It will be a great day for Indian cricket when the team moves away from playing spinners in SENA

[zen]

12 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

That thread discusses whether 2 spinners are needed.

This thread discusses whether we even need a spinner.

That thread is not discussing a spinner among the 4 specialist bowlers … If someone like Jadeja/Ashwin is in the squad, he will be discussed as the 5th bowler who could bat too … To support the 4 pacers, Ind can even play a specialist batsman who can bowl either pace or spin (depending upon his skill) as the 5th bowling option (also mentioned in the OP) if those options are available in the squad 

 

Therefore, can replace a Jadeja with a batsman who can bowl pace as well like Ganguly used too or a pace bowling AR for e.g. 

 

Do not need to have a mindset of trying to squeeze in a spinner, who have not won Ind much in SENA since 1990, for the sake of playing one. It would be a great day when India ditches these spinners for quality pace bowlers who can make a winning difference 

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[sensible-indian]

22 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

 

 

Absolutely 

all these look good when ur winning but wait till u loose and some good opposition batting sought this out and some will for sure ....high chance it will be Smith n co 

 

This may be the greatest theory but let it work over a considerable period of time against all challenges 

 

My fundamental issue is not even the 4 pacer template.

 

It's the fact that there is no process to assess our strengths & weaknesses and systematically test different combinations which will allow us to come to a fair conclusion.

 

If the test is done and this is the final output, I doubt many fans will object to it.

 

Issue is:

 

1. There is no accountability.

 

2. One day we will have one theory and next day, we will jump to another.

 

3. Wins (regardless of the opposition, situation) will dictate whether a theory has worked or not. Had this game swung the other way, the theory would have been discarded.

 

[sensible-indian]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

That thread is not discussing a spinner among the 4 specialist bowlers … If someone like Jadeja/Ashwin is in the squad, he will be discussed as the 5th bowler who could bat too … To support the 4 pacers, Ind can even play a specialist batsman who can bowl either pace or spin (depending upon his skill) as the 5th bowling option (also mentioned in the OP) if those options are available in the squad 

 

Therefore, can replace a Jadeja with a batsman who can bowl pace as well like Ganguly used too or a pace bowling AR for e.g. 

 

Do not need to have a mindset of trying to squeeze in a spinner, who have not won Ind much in SENA since 1990. It would be a great day when India ditches these spinners for quality pace bowlers that can make a winning difference 

I specifically remember you mentioning many many times we can have one spinner if the conditions requires one.

 

Here in this thread, you are talking about whether we even need any spinner.

[zen]

4 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I specifically remember you mentioning many many times we can have one spinner if the conditions requires one.

 

Here in this thread, you are talking about whether we even need any spinner.

As I said, look forward to the day when India goes without any spinner at all. Rather than play a sub par batsman-spinner in SENA, I would be happy to have a proper batsman who can roll his arm too if required (if pace even better!) or an inform pace bowling AR!

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[sensible-indian]

10 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Give me the facts. Which game is won by spinners? 

Oh sure.

 

Wins

 

1. 2018 Adelaide - Who did the donkeys work in the first innings bowling a gazzilion overs at 1.5 rpo and picked 3 wickets? And second innings wickets. Heck, the last wicket was picked by a spinner before Aus almost chased it down.

 

2. 2018 Melbourne - Jaddu bowled a ton of overs and chipped in with wickets.

 

3. 2020 Melbourne - No need for even an explanation.

 

These are three wins that have spinners playing a MAJOR role.

 

Let's look at other games which were drawn or lost.

 

1. 2018 Sydney - Kuldeep 5fer. Rain allowed Aus to escape.

 

2. 2020 Sydney - Jaddu 4fer prevented Aus from runing away with the game

 

3. 2018 Edgbaston - Ashwin picked a bunch of wickets both innings. A little bit of support and we would have won that.

 

4. 2020 Adelaide - Ashwin picked a 4fer. We got a lead only to get 36 all out.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, zen said:

As I said, look forward to the day when India goes without any spinner at all. Rather than play a sub par batsman-spinner in SENA, I would be happy to have a proper batsman who can roll his arm too if required (if pace even better!) or an inform pace bowling AR!

I know what you said mate.

 

Let's see how it pans out.

 

Right now, data contradicts your theory.

[zen]

9 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I know what you said mate.

