maniac Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) It’s not bowling, power hitting, safe/quick starts- (won’t matter) but middle order batting is what will win the tournament. Team that has the most inform middle order will win. These are still bowling conditions minus the dew. It’s not like teams are chasing totals in 10 overs, most matches will go to the wire with moderate totals. Blazing starts or consolidated starts won’t matter because it becomes difficult after powerplay even for well set openers unless it is really pedestrian bowling. These are 120-180 (max) pitches and by the time of knockouts 140 might be a winning total. Our debate has been misdirected towards allrounders/6th bowler/openers/opening bowlers etc but middle order that’s what will win you the cup. Bring on the hate but leave alone when they are out of form but guys like Kishen/Sky/Pant/Pandya don’t have that control even when they look in prime touch and smacking everything. They look like they can get out any moment. The only guy on current form has that control is Rahul but he comes across as a mental midget. Kohli, Rohit at their peak had that ability but they seem to be past their prime. By control I mean respect the good ball and rotate the strike or maybe play out a bowler safely (don’t have to block but look for 1/2) who is looking deadly to take advantage of the next guy because you are set and don’t want to throw away the momentum to the bowler. I don’t see any such ability in any of these.They have 0 presence of mind based on my observation so far. Any way enough about our team but watch out for the best middle order in the tournament and bet on it. Shortcut to $$$ Edited October 28, 2021 by maniac Try_Ball and diehardpacer 2
Try_Ball Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 I agree, Aussie and England do have a decent middle order and they have done well with them. We are top heavy and the middle order just doesn't have that acceleration , If Pakistani openers are also taken out early - would love to see how they end up doing maniac 1
maniac Posted October 29, 2021 Author Posted October 29, 2021 Bump. Asif Ali seems to be in some great touch
vvvslaxman Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 This i knew. India has to restructure the balance. Load up the side with great hitters from 1 to 7. Also have bowling all rounders who can tonk theball. Thakur/Deepak should always play together. Bumrah is the lone exception. Needs atleast 9 batsmen who can strike the ball. This exercise should have begun long back. Every single time at the last minute they pick up an average squad like we did in 2019. Lord 1
Suhaan Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 Pointing out peak of Pant,Kishan at this point of time is like talking about peak Rohit in 2011-12 Problem lies at the top,patta/no patta ,swing/no swing these guys always create problems for this side in crucial matches,leave a mountain to climb for the middle order zen 1
Lord Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 18 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: This i knew. India has to restructure the balance. Load up the side with great hitters from 1 to 7. Also have bowling all rounders who can tonk theball. Thakur/Deepak should always play together. Bumrah is the lone exception. Needs atleast 9 batsmen who can strike the ball. This exercise should have begun long back. Every single time at the last minute they pick up an average squad like we did in 2019. sounds great in theory but kahan se ayenge ye sab.
vvvslaxman Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 20 minutes ago, Lord said: sounds great in theory but kahan se ayenge ye sab. They have to take risks. No risk. No reward. Sure not all the guys may or may not come good in the long run. But they must start somewhere. We can continue tweaking this as we go along based on form , availability of new players. Venky Iyer ( mainly for his bowling ability not just batting. If he is a pure batsman we won't need him). Kishan Kohli Rahul Rohit Pant Jadeja ( compromising choice ) Thakur Deepak chahar Chahar/Chahal/Varun Bumrah This gives us 9 batsmen. 6 bowlers. Useless pandya cannot be part of the side with no overs
Lord Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: They have to take risks. No risk. No reward. Sure not all the guys may or may not come good in the long run. But they must start somewhere. We can continue tweaking this as we go along based on form , availability of new players. Venky Iyer ( mainly for his bowling ability not just batting. If he is a pure batsman we won't need him). Kishan Kohli Rahul Rohit Pant Jadeja ( compromising choice ) Thakur Deepak chahar Chahar/Chahal/Varun Bumrah This gives us 9 batsmen. 6 bowlers. Useless pandya cannot be part of the side with no overs you want hitters from 1-7 but select Rohit,Kohli (Rahul is borderline). Thakur was needed yes. Spinners are same as now. No. 9 is not gonna bat mostly so it's right to pick him for bowling zen and diehardpacer 1 1
vvvslaxman Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 Just now, Lord said: you want hitters from 1-7 but select Rohit,Kohli (Rahul is borderline). Thakur was needed yes. Spinners are same as now. No. 9 is not gonna bat mostly so it's right to pick him for bowling Right now they can't remove everyone. It is a start. Gradually they have to iterate this. There may be candidates who are exclusively fit for T20. They should be given a chance.
aditya19 Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 west indies supoosedly has strongest middle order, pollard,russel,hetmyer,pooran still strggling.
