokovic or both will surpass Federer. But if Federer was in the position of Nadalovic as in 5-6 years younger than them, it won't be this close as Federer would have ate them morning, noon and night.

Or maybe older Nadal/Djokovic would have destroyed Federer mentally beyond point of recovery in his initial years (relatively he was a late bloomer) rendering any late career resurgence pointless in the slam count. We know how good Nadal was in his 20s, same with Nole in his 20s and 30s.

 

Federer was lucky he feasted on a bunch of cans in the 2000s, only Nadal was a threat who got the better of him on HC and even 2008 grass!!!!! 

 

Anyway Nadal has his weaknesses (game-wise and also numbers) but Nole?

Edited July 11, 2021 by Gollum

[I6MTW]

7 hours ago, Gollum said:

Or maybe older Nadal/Djokovic would have destroyed Federer mentally beyond point of recovery in his initial years (relatively he was a late bloomer) rendering any late career resurgence pointless in the slam count. We know how good Nadal was in his 20s, same with Nole in his 20s and 30s.

 

Federer was lucky he feasted on a bunch of cans in the 2000s, only Nadal was a threat who got the better of him on HC and even 2008 grass!!!!! 

 

Anyway Nadal has his weaknesses (game-wise and also numbers) but Nole?

Federer's era is still stronger than the era from 17-now.

 

Guys like Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Zverev, Berrettini are mentally weak and just don't have championship material.

 

Nalbandian, Ferrer, Davydenko, Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Gonzalez look like multi slam winners in comparison. Transport their primes in this era and they'll be winning left and right against post prime Djokovic.

 

Federer's era isn't as weak as this one. I agree from 11-14 it was the strongest period. But not from 15 onwards. 

 

Also, Federer is mentally weak compared to other big 3, but not rest of the field. A younger 25 year old Federer would beat a Nadal and Djokovic in their 30s.

 

All 3 in their primes would be a really exciting and close contest. 

 

As of now in terms of Numbers:

1) Djokovic

2) Federer

3) Nadal 

 

Despite choking/faltering in so many slams across different generations, Federer is the second greatest player of all time. Not too shabby, don't ya think? 

 

 

 

[Gollum]

2 hours ago, I6MTW said:

Federer's era is still stronger than the era from 17-now.

 

Guys like Tsitsipas, Medvedev, Zverev, Berrettini are mentally weak and just don't have championship material.

 

Nalbandian, Ferrer, Davydenko, Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, Gonzalez look like multi slam winners in comparison. Transport their primes in this era and they'll be winning left and right against post prime Djokovic.

Disagree, even peak Ferrer/Hewitt had no weapons to hurt this Djokovic, inferior to him in every aspect of the game except overhead smash. Gonzales had no BH so zero chance, Roddick lost his sharp FH post 2003 USO, weak BH and ROS, poor movement. Nalbandian could have won in his era as well, don't understand that guy's career. Davydenko good but not that good. Safin is one guy who could have dominated this Nole but he never had the drive to achieve his potential. 

Quote

Also, Federer is mentally weak compared to other big 3, but not rest of the field. A younger 25 year old Federer would beat a Nadal and Djokovic in their 30s.

Not so sure about that. Certainly not at RG/AO. In a hypothetical scenario imagine what 25 yo Nole/Nadal would have done against (20 yo) upcoming Federer, could have mentally destroyed him at the start itself which would have paid dividends for rest of their careers. 

Quote

Despite choking/faltering in so many slams across different generations, Federer is the second greatest player of all time. Not too shabby, don't ya think? 

No, not at all. 

 

Djokovic>Fed>Nadal is what I have been saying for more than a year now. What remains to be seen is how big a lead can Nole muster. If he gets to 400+ weeks as #1, triple Golden Career Masters, CYGS, 27-28 slams, maybe 1 or more ATP Finals, 8 year ending #1 etc. this era will be known as the Big 1 era. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Gollum

[Gollum]

With each passing day, gaining more respect for Stan. What he did against  peak/prime Nole across 3 different majors, balls of steel!!!!!

[Gollum]

@I6MTW another thing we must consider is the crowd factor. Never as hostile to Nadal except RG at the start, always adored Fed. With Nole, they are so antagonistic even when he plays nobodies. Cheering is fine but not jeering, and disturbing him during play, celebrating errors etc. Must be so difficult to play against the opponent as well as the crowd, true in any sport. USO 2015, Wimbledon 2019 saw some of the most disgraceful crowd behavior I can think of, any other player would have been reduced to tears. Nole deserves extra marks for having the ability to use that to fuel his determination even more. 

 

Fed had the crowd in his favor throughout his career except in Davis Cup, even in his SW19 matches against Brits it was marginally against him but never hostile. One time I saw him (somewhat) in a similar boat as Nole was the 2012 Olympics gold medal match against Murray, and we know how he crumbled that day. Not easy. Stats won't capture that....maybe Nole's experience as a kid from the NATO bombing days in Serbia, his childhood struggles etc. have given him a mental edge which tennis players from the West can never have. 