 

Let's see how it pans out.

 

Right now, data contradicts your theory.

Note that Ind lost WTC with 2 spinners. Jadeja has been subpar both with the bat and the ball so far. Ind has a good set of pace bowlers now which has given Ind 2 sensational wins. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[sensible-indian]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Note that Ind lost WTC with 2 spinners. Jadeja has been subpar both with the bat and the ball so far. Ind has a good set of pace bowlers now.

See lets not conflate different issues:

 

1. 2 spinner debate is different from 1 spinner debate.

 

2. The same WTC final, one spinner looked more threatening than most pacers except one. He was brought on cos 3 pacers looked toothless on that pitch at first.

 

3. WTC loss isn't on spinners. Its on batsmen and pacers.

[zen]

4 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

See lets not conflate different issues:

 

1. 2 spinner debate is different from 1 spinner debate.

 

2. The same WTC final, one spinner looked more threatening than most pacers except one. He was brought on cos 3 pacers looked toothless on that pitch at first.

 

3. WTC loss isn't on spinners. Its on batsmen and pacers.

Looking threatening and actually having the ability to run through a side are two different things. A  4-5 pace bowlers attack gives a team more opportunities of 3-4 of them having a great game. With 3 pacers, if 1-2 do not click, it is like what happened in the WTC. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[sensible-indian]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

Looking threatening and actually having the ability to run through a side are two different things. A  4-5 pace bowlers attack gives a team more options of 2-3  of them having a great game. With 3 pacers, if 1-2 do not click, it is like what happened in the WTC. 

1. Spinner did pick up wickets. In the limited chances he got.

 

2. There is mountain of data that shows how much spinners have impacted the games. But lets disregard that and pick all pacers cos 1-2 pacers might have an offday. But no such liberty for spinners.

 

3. Even in Oval, Jaddu played a crucial role in scuffing the ball which allowed for reverse swing.

 

4. 4 pacers and one spinner is one thing....4 pacer and a pace bowling AR is a totally different thing.

 

5. I am not saying your theory cant work but its unproven and for now, data contradicts you.

Edited September 7, 2021 by sensible-indian

[zen]

7 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

1. Spinner did pick up wickets. In the limited chances he got.

 

2. There is mountain of data that shows how much spinners have impacted the games. But lets disregard that and pick all pacers cos 1-2 pacers might have an offday. But no such liberty for spinners.

 

3. Even in Oval, Jaddu played a crucial role in sciffing the ball which allowed for reverse swing.

 

4. 4 pacers and one spinner is one thing....4 pacer and a pace bowling AR is a totally different thing.

 

5. I am not saying your theory cant work but its unproven for now, data contradicts you.

Note that every teams loses wkts so just picking them is not an achievement. The ability to run through a side quickly is … With the quality of pacers that India has now, moving towards an all pace attack can provide relatively richer dividends … India’s win in SENA have been due to pacers in general post 1990 … If we have spinners of the quality of Warne (has won tests for his team in SENA), Murali (picked up 14-16 wkts in a test in Eng iirc) or Chandra (won Ind a test series in Eng), play them as they too can be as effective as many pace bowlers while providing variety 

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[urbestfriend]

Stupid thread...

 

SENA or not, it will be dependent on the pitch and if the pitch is flat, we always need a spinner to maintain overrate and exploit the wear and tear of the pitch..

Its not like we have never played without a spinner in test in the past in SENA...In Perth 2011 and 2018, we have gone with 4 pacers as that was a green pitch..So dont understand why not playing a spinner becomes a great day..

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Note that every teams loses wkts so just picking them is not an achievement. The ability to run through a side quickly is … With the quality of pacers that India has, moving towards an all pace attack will give relatively more rich dividends … India’s win in SENA have been due to pacers in general post 1990 … If we have spinners of the quality of Warne, Murali or Chandra play as they can be as effective as pace bowlers while providing variety 

 

1. Coming into the attack and pucking a wicket when all pacers flop is not an achievement. Picking 2 crucial wickets and putting pressure in 4th innings is not achievement.

 

2. The requirement is the ABILITY to run through a side. Ok. So how many of our pacers ran through a side in the last 4 games?

 

Very few or none.

