Ravindra Jadeja vs Kapil Dev in Tests

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, mishra said:

 

Why was Kapil less motivated or why did he decided to not play against High School kids.

Same reason i used to not hand in my assignments but get 95% on the finals - people dont tend to be highly motivated to perform low quality tasks unless they are looking to pad their resume to cover for being **** at high quality tasks.

 

[Kron]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:12 AM, Muloghonto said:

He isnt good enough to be the third pacer in an alltime lineup. Marshall, Holding, McGrath, Garner, Ambrose, Donald, Steyn, Akram are ahead of him. 
Kapil was a better all-rounder than Imran 'in the present'. So was Botham. These two played most of their careers as players who can play as either bowler only or batter only for their teams, Imran wasn't good enough to get into the team as a batter only for the first half of his career and for the second half, wasnt good enough to be in the team as a bowler only.

Over the span of their entire careers, Imran scaled greater heights than kapil as a batsman and a bowler. This is the difference between looking at career stats and playing performances in real time.

 

Also, under no circumstances does Warne get into an alltime XI ahead of Murali. He is miles better in every single aspect - carrying the bowling alone, in spinning or non spinning pitches, control, consistency and variety.

 

McGrath is a legit selection, but i would still take Ambrose,Garner, Steyn & Akram ahead of him. 

 

Agree with everything except for steyn and wasim being better than mcg. no chance

 

As for the question, kapil is ahead of jadeja

 

Just cause you had a successful career doesnt mean you are a great player. 

 

Dont get me wrong jadeja is an ATG. Absolutely but he is not in kapils league. If he helps us win a series in eng or nz then i will agree. Or a wtc. 

[Majestic]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Same reason i used to not hand in my assignments but get 95% on the finals - people dont tend to be highly motivated to perform low quality tasks unless they are looking to pad their resume to cover for being **** at high quality tasks.

 

In 1980s, India were weaker team than below nations:-

 

1. Windies

2. Pakistan

3. New Zealand

4. Australia

5. England

 

Pretty rich of Kapil Dev to not perform vs so called weaker teams who actually were stronger than his own team. 

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, Kron said:

Agree with everything except for steyn and wasim being better than mcg. no chance

 

As for the question, kapil is ahead of jadeja

 

Just cause you had a successful career doesnt mean you are a great player. 

 

Dont get me wrong jadeja is an ATG. Absolutely but he is not in kapils league. If he helps us win a series in eng or nz then i will agree. Or a wtc. 

Jadeja is not helping us winning any test series away from home.

 

Kapil Dev won nothing too in tests.

[vvvslaxman]

23 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Jadeja is not helping us winning any test series away from home.

 

Kapil Dev won nothing too in tests.

He helped us win MCG test. He bowled brilliantly at the Adelaide oval. India should have won but for a little bit of umpiring.Took for 8 for 106 with a long spell.

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

He helped us win MCG test. He bowled brilliantly at the Adelaide oval. India should have won but for a little bit of umpiring.Took for 8 for 106 with a long spell.

Which Adelaide test?

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Majestic said:

Which Adelaide test?

 

I think 85 or 92 

[Vijy]

13 hours ago, Kron said:

Agree with everything except for steyn and wasim being better than mcg. no chance

 

As for the question, kapil is ahead of jadeja

 

Just cause you had a successful career doesnt mean you are a great player. 

 

Dont get me wrong jadeja is an ATG. Absolutely but he is not in kapils league. If he helps us win a series in eng or nz then i will agree. Or a wtc. 

steyn may have been on par with McG. Not wasim, who benefited from: (1) home umpires until mid 90s; (2) ball tampering (openly acknowledged in Pak team); (3) middle and lower order wkts.

[putrevus]

15 hours ago, Kron said:

Agree with everything except for steyn and wasim being better than mcg. no chance

 

As for the question, kapil is ahead of jadeja

 

Just cause you had a successful career doesnt mean you are a great player. 

 

Dont get me wrong jadeja is an ATG. Absolutely but he is not in kapils league. If he helps us win a series in eng or nz then i will agree. Or a wtc. 

Mcgrath and to some extent Ambrose get underrated as they never had wow factor like Steyn or Akram.

 

But they both were relentless , never gave an inch to any batsmen.They both could extract bounce due to their height .

 

Pity Ambrose never played tests in India

[Muloghonto]

13 hours ago, Majestic said:

In 1980s, India were weaker team than below nations:-

 

1. Windies

2. Pakistan

3. New Zealand

4. Australia

5. England

 

Pretty rich of Kapil Dev to not perform vs so called weaker teams who actually were stronger than his own team. 

irrelevant. 

Its indisuputable that West Indies was the best team of that era for both batting and bowling and if you don't perform against weak teams- it speaks of motivation issue. But if you dont perform against the best team, it means skill issue. Thats why a dude with career average of 50 with an average of 30 vs Austalia and 80 vs Bangladesh in current era is considered an inferior player than a guy averaging 50 with an average of 50 vs Australia and 40 vs Bangladesh.

 

 

Also, New Zealand were not a stronger team than India and neither was England- NZ was significantly worse, as their record show and England was about even.

