Team Ind could become the Trundler Army

[vvvslaxman]

29 minutes ago, Axl100mph said:

KPK alone is producing more than half the talent that is coming from Pakistan. 

Ever since the PTI formed government there in 2013, they have invested in the cricket setup in the province and now they are basically running away with all the tournaments starting from under 16's to the senior domestic cricket.

 

The people from KPK are naturally fitter and mentally tougher than other ethnicities. The 140 kph fast bowlers right now for example, Shaheen,  Rauf, Naseem,  Zeeshan zameer, Sameen Gul, Arshad iqbal all have links from that region. And he is right, there are many more who have still not risen to the top level. 

 

 

 

Basically he is making up numbers. Shaheen is a good find. But he came through the ranks and proved. This Zeeshan dude was projected to be next BRett Lee. He was basically a trundler.

 

[Lone Wolf]

59 minutes ago, Axl100mph said:

2000 was when we had an underachieving team with a litany of off field issues and a new captain every series.

 

The 2010's decade in the UAE was the most barren in our cricket history for reasons that are obvious, so stop taking solace in our defeat there. The fact that we still kept on competing during this decade and maintained the interest at home is enough of an achievement. 

 

We still won 1-0 in 2013, 2-1 in 2015 away, 1-0 in 2020 against lanka during this decade.

 

 

 

Not denying that you have tasted success as well but just reminding the other poster who probably thinks Sri Lanka has been minnow for like forever. 

Actually the entire 90's side of Pakistan has been overrated a lot.  They have lost slew of home series during that decade & kinda destroyed Pakistan home dominance which used to be a great in late 80's & early 90's.  I very much prefer what Pakistan achieved under Misbah in UAE. 

[Axl100mph]

41 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Basically he is making up numbers. Shaheen is a good find. But he came through the ranks and proved. This Zeeshan dude was projected to be next BRett Lee. He was basically a trundler.

 

Lol at calling zeeshan a trundler. He was bowling at a speed that your much fancied new speed demons were bowling at in the recent series n he was playing with a shin injury.

He bowled just 2 and half overs in the PSL before going off with a side-strain. In that he hit 144, 143, 142 while swinging it away and extracting good carry.  He squared up Babar which is validation in itself.  

 

 

Nobody billed him as brett lee. If anything,  he is a ryan Harris type bowler.

 

And i named those bowlers because people have had had enough exposure to them to be known.There are several others who people dont know yet, but do bowl in the late 130's, early 140's.

Pace bowling talent had become barren in the 2010's but around the turn of the decade things have changed.

Wait till we see the 6 '8 Mohammad zeeshan with a fantastic action. He has fitness issues because of his age and height, but boy what a talent. 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Axl100mph

[AKane]

22 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

 They have lost slew of home series during that decade & kinda destroyed Pakistan home dominance which used to be a great in late 80's & early 90's.

Things changed from what was working for them perfectly at home - biased umpiring.

 

TV closeups and neutral umpiring ruined things for them at home.

[vvvslaxman]

18 minutes ago, Axl100mph said:

Lol at calling zeeshan a trundler. He was bowling at a speed that your much fancied new speed demons were bowling at in the recent series n he was playing with a shin injury.

He bowled just 2 and half overs in the PSL before going off with a side-strain. In that he hit 144, 143, 142 while swinging it away and extracting good carry.  He squared up Babar which is validation in itself.  

 

 

Nobody billed him as brett lee. If anything,  he is a ryan Harris type bowler.

 

And i named those bowlers because people have had had enough exposure to them to be known.There are several others who people dont know yet, but do bowl in the late 130's, early 140's.

Pace bowling talent had become barren in the 2010's but around the turn of the decade things have changed.

Wait till we see the 6 '8 Mohammad zeeshan with a fantastic action. He has fitness issues because of his age and height, but boy what a talent. 

 

 

I am going by the world cup where he was basically trundling. Wasn't exactly the "fastest" bowler there. It was Hangargekar.

