How many current players would make it to our All-time Indian Test XI?

[Jay]

Yousuf Younis will struggle vs umesh shami and bumrah who all average under 24 in India. Well bumrah does in A tours/first class but let's be honest, if the former 2 can average under 24, so can booms. 

 

Their reverse swing is potent and they have brutal bouncers. Being skiddy obviously helps. 

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

 

Not the best way to judge a bowler who had pretty much ZERO support from other end not just in foreign conditions but also at home because in 80s India's spin stocks were pretty much zero.

 

We can have Malcolm Marshall team up with Binnies and Sandhus and maninders and bowl year in and year out for a decade. With over half of his matches on unresponsive subcontinental pitches. I am not sure Marshall would come out with an average any better than Kapil.

 

Same for Srinath, although he luckily had some support at home in the form of Kumble. And it shows in his numbers in India.

 

Srinath and Kapil consistently bowled more balls per innings than most of the current Indian quicks with the dual task of stemming the run flow and taking wickets. It's just insane to compare them with Shamis and Bumrahs of today who get to excel as a  bowling group.

Shami was already good. So was ishu under kohli. 

 

Boom just took it to another level. 

 

Put srianth next to booms and shami and I am100% sure all 3 would have average under 25. 

 

On that note, I believe shoaib is underrated. He had no support and did well to average 25 ish. Although his average would have shot up had he played longer. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Jay

[vvvslaxman]

16 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

They will, it's unquestionably true that without DRS & T20 Ashwin's stats would not be what they are today! Back in Kumble's era we had 1 Mumbai in 2004, how many such tracks you remember Ashwin's played on? Then how many flat tracks do you remember Ashwin did well against good teams? Unless you acknowledge pitches, DRS & the fall in test batting as major contributing factors to Ashwin's numbers we won't go anywhere with this useless back & forth. Conversely his batting would yield better results, same goes for Jadeja.

 

If you are going to say DRS and Falling batting standard ( according to you 11 straight years falling since Ashwin made debut 11 years back), then it is applicable for seamers too lol. These seamers should not be considered better than Zaheer/Srinath either. Right?  So Ashwin took all his wickets on "turning minfields"> But kumble took all his wickets in the 90s on flat pattas lol  Wadekar must be happy in heaven to hear this. 

[vvvslaxman]

Kumble had gigantic scores time and again on his back to bowl.  In current era Indians are under pressure to roll over the sides for 200, 250. 

[Jay]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Kumble had gigantic scores time and again on his back to bowl.  In current era Indians are under pressure to roll over the sides for 200, 250. 

The whole 2000 era is overrated. Pacers especially. Our fab 4 is vastly overrated. On seaming tracks we were found wanting many times. 

 

So called goat aussie attack couldn't even handle Kiwis in 2000 when they drew at home vs literally a bond dependent kiwi team. 

[Majestic]

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Gee whiz why is his career performance overseas is not exactly SENA bullying as you try to portray. It is a well known fact Leggies have a distinct advantage in bouncier conditions. Even with that

 

Kumble

 

In Austrlaia  37.73@65.3 strike rate

In England   41.41@87.4 strike rate

In NZ           40.27@104.4 strike rate

In SA            32.02@844 Strike rate

In Pakistan   42.41@68.3 strike rate

In SL            44.63@93.0 strike rate

In Windies   31.28@66.0 Strike rate

 

In Bangladesh 16.53@32.4 strike rate

In Zimbabwe  29.14@66.0 strike rate

 

So we have to believe he was overseas "bully" because he had a good match? Even i would pick Kumble if only Chandrasekar is not the other spinner. You don't go with two leggies. Our forum is old enough to see how we reacted when he was not performing well.

 

 

And Windies had Lara and Chanderpaul against whom he did great.

 

Fact is kumble did well in Aus, SA and WI. Ashwin has done well only in Aus and WI. But the batting quality that Kumble bowled to and succeeded was miles ahead of Ashwin and this is without any support.

 

Ashwin has got so much more support in comparison. I am not saying Kumble is Murali/Warne level. But he clearly has taken more wickets at lesser average than Ashwin has outside Asia and his best performances have suppressed the best performances of Ashwin quite easily.

 

Out of his 600 wickets, Kumble has 150 in SENA. Ashwin has how many in SENA? 50-60 at about average of 40?? And that's enough? Simply NO.

