The Indian Pace Bowling Pool need more Bounce Bowlers ... We suffered in South Africa because we could not use bounce as a weapon against ther top 6 batters

[Adamant]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:09 PM, express bowling said:

 

 

1)   I did not say ONLY. We don't have this type at all. There is no one who is tall, hit the deck and accurate.  When Steyn or Philander played, they had tall, hit the deck quicks to complement them. 

 

2)  Anyone who had seen Steyn bowl knows that he had this ability to bash the pitch very hard when the ball stopped swinging. And he did this at 90 mph+.

 

3)  Philander, though medium paced and medium height, was a seam bowler for the first 80% of his career. He hit the deck for seam movement and did not look for Swing except his last 2 years. He himself was talking about this in commentary multiple times. 

 

Too many people don't understand the difference between swing bowlers and seam bowlers. 

When Bumrah, Ishant and Bhuvi were performing well in away tests we didn't have any Bounce based bowlers and no a world class test attack doesn't have a pre decided formula. It is something which you have come up with just bcoz you saw a few patterns. 

 

There is no need of a formula here, go with a bowler who can act as our stock bowler as we have none after departure of Ishant

[harpicP]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

When Bumrah, Ishant and Bhuvi were performing well in away tests we didn't have any Bounce based bowlers and no a world class test attack doesn't have a pre decided formula. It is something which you have come up with just bcoz you saw a few patterns. 

 

There is no need of a formula here, go with a bowler who can act as our stock bowler as we have none after departure of Ishant

Varied attack is needed. 

 

Prime bowlers like bumrah and shami are crucial. They need to be supported by someone who is like a boa constrictor. Someone who doesn't leak. Ishant did that. Bhubi could bat at the time and swung the ball. So it made india a potent attack. 

 

We just need to add a player who can either seam and swing the ball at decent pace or a bowler who can restrict runs and keep it tight. Put pressure. 

 

Ability to hurt and intimidate batsmen is key. Without it, attack will never be complete. 

[Adamant]

1 minute ago, harpicP said:

Varied attack is needed. 

 

Prime bowlers like bumrah and shami are crucial. They need to be supported by someone who is like a boa constrictor. Someone who doesn't leak. Ishant did that. Bhubi could bat at the time and swung the ball. So it made india a potent attack. 

 

We just need to add a player who can either seam and swing the ball at decent pace or a bowler who can restrict runs and keep it tight. Put pressure. 

 

Ability to hurt and intimidate batsmen is key. Without it, attack will never be complete. 

Ishant from 2015-2020 was not known for intimidating batsmen, he swung the new ball (more than Anderson, yes, proven metric) at 130-140, operating mostly around 135, that is exactly what we need. 

 

What do people actually mean by intimidating a batsman? 

Isn't Bumrah enough for that? Or do you think express pace is the only way to do that? 

 

This nonsense of intimidating a batsman is nothing but just good bowling, trent Boult does that, so does Jamieson. 

There's no need to get a specialist for this 

[Adamant]

Last time we toured England, I read some gems like we should use Umran Malik like our own Mark Wood and intimidate English Batsman, the whole pace merchants fan following group was supporting that. 

I don't know why I still expect sanity here. 

 

Mukesh Kumar will be a better choice in SA than Sen, Prasidh actually even Siraj

[harpicP]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

Ishant from 2015-2020 was not known for intimidating batsmen, he swung the new ball (more than Anderson, yes, proven metric) at 130-140, operating mostly around 135, that is exactly what we need. 

 

What do people actually mean by intimidating a batsman? 

Isn't Bumrah enough for that? Or do you think express pace is the only way to do that? 

 

This nonsense of intimidating a batsman is nothing but just good bowling, trent Boult does that, so does Jamieson. 

There's no need to get a specialist for this 

Intimidate doesn't have to be high pace. Just accurate and bowl short balls at a batsman at uncofmotsbel angles.

Bowling bouncers at an angle etc makes it much more potent. Need to be accurate. Pace doesn't matter too much. 134 to 145 range is more than fine. 