[ABDfan]

12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I am going by the world cup where he was basically trundling. Wasn't exactly the "fastest" bowler there. It was Hangargekar.

Well that is very debatable as the speedguns were not working in some matches

[express bowling]

On 2/21/2022 at 1:45 PM, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Stop distinguishing players with pace

Start distinguishing players with skill 

 

A lot of very important and wicket taking skills are not available to the pacer if he lacks pace. Like 

 

.... Quick yorker

.... Quick stump directed ball.

.... Back of a length ball that rears up nastily

.... Hostile bouncer.

 

Add to that ... cricket is played with a very hard ball and almost every batsmen is physically afraid of pacers who can bowl 90 mph or more. This creates massive psychological advantage if the bowler is reasonably accurate.  

[Ankit_sharma03]

43 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

A lot of very important and wicket taking skills are not available to the pacer if he lacks pace. Like 

 

.... Quick yorker

.... Quick stump directed ball.

.... Back of a length ball that rears up nastily

.... Hostile bouncer.

 

Add to that ... cricket is played with a very hard ball and almost every batsmen is physically afraid of pacers who can bowl 90 mph or more. This creates massive psychological advantage if the bowler is reasonably accurate.  

 

• yorker is about execution , In IPL it was praveen kumar who had 2nd best execution of yorker after Bumrah, Natrajan doesnt have great pace either . Not to forget bhuvi was our 2nd best t20 bowler before his injuries and he was an all phase bowler .The margin of error is so limited these days with yorker that u have to have guys with great execution 
• Bouncer anyways u can only bowl one 
• Hard lengths is a role which i talked about for middle phase but their are others to like new ball wkts too which is as important 
• Quick stump directed ball ?? thats not enough u need to able to have variation in ur lines as well since batsman dance around the pitch 

 

All above qualities ill take if we have someone like Archer, the option we have are basically nothing close to archer.

 

Gone are those days when batsman use to be scared , even in last decade guys like Bmac n dilshan wasnt scared to scoop guys like tait . No one gets scared of Lockie or wood these days . If ur consistently above 90mph u might scare a tail ender at best .

90mph hardly scares anyone now . The only guy who may scare ppl these days is archer as he have hit a lot ppl in head but then again these guys dnt strike same fear in batsman as lee or akthar did coz batting now has gone at a different level.

 

 

So pace is just part of skills not the whole skill 

LOI u need to select players acc to roles 

• someone who can take wkts with new ball- which we are badly struggling at , even one of our all phase bowlers bumrah 
• All phase bowler
• Hard length bowler
• death over bowlers
• Variations - with lines n length and diff type of deliveries 

 

Look at how MI constructed their side 

 

(in past)

Bumrah- al phase bowler Now they have archer also

Boult - someone who takes wkts with new ball . Now Meredith for that role

Mcgleshen/NCN - middle over enforcer or someone who can bat or someone who has variety . Now they have added mills 

 

Or take Delhi

Rabada- mid phase to death 

Nortje- all phase

Avesh- new ball to middle 

Ishant- new ball bowler and they also bought umesh as backup for PP overs 

 

 

Attacks shud be constructed by roles even batting 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

• yorker is about execution , In IPL it was praveen kumar who had 2nd best execution of yorker after Bumrah, Natrajan doesnt have great pace either . Not to forget bhuvi was our 2nd best t20 bowler before his injuries and he was an all phase bowler .The margin of error is so limited these days with yorker that u have to have guys with great execution 
• Bouncer anyways u can only bowl one 
• Hard lengths is a role which i talked about for middle phase but their are others to like new ball wkts too which is as important 
• Quick stump directed ball ?? thats not enough u need to able to have variation in ur lines as well since batsman dance around the pitch 

 

All above qualities ill take if we have someone like Archer, the option we have are basically nothing close to archer.