[AuxiliA]

In Asia

 

Gavaskar

Sehwag

Dravid

Tendulkar

Kohli

Dhoni (wk) 

Jadeja

Kapil

Ashwin

Shami

Srinath/Kumble

 

In SENA

 

Gavaskar

Sehwag

Dravid

Tendulkar

Kohli

Laxman

Pant (wk) 

Kapil

Kumble/Srinath

Shami

Bumrah

 

[vvvslaxman]

This is why we should stop extrapolating stats across eras lol Anyone can be made to look good or bad. How well the player contributed during his period. Who knows even Chandrasekar could be cartered around. May be Manoj prabakar will be more successful than Thakur in this era.  Cricket stat can be bent anyway we want :)

[Majestic]

14 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

If you are going to say DRS and Falling batting standard ( according to you 11 straight years falling since Ashwin made debut 11 years back), then it is applicable for seamers too lol. These seamers should not be considered better than Zaheer/Srinath either. Right?  So Ashwin took all his wickets on "turning minfields"> But kumble took all his wickets in the 90s on flat pattas lol  Wadekar must be happy in heaven to hear this. 

All is a wrong word here.

 

But enough to argue that Kumble is better than Ash overseas. Ash is better in subcontinent. Now, I know what I would pick from my spinner.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Majestic

[R!TTER]

I'll just add 2-4 as the range to these guys' bowling avg if they were to be transported back in 2k era, conversely those guys would avg 2-4 less these days.

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

according to you 11 straight years falling since Ashwin made debut 11 years back

They aren't falling straight, as in year after year, but they are close to an all time low - due to numerous factors, including DRS/T20 & pitches! I have mentioned this in another thread as well, batters these days will score more on flat tracks at a much quicker rate than say a decade or two back, so you have to take that into account as well. Of course you can't compare eras directly due to a lot of these reasons, this is ultimately mental gymnastics. Like believing had the 57 mutiny not been quashed India would've been a leading "empire" today 

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

And Windies had Lara and Chanderpaul against whom he did great.

 

Fact is kumble did well in Aus, SA and WI. Ashwin has done well only in Aus and WI. But the batting quality that Kumble bowled to and succeeded was miles ahead of Ashwin and this is without any support.

 

Ashwin has got so much more support in comparison. I am not saying Kumble is Murali/Warne level. But he clearly has taken more wickets at lesser average than Ashwin has outside Asia and his best performances have suppressed the best performances of Ashwin quite easily.

 

Out of his 600 wickets, Kumble has 150 in SENA. Ashwin has how many in SENA? 50-60 at about average of 40?? And that's enough? Simply NO.

 

 

Blah blah. Kumble had boat load of runs and bowled boat load of overs with certainty of his place unlike Ashwin who was never given a run overseas. One match no wicket. Next match out. This is how his career was. Second of all Indian bowling has been seamer oriented for the last 4 or 5 years. Inspite of that Ashwin's average is better than Shami in three SENA countries in the last 5 years. You know what was Shami's average in England before recent tour? 47.  If anything Ashwin had lesser opportunity to wickets with him being used mainly as a holding bowler. Back then India had like 4 main bowlers one of them would be Kumble. That is why i brought the strike rate into question. 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

I'll just add 2-4 as the range to these guys' bowling avg if they were to be transported back in 2k era, conversely those guys would avg 2-4 less these days.

They aren't falling straight, as in year after year, but they are close to an all time low - due to numerous factors, including DRS/T20 & pitches! I have mentioned this in another thread as well, batters these days will score more on flat tracks at a much quicker rate than say a decade or two back, so you have to take that into account as well. Of course you can't compare eras directly due to a lot of these reasons, this is ultimately mental gymnastics. Like believing had the 57 mutiny not been quashed India would've been a leading "empire" today 

 

Dude. then we should stop hyping seamers as well. Why did our seamers go missing in New zealand? If we use a reason to discredit a bowler you can use the same reason discredit other bowlers. Does anyone trivialize Bumrah by saying "hey Bumrah ran through a hapless West Indies top order. In 1980 he would have been devoured by Greenidge/Haynes/Richards". That is why i brought up the match winning efforts. No matter what era. You cannot win man of the series without contributing significantly to your team success. Two of his man of the series came away from home. Players who played through 4 decades could not win that many. Even the lone warrior Murali had only 11 in 131 matches. Ashwin 9 in 82 matches. But we are hell bent on proving like he did nothing for India. lol

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

And yes, without DRS, Ashwin would average 30 in this very era.

