Team Ind could become the Trundler Army

[zen]

Avesh, Bhuvi, D Chahar, Harshal, & Thakur 

 

Ok in Indian conditions but need to field exciting pace bowlers 
 

[ungboysj]

Not needed in loi

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Avesh, Bhuvi, D Chahar, Harshal, & Thakur 

 

Ok in Indian conditions but need to field exciting pace bowlers 
 

Avesh dud trundle here, but I am not sure if he will always trundle (hopefully not). Can add Natarajan to the list as well.

 

trundler culture being fostered.

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Avesh dud trundle here, but I am not sure if he will always trundle (hopefully not). Can add Natarajan to the list as well.

 

trundler culture being fostered.

 

Below is how I classify pace (in kmph):

• 150+: Express
• 140-150: Fast
• 130-140: Fast Medium (Fast in 80s and earlier period due to standard of protective equipment, laws, etc.) 
• 120-130: Medium 

Yes, we need to develop options in fast & express category, which makes watching cricket interesting as well   

[Vijy]

48 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Below is how I classify pace (in kmph):

• 150+: Express
• 140-150: Fast
• 130-140: Fast Medium (Fast in 80s and earlier period due to standard of protective equipment, laws, etc.) 
• 120-130: Medium 

Yes, we need to develop options in fast & express category, which makes watching cricket interesting as well   

I don't think there has been a single bowler (and I've seen them quite regularly from 70s) who can repeatedly maintain an avg pace of 150+ in a 4-5 over spell, not even thommo, shoaib, and lee. I presume you are referring to peak speed here?

 

My take on avg speeds is the following:

 

90+ mph (145+ kph) - express

140-145 kph - fast

135 - 140 kph - quick/sharp

130 - 135 kph - trundler (borderline quick)

125 - 130 kph - sub-trundler (borderline trundler)

< 125 kph - unadcutter

 

@express bowling @Mosher thoughts?

Edited February 20, 2022 by Vijy

[zen]

35 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I don't think there has been a single bowler (and I've seen them quite regularly from 70s) who can maintain an avg pace of 150+ in a 4-5 over spell, not even thommo, shoaib, and lee. I presume you are referring to peak speed here?

 

 

Not average or peak but frequency 2 (for express) to 4 balls in that speed range in an over (as there will be variations) when needed ... For e.g. you would see Umran recently, Archer, Starc, Afridi, etc. bowl pacy overs 

 

In an over, average can be impacted by slower or faster balls; peak by 1 ball 

 

PS for e.g,

 

Average: 140, 141, 142, 143, 120, 130, Avg = 136. I would count it as fast (140-150 range) since 4 balls are above 140 

 

Peak: 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, Peak = 135. I would count it as a medium, since most of the balls are in 120-130 range, with a peak of 135 and low of 110

Edited February 20, 2022 by zen

[Vijy]

21 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Not average or peak but frequency 2(for express) to 4 balls in that speed range in an over (as there will be variations) when needed ... For e.g. you would see Umran recently, Archer, Starc, Afridi, etc. bowl pacy overs 

 

In an over, average can be impacted by slower or faster balls; peak by 1 ball 

 

PS for e.g,

 

Average: 140, 141, 142, 143, 120, 131, Avg = 136. I would count it as fast (140-150 range) since 4 balls are above 140 

 

Peak: 110, 115, 120, 125, 130, 135, Peak = 135. I would count it as a medium, since most of the balls are in 120-130 range, with a peak of 135 and low of 110

makes sense. Just wanted to clarify since people use different metrics for characterizing pace: mean, median, variance, etc.

[First class]

3 hours ago, zen said:

Avesh, Bhuvi, D Chahar, Harshal, & Thakur 

 

Ok in Indian conditions but need to field exciting pace bowlers 
 

This pace " battery" will not work in Australia , need to bring back your pacy ones. 

[zen]

1 hour ago, First class said:

This pace " battery" will not work in Australia , need to bring back your pacy ones. 