 

Look how accurate mcgratsh bouncers were. Steepling bounce that moves away. 

 

We literally threw our wickets vs SA. So csnt really judge by that game. 

 

Hostile bowling has to be accurate. batsmen should be put into uncomfortable positions by generating bounce of good lengths etc. 

 

Many batsmen are good vs short ball in SA cause they are used to it. 

 

Iyer is weak vs bounce so opponents can take full advantage. 

 

Also jaiswal is new. It's tough for a kid. 

 

Gill has issues with inswing.

 

Have to bowl to a plan too. Short ball mixed with a Yorker or one that moves away etc. 

[harpicP]

1 hour ago, Adamant said:

Last time we toured England, I read some gems like we should use Umran Malik like our own Mark Wood and intimidate English Batsman, the whole pace merchants fan following group was supporting that. 

I don't know why I still expect sanity here. 

 

Mukesh Kumar will be a better choice in SA than Sen, Prasidh actually even Siraj

No not umran obviously. I am not convinced by Mukesh but let's see. 

I would rather try avesh and arshdeep. They can bat too. They hit the deck hard.

[Adamant]

57 minutes ago, harpicP said:

No not umran obviously. I am not convinced by Mukesh but let's see. 

I would rather try avesh and arshdeep. They can bat too. They hit the deck hard.

Arshdeep can become a handy bowler in SENW conditions, just needs a bit more time as his control over line and length is a bit shaky

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

Last time we toured England, I read some gems like we should use Umran Malik like our own Mark Wood and intimidate English Batsman, the whole pace merchants fan following group was supporting that. 

I don't know why I still expect sanity here. 

 

Mukesh Kumar will be a better choice in SA than Sen, Prasidh actually even Siraj

@Adamant one may (rightly) argue that the performance of prasidh in the first test was so bad that even kohli would have taken more wickets had he bowled the same number of overs.

[harpicP]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

@Adamant one may (rightly) argue that the performance of prasidh in the first test was so bad that even kohli would have taken more wickets had he bowled the same number of overs.

One more game and that's it. We can't afford to have hiccups. 

 

If we are grooming him, we should have debtuted him at home first. 

[AKane]

4 hours ago, harpicP said:

Look how accurate mcgratsh bouncers were. Steepling bounce that moves away. 

McGrath was 6'6" tall with a full overhead action - his release point was just an inch or two from Ambrose's. From that height he could bowl at speeds of 138/139 kmph. 

 

We have never had a bowler like McGrath.

[Suhaan]

9 hours ago, AKane said:

McGrath was 6'6" tall with a full overhead action - his release point was just an inch or two from Ambrose's. From that height he could bowl at speeds of 138/139 kmph. 

 

We have never had a bowler like McGrath.

Our fast bowlers have been wayward historically from Zaheer,Ishant,Srinath days they take more time than other country bowlers

Which is why we need to have a proper fast bowling coach like Donald,Arun or even Lee,Steyn to shorten this learning curve to maximize their services

I have seen guys like Tyagi to being erratic but that doesn't mean we abandon them straightaway,they have huge potential which we can't afford to loose

[rollingstoned]

16 hours ago, AKane said:

McGrath was 6'6" tall with a full overhead action - his release point was just an inch or two from Ambrose's. From that height he could bowl at speeds of 138/139 kmph. 

 

We have never had a bowler like McGrath.

Pankaj Singh says hi. 

[express bowling]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:33 PM, Adamant said:

There's no need of any more bounce based bowler, we were doing fine with Ishant, Bunrah and Bhuvi in 2018

We require a bowler with control over line and length. 

 

AFAIK  Bhuvi did not play any tests after February 2018. We lost in SA 2018 in January 

 

Our success was with Bumrah, Shami and Ishant and then with Bumrah, Siraj and Shami.

 

And during that period, Bumrah and Shami were really hitting the deck hard for bounce and seam movement and Ishant provided a high realease point.

 

 

 

On 12/30/2023 at 3:33 PM, Adamant said:

Prasidh, who according to you is a perfect bounce based bowler failed bcoz he doesn't have the right control. 