 

It is easy to find out how many dismissals were benefitted by DRS, how many were not.

[Majestic]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

Blah blah. Kumble had boat load of runs and bowled boat load of overs with certainty of his place unlike Ashwin who was never given a run overseas. One match no wicket. Next match out. This is how his career was. Second of all Indian bowling has been seamer oriented for the last 4 or 5 years. Inspite of that Ashwin's average is better than Shami in three SENA countries in the last 5 years. You know what was Shami's average in England before recent tour? 47.  If anything Ashwin had lesser opportunity to wickets with him being used mainly as a holding bowler. Back then India had like 4 main bowlers one of them would be Kumble. That is why i brought the strike rate into question. 

More support means better average. You can bowl 4-5 overs and get away without hurting his average. Like in Jadeja's case.

 

But still in SENA conditions, the stats of Ashwin is,

 

50-60 odd wickets, Average 40.

 

Imagine had he required to bowl long spells day in and out like Kumble with no good pacer to support, he would have often produced figures like 0-130, 1-140, 2-160 type figures lol. These are real facts which Ashwin fans find hard to bloat. He has got great support, yet he averages 40 in SENA conditions with bowl.

 

If Kumble had more support, yes, he might have few lesser wickets but his average would have definitely been even better in those conditions.

 

It is same as if Kapil Dev had more support, he would have probably averaged 26-27 instead of 29-30. 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

More support means better average. You can bowl 4-5 overs and get away without hurting his average. Like in Jadeja's case.

 

But still in SENA conditions, the stats of Ashwin is,

 

50-60 odd wickets, Average 40.

 

Imagine had he required to bowl long spells day in and out like Kumble with no good pacer to support, he would have often produced figures like 0-130, 1-140, 2-160 type figures lol. These are real facts which Ashwin fans find hard to bloat. He has got great support, yet he averages 40 in SENA conditions with bowl.

 

If Kumble had more support, yes, he might have few lesser wickets but his average would have definitely been even better in those conditions.

 

It is same as if Kapil Dev had more support, he would have probably averaged 26-27 instead of 29-30. 

 

 

 

Basically you admit he is no better lol.  Why didn't they give him a full series then?  If Kumble had played under Kohli he would have been benched in many matches after a long dry spell.  Can you imagine Kumble missing an entire series because he can't bat better than some other spinner in the side?

[R!TTER]

40 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You cannot win man of the series without contributing significantly to your team success. Two of his man of the series came away from home. Players who played through 4 decades could not win that many. Even the lone warrior Murali had only 11 in 131 matches. Ashwin 9 in 82 matches. But we are hell bent on proving like he did nothing for India. lol

Is that your takeaway in the last month or so? But you seem hell bent on labelling Jadeja a darter or someone less than Ashwin even in Asia, he's not so just stop!

View overall figures [change view] Involving all of the players R Ashwin (INDIA) or RA Jadeja (INDIA)  Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20  Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 8 of 8   First  Previous Next  Last  Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Runs HS Bat Av 100 Wkts BBI Bowl Av 5 Ct St Ave Diff   RA Jadeja (INDIA) 2012-2021 41 1483 100* 36.17 1 187 7/48 21.44 8 26 0 14.72   R Ashwin (INDIA) 2012-2021 41 1186 118 26.35 1 222 7/59 23.17 17 12 0 3.18   Mohammed Shami (INDIA) 2016-2021 18 174 30 21.75 0 63 5/35 22.74 1 7 0 -0.99   B Kumar (INDIA) 2013-2017 11 148 38 12.33 0 33 5/33 22.03 2 4 0 -9.69

 

Statistically Jadeja is the best player we've had in the last 30 odd years - whether you rate him or not doesn't really matter, numbers tell a story but yeah not the whole picture.

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa

Involving all of the players R Ashwin (INDIA) or RA Jadeja (INDIA)

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 5 of 5

First  Previous

Next Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
RA Jadeja	2012-2021	29	1068	91	32.36	0	142	7/48	20.70	7	19	0	11.65
R Ashwin	2012-2021	29	843	72	26.34	0	171	7/59	22.45	16	9	0	3.88
Mohammed Shami	2016-2021	10	77	19	15.40	0	35	5/35	22.68	1	3	0	-7.28
UT Yadav	2015-2021	17	136	31	11.33	0	46	4/32	28.43	0	7	0	-17.10
I Sharma	2012-2021	16	22	6	2.75	0	22	3/48	44.90	0	3	0	-42.15

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

This is why you need to think a little deeper instead of trolling like a fanboy 24/7 on this forum

 

DRS hasn't affected bowling averages only where the technology was used. Rather, umpires are more likely to give batsmen out in cases where they would simply not before DRS was introduced. This is what has helped bowling averages - especially for spinners.