 

3. Everyone chipped in with a few wickets. Agar pacer karenge tho teek hai...magar spinners shouldnt contribute to wins like that

They should take 5fers and win or else they are not needed.

 

Step 1 - Decide on the outcome.

 

Step 2 - Structure your argument accordingly.

 

Step 3 - Disregard any pesky data that comes in the way.

 

Thats what's happening.

 

Its fine if you believe it. Just be aware that it isnt the most logical choice.

 

[zen]

10 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

 

1. Coming into the attack and pucking a wicket when all pacers flop is not an achievement. Picking 2 crucial wickets and putting pressure in 4th innings is not achievement.

 

2. The requirement is the ABILITY to run through a side. Ok. So how many of our pacers ran through a side in the last 4 games?

 

Very few or none.

 

3. Everyone chipped in with a few wickets. Agar pacer karenge tho teek hai...magar spinners shouldnt contribute to wins like that

They should take 5fers and win or else they are not needed.

 

Step 1 - Decide on the outcome.

 

Step 2 - Structure your argument accordingly.

 

Step 3 - Disregard any pesky data that comes in the way.

 

Thats what's happening.

 

Its fine if you believe it. Just be aware that it isnt the most logical choice.

 

Pacers have won India two games in the series. Even a part time spinner like Vihari has picked up wkts in the past (avgs 26 in SENA iirc) but teams would not orient their bowling attack (called an attack for a reason) just on Vihari’s exploits.

Since India now has a good group of pace bowlers, along with pace bowling ARs, the discussion is on building a potent attack that will create winning opportunities in more games relatively (not every game which is unrealistic) in SENA in general.

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

Oh sure.

 

Wins

 

1. 2018 Adelaide - Who did the donkeys work in the first innings bowling a gazzilion overs at 1.5 rpo and picked 3 wickets? And second innings wickets. Heck, the last wicket was picked by a spinner before Aus almost chased it down.

 

2. 2018 Melbourne - Jaddu bowled a ton of overs and chipped in with wickets.

 

3. 2020 Melbourne - No need for even an explanation.

 

These are three wins that have spinners playing a MAJOR role.

 

Let's look at other games which were drawn or lost.

 

1. 2018 Sydney - Kuldeep 5fer. Rain allowed Aus to escape.

 

2. 2020 Sydney - Jaddu 4fer prevented Aus from runing away with the game

 

3. 2018 Edgbaston - Ashwin picked a bunch of wickets both innings. A little bit of support and we would have won that.

 

4. 2020 Adelaide - Ashwin picked a 4fer. We got a lead only to get 36 all out.

 

 

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Spinners have won us nothing overseas.

 

1. yea sure smith wud hve let u won last aussie series without ashwin , even in last test one innings he was dismissed by sundar

Ashwin was our 2nd highest wkt taker in that series with better avg n eco then siraj who was our highest wkt taker by 1 wkt (both played equal games)................place not meant for finger spinner. Out of 8 innings he was dismissed just 2 times 

 

Sundar in one game took as many wkts as umesh in 2 games

 

2. Ashwin won u 2016 Wi series.............the 2nd highest wkt taker shami was 6 wkts away ..........unless u dnt consider WI overseas
17 ashwin
11 shami (that was the diff)

 

3. 2018 Border gavaskar

1st test ashwin had 6 wkts out of 20

3rd test jaddu had 5 out of 20

 

4. Who won u headingly 2002 ?? bhajji kumble 11 out of 20 

 

5. Adeilade 2003 - kumble had a fifer in 1st innings 

 

6. Nottingham 2007 , kumble had 7 wkts 

 

7. bhajji 6 wkts in 2010 win in Sa 

 

 

Really nothing, Nothinggg

forget all ....u wnt have won in Aus this time if not for ashwin 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[sensible-indian]

7 minutes ago, zen said:

Pacers have won India two games in the series. Even a part time spinner like Vihari has picked up wkts (avgs 26 in SENA iirc) but teams would not orient their bowling attack (called an attack for a reason) on Vihari’s exploits.

The discussion is on building a potent attack that will create winning opportunities in more games relatively (not every game which is unrealistic) in SENA in general.

Sure lets use any and every stat as long as it supports our needed view.

 

1. Upul chandana averages great in Aus. Hes so much better than Murali who averaged 70. Defo better than that Swann hack.