Lord Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said: Right now they can't remove everyone. It is a start. Gradually they have to iterate this. There may be candidates who are exclusively fit for T20. They should be given a chance. yeah was asking your team if we could remove everyone. You did pick Venky Iyer.
vvvslaxman Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Lord said: yeah was asking your team if we could remove everyone. You did pick Venky Iyer. Venky iyer is mainly in as a 6th bowling option. Lord 1
maniac Posted October 29, 2021 Author Posted October 29, 2021 Top 5 sides middle order Australia Smith Stoinis Maxwell Marsh Wade India Kohli Sky Pant Jadeja Pandya Nzl Williamson Neesham Conway Phillips Seifert Pak Zaman Hafeez Malik A.Ali Imad/Shadab Eng Livingstone Malan Bairstow Morgan M.Ali India doesn’t look as bad as I thought on paper but it definitely doesn’t look like a world beating side. Pak middle-order looks stronger because of the conditions as well. Put this middle-order outside subcontinent, it will look terrible but on these pitches as good as it gets. One middle-order compared to which, india looks way better is Newzealand solely on paper but then you need to take into account their tail that can slog and add valuable runs. Infact my list stops at 7 but all these teams have dangerous 8’s and 9’s as well. That makes our middle order and top order way more vulnerable.
zen Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 If segmenting the batting: Top (or upper) order = 1 to 3 Upper MO = 4 to 5 Lower MO = 6 to 7 (can add 8)
vvvslaxman Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 58 minutes ago, maniac said: Top 5 sides middle order Australia Smith Stoinis Maxwell Marsh Wade India Kohli Sky Pant Jadeja Pandya Nzl Williamson Neesham Conway Phillips Seifert Pak Zaman Hafeez Malik A.Ali Imad/Shadab Eng Livingstone Malan Bairstow Morgan M.Ali India doesn’t look as bad as I thought on paper but it definitely doesn’t look like a world beating side. Pak middle-order looks stronger because of the conditions as well. Put this middle-order outside subcontinent, it will look terrible but on these pitches as good as it gets. One middle-order compared to which, india looks way better is Newzealand solely on paper but then you need to take into account their tail that can slog and add valuable runs. Infact my list stops at 7 but all these teams have dangerous 8’s and 9’s as well. That makes our middle order and top order way more vulnerable. Importance of depth gives the confidence even to middle order to continue hitting not just top order. Unless the bowler is in the mould of Rashid khan (who can actually bat decently and field very well), Malinga, Bumrah or exceptional death bowler their batting potential must be an important criteria. Example (All current form) Bhuvanesh vs Deepak chahar Bowling Bhuvi = Deepak chahar (that is generous to bhuvi given that Chahar is a solid new ball bowler) Batting Deepak chahar > Bhuvi Overall Deepak Chahar Thakur vs Shami Bowling Shami > Thakur (marginally in some areas Thakur is better) Batting Thakur > Shami Overall Thakur Jaddu vs Sundar This is tricky. Sundar can bowl inside power play. This allows you to reserve seamers for death overs. Jadeja cannot do. Battingwise Jadeja is better even though he is mediocre only because Sundar is not explosive player more an attacking player. Not that Jadeja is. But Jadeja is good against certain lengths. Ofcourse Jaddu fielding is always great. Sundar is no slouch. But can't touch Jaddu in this area. Overall Jaddu Sundar is not that bad a wicket taker. But we need strike option. Otherwise we could play him in place of Varun. Kulcha were dream combo. Chahal was go to bowler for India in the beginning. Then he became go to bowler for the opposition. maniac 1
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