 

Gone are those days when batsman use to be scared , even in last decade guys like Bmac n dilshan wasnt scared to scoop guys like tait . No one gets scared of Lockie or wood these days . If ur consistently above 90mph u might scare a tail ender at best .

90mph hardly scares anyone now . The only guy who may scare ppl these days is archer as he have hit a lot ppl in head but then again these guys dnt strike same fear in batsman as lee or akthar did coz batting now has gone at a different level.

 

 

So pace is just part of skills not the whole skill 

LOI u need to select players acc to roles 

• someone who can take wkts with new ball- which we are badly struggling at , even one of our all phase bowlers bumrah 
• All phase bowler
• Hard length bowler
• death over bowlers
• Variations - with lines n length and diff type of deliveries 

 

Look at how MI constructed their side 

 

(in past)

Bumrah- al phase bowler Now they have archer also

Boult - someone who takes wkts with new ball . Now Meredith for that role

Mcgleshen/NCN - middle over enforcer or someone who can bat or someone who has variety . Now they have added mills 

 

Or take Delhi

Rabada- pretty much all phase

Nortje- all phase

Avesh- middle over enforcer and death 

Ishant- new ball bowler and they also bought umesh as backup for PP overs 

 

 

Attacks shud be constructed by roles even batting 

 

 

 

 

Nothing you have said above prove that pace is not needed for the very import skills I have mentioned.

 

Medium pacers primarily have defensive yorkers. Yorkers become a true wicket taking option to quick bowlers like Bumrah or Malinga. 

 

And you are discussing T20s only. I am talking about all formats. Batsmen pee their pants if they have to face quick bowling on a slightly up and down test match pitch or bouncy green top.

 

And I don't understand why people assume that a Fast bowler cannot have other skills like slower balls, knuckle balls etc. 

 

In a nutshell, a skilful fast bowler will have a far wider range of skills than a skilful medium pacer.

Edited February 22, 2022 by express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Nothing you have said above prove that pace is not needed for the very import skills I have mentioned.

 

Medium pacers primarily have defensive yorkers. Yorkers become a true wicket taking option to quick bowlers like Bumrah or Malinga. 

 

And you are discussing T20s only. I am talking about all formats. Batsmen pwe their pants if they have to face quick bowling on a slightly up and down test match pitch or bouncy green top.

yes im discussing t20 only

for test play ur best bowler - everyone bowls in every phase 

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Nothing you have said above prove that pace is not needed for the very import skills I have mentioned

i have nothing against pace - my whole problem is disregard given to guys like chahar n harshal coz of their less pace which btw is not that they are bowling in 120k. They have skills for phases of t20  and their are very few complete bowlers in LOI so why abuse them if they lack something comparing to other who also lack other things. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Nothing you have said above prove that pace is not needed for the very import skills I have mentioned

i have nothing against pace - my whole problem is disregard given to guys like chahar n harshal coz of their less pace which btw is not that they are bowling in 120k. They have skills for phases of t20  and their are very few complete bowlers in LOI so why abuse them if they lack something comparing to other who also lack other things. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

In a nutshell, a skilful fast bowler will have a far wider range of skills than a skilful medium pacer.

in a nutshell their are very few fast bowlers in world who have wide range n control over those skills so when we find them then i really doubt anyone will have a problem 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Ankit_sharma03

[Lone Wolf]

Need to differentiate ODI & T20 cricket..  In T20 cricket bowlers like Harshal Shardul can work but not in ODIs anymore. 

Trend of sub 300 or 280-290 is coming back.   Wicket takers with new ball & middle overs are gaining preference.  You need pace & bounce in ODI cricket more than ever now. 

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

i have nothing against pace - my whole problem is disregard given to guys like chahar n harshal coz of their less pace which btw is not that they are bowling in 120k. They have skills for phases of t20  and their are very few complete bowlers in LOI so why abuse them if they lack something comparing to other who also lack other things. 

 

It is becoming an issue because the TM are picking 4 medium pacers + 0 quicks for T20s.

