Ravindra Jadeja vs Kapil Dev in Tests

[Frustrated]

10 hours ago, Jaydev_Unadkat said:

Kapil paaji will wipe his kitchen floor with tukka players like Jadeja. Jadeja is utterly useless on anything other than a turner and his selfish timid nature is another turn off

 

Just coz you have access to free internet doesnt mean you can write crap and insult one of the GOATS of cricket.

Although I disagree with your views on most trundlers & glorification of their skill set (Referring to mainly Mukesh and Bhuvi)

Here I totally agree with u on Fraudeja.  It's an utter disgrace to mention him in the same sentence as Kapil Dev. 

[Majestic]

Imran Khan won the World Cup batting at 3 and scored 72 vs the runners up in Finals while Dev bashed the minnowesque Zimbabwe in semi finals. 

 

There are two different things. Even Maxwell smashed the hell out of Afghanistan in World Cup but there is a place for a guy who performed in World Cup final setting up a total with its team two down early and winning it vs a top side.

 

Irrespective of all that, let's discuss test batting and test all rounder here. That was the point of discussion. Don't make statements like Kapil played match winning knocks which other can't imagine by mentioning an ODI knock in a test discussion.

Edited February 24 by Majestic

[putrevus]

11 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Kapil for me will always be the greatest allrounder ever from India.

 

Stats aside he was from that era when BCCi was severely unprofessional, poor and had no love for the fast bowlers. While there were likes of Salgaonkar, Mohammad Nissar & Amar Singh..the true revolution of fast bowling was brought by Kapil Dev.

 

Nowadays, BCCI has a lot better support facilities for the players, had Kapil not won the ODI WC, this nation might not have found their love for the game of cricket. 

Kapil never had luxury of playing country cricket by skipping Indian tests nor did ever got to know about reverse wing till very late in his career.

 

Imran peak series  was when took 40 wickets against India in 1982, in the same series without any aid of umpires plus bottle caps and reverse swing Kapil took 24 wickets.

 

Kapil dev vs Imran khan in 1978-79 India Pakistan series was no match, when Kapil dominated with both bat and ball.

 

IMO if Kapil had known reverse swing, he would have ended under 25 avg even with knee surgery.

 

Imran was still better bowler but he was not in the same class as Kapil in batting.

[singhvivek141]

7 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Batting averages in away and neutral venues :-

 

Imran - 33

Botham - 31

Kapil - 26

Hadlee - 25

 

Now what you make of this?

 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;home_or_away=3;orderby=batting_average;qualmin2=100;qualval2=wickets;template=results;type=allround

Please adjust the "Pakistani Umpire" factor

Kapil avg 20 in Pak with bowl and 52 with bat...do same for others.

While curtail the stats for Imran accordingly

 

I haven't yet included the "ball tempering" stats here. If I do that as well then Imran Khan's stat would be 3 times worse in his home country.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

Imran Khan won the World Cup batting at 3 and scored 72 vs the runners up in Finals while Dev bashed the minnowesque Zimbabwe in semi finals. 

 

There are two different things. Even Maxwell smashed the hell out of Afghanistan in World Cup but there is a place for a guy who performed in World Cup final setting up a total with its team two down early and winning it vs a top side.

 

Irrespective of all that, let's discuss test batting and test all rounder here. That was the point of discussion. Don't make statements like Kapil played match winning knocks which other can't imagine by mentioning an ODI knock in a test discussion.

No that was won by Wasim Akram .Imran screwed Pakistan by batting at number 3 when better batsmen were there.

 

 

[singhvivek141]

10 hours ago, Jaydev_Unadkat said:

Kapil paaji will wipe his kitchen floor with tukka players like Jadeja. Jadeja is utterly useless on anything other than a turner and his selfish timid nature is another turn off

 

Just coz you have access to free internet doesnt mean you can write crap and insult one of the GOATS of cricket.

Good to know that there is some hope with you.

Or maybe it's an example of even a broken clocks hits right time twice a day.

 

Whatever it's that, I agree with you here. Kapil Paaji is the elite allrounder from this country...one in a billion. 

[Majestic]

5 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Please adjust the "Pakistani Umpire" factor

Kapil avg 20 in Pak with bowl and 52 with bat...do same for others.

While curtail the stats for Imran accordingly

 

I haven't yet included the "ball tempering" stats here. If I do that as well then Imran Khan's stat would be 3 times worse in his home country.

I have just taken that out of the equation by looking at everyone's away and neutral numbers. Surely umpires outside Pakistan weren't helping Imran either. I have already showed you the away stats and Kapil's numbers are way lesser than his actual ones. Rest I don't get what stats you are throwing here, what is this illogical imaginary two times or three times stuff? In reality, Using away numbers make Kapil look even worse batsman.

