It will be a great day for Indian cricket when the team moves away from playing spinners in SENA

[zen]

As I have maintained, India should focus on playing 4 pacers (a good group of pace bowlers to pick from). Because of playing four pacers, who work well as a group, India has notched up two sensational wins in Eng in 2021. Spin is not being missed at all and specialist spinners should only come in if conditions favor spin big time. 

 

I look forward to the day when India goes in with zero spinners in SENA. If one of the 6 playing mostly for their batting roll their arm over for spin (or even additional pace with no spinner), that should be ok. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by zen

[Serpico]

And what if the pitch is flat? Bowl the quicks into the ground? Its better to keep all bases covered. Unless we know beforehand that pitches will be completely seeming and match will be over in 3 days

[Serpico]

I don't mind all seem attack in nz since its just 2 matches and they don't play spinners either

[rkt.india]

A spin bowling alrounder is required to maintain the over rate. 

[New guy]

9 hours ago, zen said:

As I have maintained, India should focus on playing 4 pacers (a good group of pace bowlers to pick from). Because of playing four pacers, who work well as a group, India has notched up two sensational wins in Eng in 2021. Spin is not being missed at all and specialist spinners should only come in if conditions favor spin big time. 

 

I look forward to the day when India goes in with zero spinners in SENA. If one of the 6 playing mostly for their batting roll their arm over for spin (or even additional pace with no spinner), that should be ok. 

Even in the most swinging, seaming wicket, there will be 1 or 2 fast  bowlers who take 0 or 1/2 wickets in whole match(like siraj this match, etc).

 

A spin bowler can do same or better, while bowling more overs, improving over rates, providing more variety and giving more rest to seamers (eg jadeja continously bowling through the day allowed Bumrah etc to go all out)

Edited September 7, 2021 by New guy

[Jamadagni]

13 minutes ago, New guy said:

Even in the most swinging, seaming wicket, there will be 1 or 2 fast  bowlers who take 0 or 1/2 wickets in whole match(like siraj this match, etc).

 

A spin bowler can do same or better, while bowling more overs, improving over rates, providing more variety and giving more rest to seamers (eg jadeja continously bowling through the day allowed Bumrah etc to go all out)

Exactly that's the reason why we should play 4 pacers. In hindsight, you can say Siraj was ineffective and a spinner should have played. But it could have been some other pacer. That's why it's important to play 4 pacers and hope 2-3 of them find their groove in the match. 

[New guy]

5 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

Exactly that's the reason why we should play 4 pacers. In hindsight, you can say Siraj was ineffective and a spinner should have played. But it could have been some other pacer. That's why it's important to play 4 pacers and hope 2-3 of them find their groove in the match. 

We did have 4 pacers in this match yet depended more on jadeja throughout the 4th inninga than 3 and 4th seamer. 1 spinner > 4th pacer

[zen]

2 hours ago, New guy said:

Even in the most swinging, seaming wicket, there will be 1 or 2 fast  bowlers who take 0 or 1/2 wickets in whole match(like siraj this match, etc).

 

A spin bowler can do same or better, while bowling more overs, improving over rates, providing more variety and giving more rest to seamers (eg jadeja continously bowling through the day allowed Bumrah etc to go all out)

nonsense!
 

Edited September 7, 2021 by zen

[rollingstoned]

in theory the 4 pacers template is the right one but we don't need to sacrifice a strength of ours which clearly sets us apart from these SENA teams just because it may seem like spinners will not be a factor. Even for a holding job they are worth it. Your attack will suffer from a sameness unless the pitch is a green mamba where par score is 200.

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, New guy said:

We did have 4 pacers in this match yet depended more on jadeja throughout the 4th inninga than 3 and 4th seamer. 1 spinner > 4th pacer

That is why you play 4 pacers. So that you have cover if one seamer has an off day. When you play 3 seamers even then you will most times have one seamer having off day. A seamer even then will put pressure unless he is leaking runs. Like Siraj even if he didn't pick wickets he was consistently asking questions, putting them under pressure. If there is no help, spinners become liability.

[express bowling]

In tests outside Asia .... 

 

4 pacers which include a bowling all-rounder 

 

+

 

1 spinner who can bat too.

 

This is ideal.

 

4 pacers a must ... but 1 spinner is needed for the 4th innings too.

[Serpico]

There's a lot of recency bias in this thread. People forget that we played 4 pacers in sena in 2018 too and lost 4 out of 6 matches. And then won 2 series in Australia with 3 pacers. What changed between 2018 and 2021 is we have much better openers now. (and better medium pace all-rounder).

 

If Thakur is injured, I don't think 4 pace strategy is viable. Maybe time to also pick Vijay Shankar in the squad as a backup

[sensible-indian]

Now that we have won, all these theories will look like genius moves.

 

1. First of all, to be perfectly fair, 4 pacers does give Indian team great flexibility. If one has an off-day, others can make up for it.