 

Okay it is not like we did not watch cricket match in the 2000s.  Lack of DRS helped bowlers as well as much as it hurt them. You sound like all the incorrect decisions were in favor of batsmen

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

Is that your takeaway in the last month or so? But you seem hell bent on labelling Jadeja a darter or someone less than Ashwin even in Asia, he's not so just stop!

View overall figures [change view]

Involving any of the players R Ashwin (INDIA) http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif or RA Jadeja (INDIA) http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50 http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 11 of 11

http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoFirst-icon_13x13.gifFirst http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoPrev-disable-icon_13x13.gifPrevious

Next http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoNext-disable.gif Last http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoLast-disable.gif

http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwB.gifReturn to query menu http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/dblBakArwW.gifCleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diffhttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif
RA Jadeja (INDIA)	2012-2021	57	2195	100*	33.76	1	232	7/48	24.84	9	39	0	8.92	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Ashwin (INDIA)	2011-2021	82	2773	124	27.18	5	429	7/59	24.14	30	27	0	3.04	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2021	16	756	146	29.07	2	55	6/67	33.87	2	15	0	-4.79	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
B Kumar (INDIA)	2013-2018	20	489	63*	21.26	0	59	6/82	26.45	4	8	0	-5.19	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif

 

Statistically Jadeja is the best player we've had in the last 30 odd years - whether you rate him or not doesn't really matter, numbers tell a story but yeah not the whole picture.

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif or England http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif or New Zealand http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif or South Africa http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif

Involving all of the players R Ashwin (INDIA) http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif or RA Jadeja (INDIA) http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif

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Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

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Showing 1 - 5 of 5

http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoFirst-icon_13x13.gifFirst http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoPrev-disable-icon_13x13.gifPrevious

Next http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoNext-disable.gif Last http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/ciPhotoLast-disable.gif

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diffhttp://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/blackArrowDown.gif
RA Jadeja	2012-2021	29	1068	91	32.36	0	142	7/48	20.70	7	19	0	11.65	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
R Ashwin	2012-2021	29	843	72	26.34	0	171	7/59	22.45	16	9	0	3.88	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
Mohammed Shami	2016-2021	10	77	19	15.40	0	35	5/35	22.68	1	3	0	-7.28	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
UT Yadav	2015-2021	17	136	31	11.33	0	46	4/32	28.43	0	7	0	-17.10	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif
I Sharma	2012-2021	16	22	6	2.75	0	22	3/48	44.90	0	3	0	-42.15	http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruInvestigate.gif

 

 

Here comes the filters. PRay tell me why Jadeja is unable to dominate series, or match like Ashwin did with many wickets in a match. Can you put out a stat what Jadeja achieved without Ashwin in the side. Also put out the stat of Ashwin without Jadeja in the side. I am talking about home stats since overseas it was rare they played together.

[Majestic]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Basically you admit he is no better lol.  Why didn't they give him a full series then?  If Kumble had played under Kohli he would have been benched in many matches after a long dry spell.  Can you imagine Kumble missing an entire series because he can't bat better than some other spinner in the side?

Kumble is slightly better for me because his best performances outperform Ashwin's best performances overseas. Also, with better support, Kumble overseas average would have been slightly better too. 

 

To conclude, Kumble was no Murali or Warne for a start though but better than Ash.

 

Now, obviously, as a batter, he is inferior. But the discussion was about their bowling.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Majestic

[R!TTER]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Here comes the filters. PRay tell me why Jadeja is unable to dominate series, or match like Ashwin did with many wickets in a match. Can you put out a stat what Jadeja achieved without Ashwin in the side. Also put out the stat of Ashwin without Jadeja in the side. I am talking about home stats since overseas it was rare they played together.

You do know who judges man of the match or man of the series right? Can you tell me Ashwin's stats in Oz, or SA, pre 2018? What is good for the goose if afterall great for the gander as well 

 

Like on the three spin friendly tracks Eng faced earlier in the year, or Mumbai vs NZ? Do you want me to pull stats for Axar in those games