[Real McCoy]

11 hours ago, Gollum said:

Or maybe older Nadal/Djokovic would have destroyed Federer mentally beyond point of recovery in his initial years (relatively he was a late bloomer) rendering any late career resurgence pointless in the slam count. We know how good Nadal was in his 20s, same with Nole in his 20s and 30s.

 

Federer was lucky he feasted on a bunch of cans in the 2000s, only Nadal was a threat who got the better of him on HC and even 2008 grass!!!!! 

 

Anyway Nadal has his weaknesses (game-wise and also numbers) but Nole?

You seem like a master baiter Those "cans" Federer feasted on have more guts and balls than the new gen. One of those cans Roddick has a winning record v Djokovic and another can Davydenko has a winning record v Nadal. you're hyping Nadalovic too much. I now consider you a fed hater than just a novak fan. Federer's serve, forehand and his aggressive instincts were more prominent in the 00s. Nadalovic would have suffered the similar fate that post-30 Fed suffered

[Real McCoy]

4 hours ago, I6MTW said:

Federer's era isn't as weak as this one. I agree from 11-14 it was the strongest period. But not from 15 onwards. 

 

Also, Federer is mentally weak compared to other big 3, but not rest of the field. A younger 25 year old Federer would beat a Nadal and Djokovic in their 30s.

A lot of mental strength is also due to age. When a player gets older, he is not able to sustain the mental pressure in a mano a mano game like tennis. You could see this with Nadal in the clay swing. He was struggling mentally as well as physically. You could also see this in the SF Djok vs shapo. There were points where Djok made him hit one more ball and basically gave up and shapo hits an UE on a makeable volley.

Also a lot of "mental game" is related to defensive game and rallies. Federer who is used to finishing points early with aggressive game and hitting winners would appear weaker than these two in an era that has courts slowed down for rallies. It keeps the average fan interested than watching someone like Sampras, Edberg and Becker serve and volley. Anyone watching the game in the 90s don't know this new concept of mental game. Only thing that comes close to it is the 90s clay court and it had its own specialists.

[Gollum]

Concept of mental game in 90s?

 

Sampras was a mental giant

[Real McCoy]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Concept of mental game in 90s?

 

Sampras was a mental giant

He is but you putting djok over the pedestal is just

[I6MTW]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

@I6MTW another thing we must consider is the crowd factor. Never as hostile to Nadal except RG at the start, always adored Fed. With Nole, they are so antagonistic even when he plays nobodies. Cheering is fine but not jeering, and disturbing him during play, celebrating errors etc. Must be so difficult to play against the opponent as well as the crowd, true in any sport. USO 2015, Wimbledon 2019 saw some of the most disgraceful crowd behavior I can think of, any other player would have been reduced to tears. Nole deserves extra marks for having the ability to use that to fuel his determination even more. 

 

Fed had the crowd in his favor throughout his career except in Davis Cup, even in his SW19 matches against Brits it was marginally against him but never hostile. One time I saw him (somewhat) in a similar boat as Nole was the 2012 Olympics gold medal match against Murray, and we know how he crumbled that day. Not easy. Stats won't capture that....maybe Nole's experience as a kid from the NATO bombing days in Serbia, his childhood struggles etc. have given him a mental edge which tennis players from the West can never have. 

This whole crowd is agaisnt Djokovic is blown out of proportion, yea I agree sometimes like USO 15 and other occasions it has . But in this year's AO, FO, and W crowd was mostly cheering for Djokovic, except when an underdog won a set, they would shift their cheers for him. I agree Djokovic has lesser support than Fedal, but still he is more supported and loved than any other tennis player in the world.

 

Also regarding players from Fed's gen. Hewitt pushed Nadal to 4 at RG in 06. And also won against Federer several times before Fed reached his peak. Hewitt and Ferrer don't have major weapons but they are consistent at everything they do, and they would beat a Djokovic in his mid 30s in rallies and groundgame. Plus they had great ROS as well, Djokovic would never get away with second serves like the one's he used against Berrettini. They had better chances than Berrettini and Tsitsipas in finals. Also better mental strength. 

Roddick is a better version of Berrettini. He had a better FH-Serve combo, decent movement, and a better BH as well. You are talking about declined Roddick, I am talking about in his prime.  All of the players I'm mentioning in their primes. Roddick declined sharply  after 2009-10. He was still great from 04-10, he was denied several times by Federer, including his peak performance in W 09.

 

Nalbandian also was stopped by Federer as well as Hewitt etc. Nalbandian without any competition and only Djokovic in this era, would be thriving despite not having the work ethic or consistency.

 

Safin, I don't have to explain. Peak Safin in this era before the injury, would be beating Djokovic.

 

Davydenko has a winning H2H record over Nadal and also even troubled him on clay, had he faced him in 06 RG final we might have seen a different winner that day. 