 

2. Second of all, 4 pacer concept is NOTHING new. 3 pacers + 1 pace AR + 1 spinner is what teams usually play on SENA. This time we went with 4 out and out pacers (except when Thakur was unavailable). Kohli's template is a new twist to an old method. Only difference is we play a spinner (Jaddu) to boost the batting. Thats it.

 

3. Thirdly, the problem starts when you are up on a pitch which does very little and you have 4 pacers and zero spinners. Very easy to bowl them into the ground. I wonder how come we talk about 4 pacers and 5 bowlers in conditions like Eng and come tour of Aus, we pick 4 bowlers and rely on the spinner to do the donkey's work of sealing one end up. Cos if you bowl 4 pacers there without a spinner, chances of them breaking down are pretty high.

 

4. In Oval, Kohli took a gamble and won. There were sooo many instances where he could have lost and it would have looked foolish. Heck, if the ball didn't reverse on the last day, Eng probably would have escaped. Yes, Jaddu bowling in the rough helped it reverse but its not like that would have been predicted. When it starts reversing, you honestly don't need any spinners. Pacers will finish the game.

 

Sometimes right approach used in the wrong way resulting in victories leads you to make more mistakes in the future.

 

In the history of cricket, only one team has made it work with a pace battery without spinners (WI) and that too in an era where there were no strict over-rates to be followed.

 

Would love to see how this theory pans out in the long run.

 

For now, it will work against the woeful batting lineups of Eng and even SA.

 

The moment you are up against a lineup that is ready to dig in & fight....that's when this theory (4 pacers and 0 spinners) will actually be put to the test.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by sensible-indian

[rkt.india]

12 minutes ago, Serpico said:

There's a lot of recency bias in this thread. People forget that we played 4 pacers in sena in 2018 too and lost 4 out of 6 matches. And then won 2 series in Australia with 3 pacers. What changed between 2018 and 2021 is we have much better openers now. (and better medium pace all-rounder).

 

If Thakur is injured, I don't think 4 pace strategy is viable. Maybe time to also pick Vijay Shankar in the squad as a backup

We didn't have Bumrah in two tests. He was also a rookie. Shami wasn't that good overseas.

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

 

Quote

For now, it will work against the woeful batting lineups of Eng and even SA.

 

The moment you are up against a lineup that is ready to dig in & fight....that's when this theory (4 pacers and 0 spinners) will actually be put to the test.

 

 

 

Absolutely 

all these look good when ur winning but wait till u loose and some good opposition batting sought this out and some will for sure ....high chance it will be Smith n co 

 

This may be the greatest theory but let it work over a considerable period of time against all challenges 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[zen]

37 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Now that we have won, all these theories will look like genius moves.

It has been discussed in one way or the other before:

 

 

[rkt.india]

44 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Now that we have won, all these theories will look like genius moves.

 

1. First of all, to be perfectly fair, 4 pacers does give Indian team great flexibility. If one has an off-day, others can make up for it.

 

2. Second of all, 4 pacer concept is NOTHING new. 3 pacers + 1 pace AR + 1 spinner is what teams usually play on SENA. This time we went with 4 out and out pacers (except when Thakur was unavailable). Kohli's template is a new twist to an old method. Only difference is we play a spinner (Jaddu) to boost the batting. Thats it.

 

3. Thirdly, the problem starts when you are up on a pitch which does very little and you have 4 pacers and zero spinners. Very easy to bowl them into the ground. I wonder how come we talk about 4 pacers and 5 bowlers in conditions like Eng and come tour of Aus, we pick 4 bowlers and rely on the spinner to do the donkey's work of sealing one end up. Cos if you bowl 4 pacers there without a spinner, chances of them breaking down are pretty high.

 

4. In Oval, Kohli took a gamble and won. There were sooo many instances where he could have lost and it would have looked foolish. Heck, if the ball didn't reverse on the last day, Eng probably would have escaped. Yes, Jaddu bowling in the rough helped it reverse but its not like that would have been predicted. When it starts reversing, you honestly don't need any spinners. Pacers will finish the game.

 

Sometimes right approach used in the wrong way resulting in victories leads you to make more mistakes in the future.

 

In the history of cricket, only one team has made it work with a pace battery without spinners (WI) and that too in an era where there were no strict over-rates to be followed.

 

Would love to see how this theory pans out in the long run.

 

For now, it will work against the woeful batting lineups of Eng and even SA.

 

The moment you are up against a lineup that is ready to dig in & fight....that's when this theory (4 pacers and 0 spinners) will actually be put to the test.

 

 

Spinners have won us nothing overseas.

[sensible-indian]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Spinners have won us nothing overseas.

Not true.

 

But carry on.

[sensible-indian]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

It has been discussed in one way or the other before:

 

 

That thread discusses whether 2 spinners are needed.

This thread discusses whether we even need a spinner.

[rkt.india]

6 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Not true.

 

But carry on.

Give me the facts. Which game is won by spinners? 

Edited September 7, 2021 by rkt.india