Ind has an old fashioned and safe mindset, which is counter intuitive to innovation.  It relies on tried and tested concepts, including judging and picking players based on almost pointless bilaterals in India, and often playing catch up. When the team heads to major events, it is taken back by innovation from other teams.

 

For a country that takes pride in its cricket culture and revenues, it has almost zero innovation - Tests, ODIs, T20s, white ball cricket, coloured clothing, power play, neutral umpire, 3rd umpire, DRS, broadcast innovations (Many Ind commentators are likely to pollute the commentary box), reverse swing, pink ball cricket, D&N cricket, etc., all come from elsewhere. India focuses on stuff that does not even help its own cricket in the long term like rank turners.
 

I won’t be surprised if India is caught off guard at another world event outside the subcon. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by zen

[Rantzz]

To be honest trundles can be okay if captained properly

 

most successful ipl team in csk has always employed an army of trundlesto good effect

[Jay]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Ind has an old fashioned and safe mindset, which is counter intuitive to innovation.  It relies on tried and tested concepts, including judging and picking players based on almost pointless bilaterals in India, and often playing catch up. When the team heads to major events, it is taken back by innovation from other teams.

 

For a country that takes pride in its cricket culture and revenues, it has almost zero innovation - Tests, ODIs, T20s, white ball cricket, coloured clothing, power play, neutral umpire, 3rd umpire, DRS, broadcast innovations (Many Ind commentators are likely to pollute the commentary box), reverse swing, pink ball cricket, D&N cricket, etc., all come from elsewhere. India focuses on stuff that does not even help its own cricket in the long term like rank turners.
 

I won’t be surprised if India is caught off guard at another world event outside the subcon. 

Bcci cares about one thing and one thing only. Who brings money to the table. You have many sycophant fans who grovel at the feet of these so called sooperstars. What do you expect? Ofcourse bcci will take advantage. Fans help put butts on seats for these so called stars. 

 

 

[Jay]

58 minutes ago, Rantzz said:

To be honest trundles can be okay if captained properly

 

most successful ipl team in csk has always employed an army of trundlesto good effect

Ya in Asia sure. Not in sena. 

[R!TTER]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Ya in Asia sure. Not in sena. 

No not really, a "pacer" like BK with control & movement is handy especially in UK/NZ/SA than say a spraygun Tait. It's when you can't do both consistently i.e. movement & control, without pace, is when you should be thrown away. Philander built a whole career with these traits.

[express bowling]

8 hours ago, Vijy said:

I don't think there has been a single bowler (and I've seen them quite regularly from 70s) who can repeatedly maintain an avg pace of 150+ in a 4-5 over spell, not even thommo, shoaib, and lee. I presume you are referring to peak speed here?

 

My take on avg speeds is the following:

 

90+ mph (145+ kph) - express

140-145 kph - fast

135 - 140 kph - quick/sharp

130 - 135 kph - trundler (borderline quick)

125 - 130 kph - sub-trundler (borderline trundler)

< 125 kph - unadcutter

 

@express bowling @Mosher thoughts?

 

 

 

As much as I love speed readings,  increasingly it is becoming clearer that ....

.... the ability to hurry batsmen consistently

.... the ability to extract life out of pitches and

.... the ability to bowl hostile short balls from time to time ...

are the keys to good quick bowling.

 

Personally, I am going back to the old fashioned pre-speedgun era pacer classification 

 

If you can do the above 3 then you are a Fast bowler.

 

If you can't then you are a Medium pacer.

 

I am looking for pacers who have 

 

1)  A quick fuller ball / good length ball that can get bowleds and LBWs.

2)  A back of a length ball that can rear up sharply and get the splice of the bat

3)  A good bouncer 

4)  A good channel ball

 

I am increasingly losing interest in pacers who do not possess the above weapons. 

 

.... Bumrah has all 4 weapons.

.... Shami had all 4 ... losing the 2nd type of ball after 2021

.... Siraj has balls 1, 3 and 4. Needs to develop ball 2.

.... Prasidh is a master of balls 2 and 3. Decent ball 4.  Has ball 1 too, but needs to improve it.