 

1)  Coming to a conclusion based on one match or even five matches is not the right approach.

 

2)  Every player with potential won't succeed. It has happened in the past and it will happen in the future. Which is why a POOL of such players / bowlers are needed.

 

 

On 12/30/2023 at 3:33 PM, Adamant said:

 

Bhuvi would have tore them a new one here, pls analyse things properly instead of always going for pace and bounce

 

Bhuvi is nearing the end of his career and has had a mediocre career in.all 3 formats, especially the 2 longer ones. 

 

So you analyse things properly. 

Edited January 3 by express bowling

[express bowling]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:36 PM, Adamant said:

When Bumrah, Ishant and Bhuvi were performing well in away tests we didn't have any Bounce based bowlers and no a world class test attack doesn't have a pre decided formula. It is something which you have come up with just bcoz you saw a few patterns. 

 

There is no need of a formula here, go with a bowler who can act as our stock bowler as we have none after departure of Ishant

 

 

It was Bumrah, Shami and Ishant.  When did we win or draw a series in SENA with Bhuvi  ?  He was gone from Tests from mid 2018.

 

Bumrah from 2017 to early 2022 and Shami from 2013 to 2021, got steep bounce for their height and hit the deck really hard. And Ishant had a high release point and got good absolute bounce (  although not steep bounce for his height  )

 

And I am talking about building an attack to dominate tests outside Asia .... not win odd tests here and there or a series here and there like we do.

[express bowling]

Have Team India ever dominated test cricket away from home ??

 

Have Team India ever had teams literally psyched out to play our team like WI of the 70s snd 80s or Australia of 90s and 00s  ?

 

That can come only if our pacers combine bounce, accuracy and seam movement, with atleast 2 pacers having genuine pace. 

 

Winning odd test matches here and there can be done with shorter medium pacers too. And people remember just those matches here.

 

Only in India do we see lots of people questioning the need for quite a few tall, hit the pacers with bounce.  Teams which have actually dominated cricket have made this their default choice. 

[express bowling]

Good to see Bumrah and Siraj get more bounce from length in this match so far.

 

They are hitting the deck harder.

[express bowling]

Bumrah dismisses Stubbs with some bounce and seam movement off length.

 

Catch lobs to short leg. (  I always want short legs in SENA  ) 

 

This is what I want to see. Hitting the deck hard in the good length area for bounce and seam movement.

[express bowling]

Again extra bounce off length, hitting the batsman's finger, and Siraj gets his 4th wicket. 

 

Philander pointing it out too that the Indian quicks,are using the pitch much better in this test, hitting thd deck harder for seam movement and bounce.  He is observant as always. 

[Adamant]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

AFAIK  Bhuvi did not play any tests after February 2018. We lost in SA 2018 in January 

 

Our success was with Bumrah, Shami and Ishant and then with Bumrah, Siraj and Shami.

 

And during that period, Bumrah and Shami were really hitting the deck hard for bounce and seam movement and Ishant provided a high realease point.

 

 

 

 

1)  Coming to a conclusion based on one match or even five matches is not the right approach.

 

2)  Every player with potential won't succeed. It has happened in the past and it will happen in the future. Which is why a POOL of such players / bowlers are needed.

 

 

 

Bhuvi is nearing the end of his career and has had a mediocre career in.all 3 formats, especially the 2 longer ones. 

 

So you analyse things properly. 

Bhuvi has done exceptionally well in conditions where the ball moves, there is no need of a pace demon or bounce based bowler.

 

Ishant Sharma was not a bounce based bowler, Shami is as good as he was back then.

 

We eere doing fine without your “bounce based bowler” and we will continue doing so if we pace horses for courses.

 

You are someone who wanted Umran to play in the last England tour, that is why I think you just look at pace without analysing how different conditions demand different bowlers.

 

Bhuvi has done exceptionally well in SEN, I was talking about his bowling in those countries and not his overall career.

 

Today again, we didn’t need any bounce based bowler.

[Jaydev_Unadkat]

Mukesh Kumar owning phaaast bowling coaches of ICf again