 

Also @ Gonzalez not having a BH. Delpo lost his BH after 10 and he still beat Djokovic and troubled him several times including Rome 19, he famous W 13, etc. 

The only weak player from Fed's era was Baghdatis, and even he seems better than Anderson or Berrettini as slam finalists. Berrettini seems like a poorer version of Raonic or Roddick. 

 

Even Agassi from 03-05 would play well with Djokovic. Despite him benefitting most from a weak era i.e 00-03 where you had random slam winners which I can't even name.

 

Guys like Kuerten and JCF who declined just before Fed hit his prime are also great players. 

 

Mid 30s Nadal and Djokovic would not mentally scar prime Federer. Especially not Nadal if Fed had made the racquet change. Fed figured out Nadal after 14. And Prime Federer would win the exchanges agaisnt Djokovic. You saw what Fed did in 11 against the best version of Djokovic ever in FO 11, and nearly in USO 11. A younger Federer with better fitness and mentally fresh would not choke as much. Most of the chokes happens as Fed reached his late 20s to early 30s.

 

He came back from many sets down multiple times , he also has the record for most MPs saved, even though the record for MPs wasted also stands. But most of them like I said, are either in his early days before he reached his prime, or in his late 20s-30s.

 

Nadal benefitted from a weaker clay era as well. 

[nevada]

1 hour ago, Real McCoy said:

You seem like a master baiter Those "cans" Federer feasted on have more guts and balls than the new gen. One of those cans Roddick has a winning record v Djokovic and another can Davydenko has a winning record v Nadal. you're hyping Nadalovic too much. I now consider you a fed hater than just a novak fan. Federer's serve, forehand and his aggressive instincts were more prominent in the 00s. Nadalovic would have suffered the similar fate that post-30 Fed suffered

Another notable name from that era is Safin - against whom Djokovic has a losing H2H as well. Djokovic won the AO in 2008 but lost at Wimbledon to Safin.

Young Hewitt destroyed Pete Sampras in straight sets at the 2001 USO and was #1 for a while despite absence of big weapons in his game. The present generation of melt-down mugs should not even be mentioned in the same breath as the players from Fed's youth. 

[Real McCoy]

3 minutes ago, nevada said:

Another notable name from that era is Safin - against whom Djokovic has a losing H2H as well. Djokovic won the AO in 2008 but lost at Wimbledon to Safin.

Young Hewitt destroyed Pete Sampras in straight sets at the 2001 USO and was #1 for a while despite absence of big weapons in his game. The present generation of melt-down mugs should not even be mentioned in the same breath as the players from Fed's youth. 

 

I read a stat which said players born in the 80s have won 70+ slams and those born in the 90s only 1. That was theim when he won when Djok got DQed. We all know how both him and zverev choked in the final. Even hewitt or anyone from 00s would have won against them

[coffee_rules]

https://www.deccanherald.com/sports/tennis/djokovic-has-time-and-momentum-on-his-side-to-become-greatest-tennis-player-of-all-time-1007733.html
 

Cal year Grand Slam after Rod Laver. This could happen in our lifetime. Will definitely cheer for Nole in USO

[Gollum]

6 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

He is but you putting djok over the pedestal is just

[Gollum]

Don't agree with you @I6MTW but admire the passion behind your posts. 

[I6MTW]

Just now, Gollum said:

Most MPs saved in matches- Federer

Now before you give the also most match points wasted excuse o have already given my take on it in the previous posts . Also Fed plays a low percentage aggressive tennis style which doesn't always succeed. He did better than most in history. Just ask Shapovalov what he's doing with similar playing styles. Same with Dimitrov. When you have such a style margins are always different. You go for your shots and try to paint lines etc 

 

[Gollum]

Good that Fed's tally will be overtaken by Nole. Imagine if it were Dull taking the crown

 

In the larger scheme of things Dull will be regarded as a filler between 2 titans, he had no era of his own. 

[I6MTW]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Don't agree with you @I6MTW but admire the passion behind your posts. 

Thanks. This is my take on things. 

 

I don't like Djokovic's playing style or his on court behaviour sometimes. But I'm okay with his off court stuff as a person. Though some of his views seem wrong to me. Overall he's a nice guy with some wrong views. 

 

I don't hate any tennis player for that matter. I find Nadal to be a nice guy as well. Even Federer. 

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, I6MTW said:

Most MPs saved in matches- Federer

Now before you give the also most match points wasted excuse o have already given my take on it in the previous posts . Also Fed plays a low percentage aggressive tennis style which doesn't always succeed. He did better than most in history. Just ask Shapovalov what he's doing with similar playing styles. Same with Dimitrov. When you have such a style margins are always different. You go for your shots and try to paint lines etc 

 

Nole too was a super aggressive baseliner in the early part of his career. Then he found the perfect balance between offence and defence, not that he can't play low % aggressive tennis.....he just finds the most efficient way to win, smartest player on tour.