.... Umran has first 3.

.... Tyagi needs to improve ball 1 ( unless yorker )  and ball  4.

 

 

Our trundler army lack the first 3 deliveries and have only ball 4. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

 

As much as I love speed readings,  increasingly it is becoming clearer that ....

.... the ability to hurry batsmen consistently

.... the ability to extract life out of pitches and

.... the ability to bowl hostile short balls from time to time ...

are the keys to good quick bowling.

 

Personally, I am going back to the old fashioned pre-speedgun era pacer classification 

 

If you can do the above 3 then you are a Fast bowler.

 

If you can't then you are a Medium pacer.

 

I am looking for pacers who have 

 

1)  A quick fuller ball that can get bowled and LBWs.

2)  A back of a length ball that can rear up sharply and get the splice of the bat

3)  A good bouncer 

 

I am increasingly losing interest in pacers who do not possess the above weapons. 

 

.... Bumrah has all 3 weapons.

.... Shami had all 3 ... losing the 2nd type of ball after 2021

.... Siraj has balls 1 and 3. Needs to develop ball 2.

.... Prasidh is a master of balls 2 and 3. Has ball 1 too, but needs to improve it.

.... Umrann has all 3

.... Tyagi needs to improve ball 1

 

 

Our trundler army lack all these 3 deliveries.

Kartik struggles with good length bowling, has effective Yorker and lethal  bouncer.

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Kartik struggles with good length bowling, has effective Yorker and lethal  bouncer.

 

I have added a bit more to the last part of that post.

Edited February 21, 2022 by express bowling

[vvvslaxman]

31 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

 

As much as I love speed readings,  increasingly it is becoming clearer that ....

.... the ability to hurry batsmen consistently

.... the ability to extract life out of pitches and

.... the ability to bowl hostile short balls from time to time ...

are the keys to good quick bowling.

 

Personally, I am going back to the old fashioned pre-speedgun era pacer classification 

 

If you can do the above 3 then you are a Fast bowler.

 

If you can't then you are a Medium pacer.

 

I am looking for pacers who have 

 

1)  A quick fuller ball / good length ball that can get bowleds and LBWs.

2)  A back of a length ball that can rear up sharply and get the splice of the bat

3)  A good bouncer 

4)  A good channel ball

 

I am increasingly losing interest in pacers who do not possess the above weapons. 

 

.... Bumrah has all 4 weapons.

.... Shami had all 4 ... losing the 2nd type of ball after 2021

.... Siraj has balls 1, 3 and 4. Needs to develop ball 2.

.... Prasidh is a master of balls 2 and 3. Decent ball 4.  Has ball 1 too, but needs to improve it.

.... Umran has first 3.

.... Tyagi needs to improve ball 1 ( unless yorker )  and ball  4.

 

 

Our trundler army lack the first 3 deliveries and have only ball 4. 

India has no out and out quick bowlers.  Prasidh was trundling at 126 kph gasping for breath. Siraj is yet to prove in T20 at international level. They are slightly better than trundlers. I have not seen Umran bowl more than 2 or 3 over spell yet to see how fast he actually bowl over a period. Looks like his debut list A match was a horror show.  Without working brain you can have 10 different types of balls you can be good at, you will travel.  If you want to introduce a momentary doubt in batsman's mind you need to be clever not just put the ball with high clock speed.  Bumrah is a clever bowler. Malinga is an accurate bowler. None of these guys are masters of any ball. That is a big claim. Bumrah was very accurate with his yorkers before his injury. He was more or less a finished product.  Shami was good in ODI. IN T20 he is terrible.  As much as we all hate Bhuvi he has an incredible ER despite opening the bowling and bowling end overs.  

Bhuvi has career ER of 6.97

 

 vs Australia 6.21

vs England 6.97

vs NZ 8.32

vs Pakistan 7.21

vs SA 7.28

vs SL 6.42

vs WI 7.26

 

He is probably not the first choice for me either. But others have to prove it before we claim they are vastly superior to "trundlers". First of all they themselves are not express bowlers. Natrajan had a great T20 outing in Australia better than other bowlers. He was a trundler too.  Not supporting trundlers here. Just that we are hyping others without any proof. Others can go the same way as these guys or even worse.