 

A pace attack of Bumrah, Siraj, Harshal and Venkatesh is good for me in T20s. 

[vvvslaxman]

48 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

A lot of very important and wicket taking skills are not available to the pacer if he lacks pace. Like 

 

.... Quick yorker

.... Quick stump directed ball.

.... Back of a length ball that rears up nastily

.... Hostile bouncer.

 

Add to that ... cricket is played with a very hard ball and almost every batsmen is physically afraid of pacers who can bowl 90 mph or more. This creates massive psychological advantage if the bowler is reasonably accurate.  

 

I don't think that is true. Infact Kohli stands outside the crease against such balls. Gayle infact at his peak used to waltz down to thrash 90 mph balls from Brett Lee.  Anyway you are looking for someone that you should make in lab lol I don't think any bowler can do all these things in all the conditions they play. If they try no.3 at Rajkot, ball will land outside the stadium even against Raina.  On flat roads except yorkers all the other balls will be gifts for fast scoring batsmen. Even edges will fly. We are assuming we are playing every T20 at Headingley, Wanderers, Perth ( in their best usual conditions). That is most definitely not the case.  The reason why Malinga was so successful in this format, he has the best weapon that completely takes the pitch out of the equation. He can execute it anywhere without relying on surfaces. Accurate yorker is possibly the only one tool you need in a format like T20. Then bit of change of pace. Infact Pat cummins realized the surface slow in sharjah and mixed up so many slower ones cleverly. He didn't try to bowl nasty bouncers.

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

in a nutshell their are very few fast bowlers in world who have wide range n control over those skills so when we find them then i really doubt anyone will have a problem 

 

Control over a wide range of skills come only if a pacer is allowed to play. Someone as skilful as a Siraj can master most T20 skills if he gets to play 15 T20Is.

 

But it is not happening because only medium pacers are being picked for T20Is.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

 

It is becoming an issue because the TM are picking 4 medium pacers + 0 quicks for T20s.

 

A pace attack of Bumrah, Siraj, Harshal and Venkatesh is good for me in T20s. 

 

Siraj has not really proved his case to purely qualify as a bowler.  Chahar has proved to be a new ball wicket taker time and again. His batting is a huge bonus. Having someone like give top order more license. It automatically changes the dynamics of batting department. With Siraj you lose that edge. SIraj must compensate that in every single match he plays. He cannot fail even in one match with new ball. Can he do that?

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I don't think that is true. Infact Kohli stands outside the crease against such balls. Gayle infact at his peak used to waltz down to thrash 90 mph balls from Brett Lee.  Anyway you are looking for someone that you should make in lab lol I don't think any bowler can do all these things in all the conditions they play. If they try no.3 at Rajkot, ball will land outside the stadium even against Raina.  On flat roads except yorkers all the other balls will be gifts for fast scoring batsmen. Even edges will fly. We are assuming we are playing every T20 at Headingley, Wanderers, Perth ( in their best usual conditions). That is most definitely not the case.  The reason why Malinga was so successful in this format, he has the best weapon that completely takes the pitch out of the equation. He can execute it anywhere without relying on surfaces. Accurate yorker is possibly the only one tool you need in a format like T20. Then bit of change of pace. Infact Pat cummins realized the surface slow in sharjah and mixed up so many slower ones cleverly. He didn't try to bowl nasty bouncers.

 

 

I am not talking about T20s only. But Tests and ODIs too.

 

 

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Siraj has not really proved his case to purely qualify as a bowler.  Chahar has proved to be a new ball wicket taker time and again. His batting is a huge bonus. Having someone like give top order more license. It automatically changes the dynamics of batting department. With Siraj you lose that edge. SIraj must compensate that in every single match he plays. He cannot fail even in one match with new ball. Can he do that?

 

Apart from the last T20I, Chahar has been rather poor with the ball in T20Is in the last 2 years. 

 

He has taken 9 wickets from his last 10 T20Is. So how many new ball wickets can he be taking ?