 

[Muloghonto]

15 hours ago, Kron said:

Agree with everything except for steyn and wasim being better than mcg. no chance

 

As for the question, kapil is ahead of jadeja

 

Just cause you had a successful career doesnt mean you are a great player. 

 

Dont get me wrong jadeja is an ATG. Absolutely but he is not in kapils league. If he helps us win a series in eng or nz then i will agree. Or a wtc. 

Steyn was a better bowler than McGrath in his ability to run through the batting lineup, so was Akram. I include Akram in my XI over McGrath is because it gives the left arm variety and that is good enough to make up any actual 1v1 quality difference.

 

[Majestic]

Just now, Muloghonto said:

irrelevant. 

Its indisuputable that West Indies was the best team of that era for both batting and bowling and if you don't perform against weak teams- it speaks of motivation issue. But if you dont perform against the best team, it means skill issue. Thats why a dude with career average of 50 with an average of 30 vs Austalia and 80 vs Bangladesh in current era is considered an inferior player than a guy averaging 50 with an average of 50 vs Australia and 40 vs Bangladesh.

 

 

Also, New Zealand were not a stronger team than India and neither was England- NZ was significantly worse, as their record show and England was about even.

 

NZ were significantly better.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=percentage_won;spanmax1=31+Dec+1989;spanmin1=01+Jan+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

[Muloghonto]

49 minutes ago, Majestic said:

NZ were significantly better.

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=percentage_won;spanmax1=31+Dec+1989;spanmin1=01+Jan+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

Far worse outside of oceania than India's was. So no. Also, the period in question is from 1972-1991. Not 1980-1989

 

 

Edited March 2 by Muloghonto

[Majestic]

15 hours ago, Majestic said:

In 1980s, India were weaker team than below nations:-

 

1. Windies

2. Pakistan

3. New Zealand

4. Australia

5. England

 

Pretty rich of Kapil Dev to not perform vs so called weaker teams who actually were stronger than his own team. 

 

56 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Far worse outside of oceania than India's was. So no. Also, the period in question is from 1972-1991. Not 1980-1989

 

 

No, the period in question is 80s. Lol at 72-91 , Kapil debuted in '78 himself. 

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

Far worse outside of oceania than India's was. So no. Also, the period in question is from 1972-1991. Not 1980-1989

 

 

Kapil Dev's away average with bat is 26 and bowl Avg is 33. Imran's away average with bat is 33. An absolutely ridiculous difference of 7. How do we deal against this?

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;orderby=runs;qualmin2=100;qualval2=wickets;template=results;type=allround

Edited March 2 by Majestic

[Muloghonto]

16 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Kapil Dev's away average with bat is 26 and bowl Avg is 33. Imran's away average with bat is 33. An absolutely ridiculous difference of 7. How do we deal against this?

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;orderby=runs;qualmin2=100;qualval2=wickets;template=results;type=allround

 

As i said, my main concern with Imran is he was a poor batsman and a great bowler who became a decent batsman and an average bowler in the end of his career. 

A guy who averages 20 with the bat and 20 with the ball for 50 matches and then averages 40 with bat and 30 with ball will have an overall better average than the guy who averages 25 with ball and 30 with bat throughout his career, but the latter guy is actually a better all rounder at any given moment. This is why i rate Kapil and Botham as better allrounders than Imran. 

29 minutes ago, Majestic said:

 

No, the period in question is 80s. Lol at 72-91 , Kapil debuted in '78 himself. 

 

If you are gonna compare Imran-Kapil-Botham-Hadlee, you need to include their ENTIRE careers, which means early 70s to mid 90s.

Your performances against the best teams of your era means you have to include their entire careers, not just a segment of it.

 

[Kron]

6 hours ago, Vijy said:

steyn may have been on par with McG. Not wasim, who benefited from: (1) home umpires until mid 90s; (2) ball tampering (openly acknowledged in Pak team); (3) middle and lower order wkts.

Agree better than wasim

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

 

As i said, my main concern with Imran is he was a poor batsman and a great bowler who became a decent batsman and an average bowler in the end of his career. 

A guy who averages 20 with the bat and 20 with the ball for 50 matches and then averages 40 with bat and 30 with ball will have an overall better average than the guy who averages 25 with ball and 30 with bat throughout his career, but the latter guy is actually a better all rounder at any given moment. This is why i rate Kapil and Botham as better allrounders than Imran. 

 

If you are gonna compare Imran-Kapil-Botham-Hadlee, you need to include their ENTIRE careers, which means early 70s to mid 90s.

Your performances against the best teams of your era means you have to include their entire careers, not just a segment of it.

 

Okay got it. To conclude, Jadeja is the best ever. 

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, Majestic said:

Okay got it. To conclude, Jadeja is the best ever. 

I didn't say that either.

 

[Majestic]

Kapil's bowling can be comparable to Botham but his batting was a level below Botham who got 14 hundreds in 100 tests compared to Kapil's 8 hundreds in 130 tests.

 

Kapil's fans main selling point remains his performance vs Windies but there are no defense point for his failures vs high school kids opponents( like New Zealand, Pakistan, England etc) who all were better than his own team during his career.