 

Everyone tampered with the ball then. It's a pointless discussion, nobody stopped Kapil from doing it too. He didn't knew anything about reverse swing.

 

 

[Majestic]

10 minutes ago, putrevus said:

No that was won by Wasim Akram .Imran screwed Pakistan by batting at number 3 when better batsmen were there.

 

 

No, Imran batted superbly. That was 1992, not 2022.

 

Miandad who is Pakistan's best batsman batted poorly. Imran batted really well. Now,tell me how is Kapil better than Imran or Botham in Tests?

Edited February 24 by Majestic

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

No, Imran batted superbly. That was 1992, not 2022.

 

Miandad who is Pakistan's best batsman batted poorly. Imran batted really well. Now,tell me how is Kapil better than Imran or Botham in Tests?

No he batted like an idiot, he was saved by Moin and Wasim. England was winning that match in canter if not for Inzi s quick runs along with late Akram's hitting.

 

Imran was plodder who was as useless as they come in odis. He was never in same class as Kapil in batting or allrounder.

Edited February 24 by putrevus

[Majestic]

5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

No he batted like an idiot, he was saved by Moin and Wasim. England was winning that match in canter if not nor Wasim's quick runs along with late Moin's hitting.

 

Imran was plodder who was as useless as they come in odis. He was never in same class as Kapil in batting or allrounder.

How?

 

This is like saying Gambhir and Kohli batted in WC Final 2011 like an idiot and Dhoni saved them. You are just being hell biased. Miandad maybe batted a tad slower, it is ridiculous to deny the quality of Imran's knock.

 

It was a top class knock from a no.3 in World Cup Final, India probably expected the same from their #3 but as usual the guy choked and his fans have the audacity to call out a World Cup winner and #3 setting up the tone handsomely as the one batting like an idiot.

 

Imran is miles ahead of Kapil as all rounder and probably a better test batter too with an average +6 higher although we Indian fans can't accept it and will deny that no matter how ridiculous we may sound.

Edited February 24 by Majestic

[putrevus]

43 minutes ago, Majestic said:

How?

 

This is like saying Gambhir and Kohli batted in WC Final 2011 like an idiot and Dhoni saved them. You are just being hell biased. Miandad maybe batted a tad slower, it is ridiculous to deny the quality of Imran's knock.

 

It was a top class knock from a no.3 in World Cup Final, India probably expected the same from their #3 but as usual the guy choked and his fans have the audacity to call out a World Cup winner and #3 setting up the tone handsomely as the one batting like an idiot.

 

Imran is miles ahead of Kapil as all rounder and probably a better test batter too with an average +6 higher although we Indian fans can't accept it and will deny that no matter how ridiculous we may sound.

No because they were better batsman in the hut and he was unable to even rotate strike which again curtailed javed's bating.

 

Inzi gave the momentum to the innings and then karam finish it. They won despite of Imran useless innings.

 

He had no business of batting at number 3. They won by 27 runs, and that useless template ruined Pakistan cricket forever.

 

If not for Wasim Akram's magic deliveries, England was winning the match.

 

Gambhir and Kohli bated with Sr close run under SR. But they were chasing.

 

No Imran is not even in same class as  kapil Dev as allrounder.He was a tailender who could bat for most part of his career.

 

Your theory of Imran being better than Kapil as allounder is as laughable as  Sehwag becoming better batsman than Sachin as Sehwag's avg is 91 in Pakistan vs Sachin's avg of 40.

Edited February 24 by putrevus

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

I have just taken that out of the equation by looking at everyone's away and neutral numbers. Surely umpires outside Pakistan weren't helping Imran either. I have already showed you the away stats and Kapil's numbers are way lesser than his actual ones. Rest I don't get what stats you are throwing here, what is this illogical imaginary two times or three times stuff? In reality, Using away numbers make Kapil look even worse batsman.

 

Everyone tampered with the ball then. It's a pointless discussion, nobody stopped Kapil from doing it too. He didn't knew anything about reverse swing.

 

 

of the 4 ARs of that era, they clearly favored the Boorish Beefy and the Elite BlueBlood Imran. I have seen tests where kapil was denied LBW dismissals that were awarded to Imran.

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

No because they were better batsman in the hut and he was unable to even rotate strike which again curtailed javed's bating.

 

Inzi gave the momentum to the innings and then karam finish it. They won despite of Imran useless innings.

 

He had no business of batting at number 3. They won by 27 runs, and that useless template ruined Pakistan cricket forever.

 

If not for Wasim Akram's magic deliveries, England was winning the match.