 

2. Vihari bowls tidy offspin. He came in and picked up some wickets when Root and Cook wanted to score off him. He only gets to bowl rarely so that 26 average will never balloon to 126. Lets use that argument to discard spinners who bowl all day long.

 

Why stop there.

 

3. Bumrah averages more than Rahane this series. Lets drop Rahane and play Bumrah as a batsman.

 

4. Your last point is the main discussion. You feel pure pace attack will win more. Others feel pace attack with proper spinner will win more. For now, the latter is proven while the former is unproven. Time will tell.

Edited September 7, 2021 by sensible-indian

[zen]

6 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Sure lets use any and every stat as long as it supports our needed view.

 

1. Upul chandana averages great in Aus. Hes so much better than Murali who averaged 70. Defo better than that Swann hack.

 

2. Vihari bowls tidy offspin. He came in and picked up some wickets when Root and Cook wanted to score off him. He only gets to bowl rarely so that 26 average will never balloon to 126.

 

Lets use that argument to discard spinners.

 

Why stop there.

 

3. Bumrah averages more than Rahane this series. Lets drop Rahane and play Bumrah as a batsman.

 

4. Your last point is the main discussion. You feel pure pace attack will win more. Others feel pace attack with proper spinner will win more. For now, the latter is proven while the gormer is unproven. Time will tell.

It is about making the right call based on resources at hand at the given point in time.
 

Anyone can pick up wkts, it is how quickly you pick them that matters and therefore building an attack that gives a team more chances of doing that. 
 

Throughout the history of game, there have been only a handful of quality spinners. Most like the majority of Indian spinners rely heavily on spin friendly pitches. There is no proven or unproven here.

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[rkt.india]

47 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Oh sure.

 

Wins

 

1. 2018 Adelaide - Who did the donkeys work in the first innings bowling a gazzilion overs at 1.5 rpo and picked 3 wickets? And second innings wickets. Heck, the last wicket was picked by a spinner before Aus almost chased it down.

 

2. 2018 Melbourne - Jaddu bowled a ton of overs and chipped in with wickets.

 

3. 2020 Melbourne - No need for even an explanation.

 

These are three wins that have spinners playing a MAJOR role.

 

Let's look at other games which were drawn or lost.

 

1. 2018 Sydney - Kuldeep 5fer. Rain allowed Aus to escape.

 

2. 2020 Sydney - Jaddu 4fer prevented Aus from runing away with the game

 

3. 2018 Edgbaston - Ashwin picked a bunch of wickets both innings. A little bit of support and we would have won that.

 

4. 2020 Adelaide - Ashwin picked a 4fer. We got a lead only to get 36 all out.

 

 

Sydney, Adelaide, Edgbaston are the most spin friendly tracks in those countries. You expect spinners to do well there. Despite that, seamers are picking majority of the wickets. Like in India, spinners pick 15 wickets and pacers 4-5. Credit for win is given to spinners, not seamers. Let me know when they pick 14-15 wickets inna test overseas. Until they are just supporting caste.

[Ankit_sharma03]

52 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

My fundamental issue is not even the 4 pacer template.

neither do - if its bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Ishant and conditions are like SA im fine

But u cant be stubborn with a theory ..............u need to see opp, conditions, pitches ......

 

I hve a problem with this theory when it goes to an extent that we start playing anybody for 4 seamers . Im not a beilever that spinners are just for overrate overseas.....pace n spin go together coz once a batsman gets use to one aspect test him with other . Aussies will never drop lyon and they didnt last ashes . They rotates starc, pattinson, siddle but never dropped lyon

 

Overseas conditions have bounce something spinners always like and then 1st day moisture which ashwin likes . 

 

If you dont have a great spinner ill go with pacer rather going with someone one avg but when u have one then use him 

[sensible-indian]

1 minute ago, zen said:

It is about making the right call based on resources at hand at the given point in time.
 

Anyone can pick up wkts, it is how quickly you pick them that matters and therefore building an attack that gives a team more chances of doing that. 
 

Throughout the history of game, there have been only a handful of quality spinners. Most like the majority of Indian spinners rely heavily on spin friendly pitches. There is nothing unproven.

Yes our spinners never picked up improtant wickets or got them quickly.

 

Lets forget any match where that has happened even if the matches have been listed out in this very thread.

 

Life is so much simpler.