[express bowling]

51 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India has no out and out quick bowlers.  Prasidh was trundling at 126 kph gasping for breath.

 

Prasidh was bowling 130 k to 142 k/ 143 k range in the just concluded ODI series.  Average speed of around 134 k / 135 k.

 

Rohit called his spells in the 2nd ODI as the quickest he has seen in India for a long time (  not in terms of release speeds but the effect on batsmen )

 

The 126 k balls were slower cutters.

 

 

Quote

Siraj is yet to prove in T20 at international level.

 

He has played just one T20I after he improved as a T20 pacer. And a grand total of 4 T20Is. How can he prove himself.

 

Quote

 

They are slightly better than trundlers. I have not seen Umran bowl more than 2 or 3 over spell yet to see how fast he actually bowl over a period. Looks like his debut list A match was a horror show. 

 

He has just been unearthed as a bowler and has to be developed. He is far from being a finished product.

 

Quote

Without working brain you can have 10 different types of balls you can be good at, you will travel. 

 

 

That's true.  I am not asking for dumb fast bowlers.

 

Quote

If you want to introduce a momentary doubt in batsman's mind you need to be clever not just put the ball with high clock speed. 

 

 

 

No one is wanting every ball at a high clock speed in T20s. But having that ability, while bowling yorkers and stump directed balls, does help a lot.

 

Quote

Bumrah is a clever bowler. Malinga is an accurate bowler. None of these guys are masters of any ball. That is a big claim.

 

 

Both Bumrah and Malinga are / were masters of the quick yorker. Bumrah is a master of the indipper and the bouncer too.

 

Quote

 Bumrah was very accurate with his yorkers before his injury. He was more or less a finished product.  Shami was good in ODI. IN T20 he is terrible.  As much as we all hate Bhuvi he has an incredible ER despite opening the bowling and bowling end overs.  

Bhuvi has career ER of 6.97

 

 vs Australia 6.21

vs England 6.97

vs NZ 8.32

vs Pakistan 7.21

vs SA 7.28

vs SL 6.42

vs WI 7.26

 

He is probably not the first choice for me either. But others have to prove it before we claim they are vastly superior to "trundlers". First of all they themselves are not express bowlers. Natrajan had a great T20 outing in Australia better than other bowlers. He was a trundler too.  Not supporting trundlers here. Just that we are hyping others without any proof. Others can go the same way as these guys or even worse.

 

 

How many non-trundlers, apart from Bumrah,  have played for India in white ball cricket in the last 5 years  ?

 

You cannot perform if you don't get to play.

 

Bhuvi has a good ER, but his wicket taking ability is not good enough. And, in big matches, it is almost impossible to win unless wickets are picked up. 

 

Often, we get misguided by wins in low key bilateral LOI series. While other teams are busy building teams for ICC tournaments, we are busy winning the bilaterals.

Edited February 21, 2022 by express bowling

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

We have poor genetics ,there isn't much you could do .On top of that there isn't much passion to bowl quick and scouting isn't good enough either.

 

 

 

Genetics is probably not the reason ... because we often have the quickest pacers at U19 level.

 

Lack of passion about fast bowling is THE reason.

 

Countries which have traditionally produced fast bowlers get depressed when their pacers are bowling at lower speeds, even when they are winning. In the test series in SA this time, their commentators kept on lamenting that Rabada was bowling 130-135 and Olivier was bowling 125-130, even though they were bowling well.

 

Other countries don't produce that many 145 k+ pacers either. But the ones they produce are treated as priceless and given as many opportunities and facilities as possible. While we don't give them chances in state teams. 

 

We ridicule such pacers if they fail in a couple of matches and / or sideline them. 

 

And ultimately, cricket had been dominated by teams with good fast bowlers.

[Norman]

"Could become"