 

Gambhir and Kohli bated with Sr close run under SR. But they were chasing.

 

No Imran is not even in same class as  kapil Dev as allrounder.He was a tailender who could bat for most part of his career.

 

Your theory of Imran being better than Kapil as allounder is as laughable as  Sehwag becoming better batsman than Sachin as Sehwag's avg is 91 in Pakistan vs Sachin's avg of 40.

It's the other way around.

 

Kapil is like Sehwag.

Imran is like Dravid.

 

You know who you would pick in Test cricket.

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

of the 4 ARs of that era, they clearly favored the Boorish Beefy and the Elite BlueBlood Imran. I have seen tests where kapil was denied LBW dismissals that were awarded to Imran.

Won't make much of a difference.

 

Away averages tells us all the story.

 

Imran - 33

Botham - 31

Kapil - 26

Hadlee - 25

[Vijy]

47 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Won't make much of a difference.

 

Away averages tells us all the story.

 

Imran - 33

Botham - 31

Kapil - 26

Hadlee - 25

so, if you go only by stats, then I presume you will say that aubrey faulkner is the greatest AR of all time.

[Majestic]

4 minutes ago, Vijy said:

so, if you go only by stats, then I presume you will say that aubrey faulkner is the greatest AR of all time.

No. Faulkner isn't the greatest AR, that's Sobers. 

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

No. Faulkner isn't the greatest AR, that's Sobers. 

why not? faulkner had a much better WPI, better bowling SR, and better bowling avg than Sobers. And he avg > 40 with the bat and < 30 with the ball, the only one to do so.

 

shows the limitations of statistics. It would proclaim him better than Miller, Sobers, Imran, etc.

Edited February 24 by Vijy

[Majestic]

14 minutes ago, Vijy said:

why not? faulkner had a much better WPI, better bowling SR, and better bowling avg than Sobers. And he avg > 40 with the bat and < 30 with the ball, the only one to do so.

 

shows the limitations of statistics. It would proclaim him better than Miller, Sobers, Imran, etc.

He played for South Africa back when they were minnows. 

 

All rounders are ultimately rated for how good they were in their first skill assuming they are good enough to create an impact with second skill too.

 

Imran has 6 hundreds in 88 tests.

 

Kapil has 8 in 134 tests. 

 

Imran averages +6 higher than Kapil with bat.

 

Imran also has more RPI than Kapil excluding the not outs. Ideally, one shouldn't discount the not outs but even if we do that, Imran has higher RPI than Kapil.

 

Imran has much better away average than Kapil in Tests.

 

To conclude, there are enough evidences to say that Imran was arguably a better bat than Kapil and if not better then more or less at same level. We are not talking about their hitting ability with bat but performance. Even Dravid cannot hit a 300 of 300 balls like Sehwag, that's not what you rate players on in Tests.

Edited February 24 by Majestic

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

He played for South Africa back when they were minnows. 

 

All rounders are ultimately rated for how good they were in their first skill assuming they are good enough to create an impact with second skill too.

 

Imran has 6 hundreds in 88 tests.

 

Kapil has 8 in 134 tests. 

 

Imran averages +6 higher than Kapil with bat.

 

Imran also has more RPI than Kapil excluding the not outs. Ideally, one shouldn't discount the not outs but even if we do that, Imran has higher RPI than Kapil.

 

Imran has much better away average than Kapil in Tests.

 

To conclude, there are enough evidences to say that Imran was arguably a better bat than Kapil and if not better then more or less at same level. We are not talking about their hitting ability with bat but performance. Even Dravid cannot hit a 300 of 300 balls like Sehwag, that's not what you rate players on in Tests.

I do consider Imran better than Kapil in Tests overseas, though not by as much a margin as the numbers say. as for evaluating imran in home conditions, I don't take them seriously for various reasons.

[Muloghonto]

7 hours ago, Majestic said:

@Vijy@putrevus @Muloghonto

 

Kapil Dev - 5284/131 = 40.33

Imran Khan - 3807/88 = 43.26

Botham - 5200/102 = 51

Vettori - 4531/113 = 40.10

 

Let's throw the not outs of the equation. Let's compare now by runs per match.

 

Guess what, Kapil Dev is wayy wayy behind Botham and also behind Imran. He is a marginally better than Vettori, haha the tailender Vettori for first half 

 

 

 

But kapil didnt score his runs against high school kids and then lay a turd like botham against real competition. So botham loses to Kapil as a batsman. 

As i said, you dont get to be better than me if you beat up on bangladesh and do far worse than me vs australia of these days.

 

Botham was a lesser batsman is why he couldnt score against better opposition and far more inconsistent than Kapil.