Who is India's best pacer of all-time in Tests, ODIs and T20Is?

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Kapil did as a captain, not as a bowler. here the thread is about fast bowlers. 

As fast bowler Kapil bowled Aussies out defending 140 for 85 taking 5/18 in Melbourne. 

 

Won 1985 finals in Benson & Hedges World Championship of Cricket with ball taking 3/20 something against Pakistan.

 

Bumrah is better bowler but he is big choker.

[Lord]

13 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Bumrah has much better bowling averages, better wickets per match and much better SRs in both Tests and ODIs compared to Kapil.

small sample

[zen]

Kapil Dev is probably among the weakest pacers in the group of top pacers from India. 
 

Even in Melbourne in 1981, one of his rare good performances, the hard work was done by Ghavri and Doshi, who picked up the top order wickets. And then Kapil got the tail - Link

[zen]

35 minutes ago, Lord said:

small sample

But Kapil has a large same size to be ruled out 

[Majestic]

Kapil Dev after 62 tests :

 

Wickets - 247

AVG - 27

 

And he played 62 tests in first 5 years. I would only rate anyone better than Kapil in modern era if he takes 300 test wickets at 25 or less.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

small sample

 

1.  You talked about Kapil having better performances than Bumrah.  I just showed that that is not the case. 

 

2.  30 tests and 72 ODIs is not a small sample size.  There have been ATGs who have played 40 odd tests. 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Kapil Dev after 62 tests :

 

Wickets - 247

AVG - 27

 

And he played 62 tests in first 5 years. I would only rate anyone better than Kapil in modern era if he takes 300 test wickets at 25 or less.

 

FYI,

 

Kapil averaged 27.70, which is 28, a high average relative to many of the other bowlers.  The majority of those wickets were picked up in India (151 at an avg of 24). Away he picked up only 96 wickets at 33.

 

Btw, Botham too played 61 tests in that period to average 25 and pick up 267 wickets. 

 

 

 

 

[Lord]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

1.  You talked about Kapil having better performances than Bumrah.  I just showed that that is not the case. 

 

2.  30 tests and 72 ODIs is not a small sample size.  There have been ATGs who have played 40 odd tests. 

Performance obviously means over a substantial sample size.

 

Which ATG has played only 30 Tests?

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Lord said:

Performance obviously means over a substantial sample size.

 

Which ATG has played only 30 Tests?

Sydney Barnes for e.g.  … Shane Bond for NZ 

 

Though no Indian pace bowler is of global ATG status yet so the fans are only picking from available options and based on whatever skills and performances are available. 

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

Sydney Barnes for e.g.  … Shane Bond for NZ 

 

Though no Indian pace bowler is of global ATG status yet so the fans are only picking from available options and based on whatever skills and performances are available. 

Bond is not ATG

 

Barnes is from Amatuer era. He's given the status due to insane average,literally has to be the best.

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Lord said:

Bond is not ATG

 

Barnes is from Amatuer era. He's given the status due to insane average,literally has to be the best.

Bond is for NZ (and better bowler than Kapil can ever dream to be) much like Kapil is considered for India (not many will will consider him as an ATG as bowler alone. In fact, he was laughed at when he got those 430 odd wickets).

 

Per current generation, the cricket played by Kapil is from a different era too (He is likely to get smashed in PP).

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Bond is for NZ (and better bowler than Kapil can ever dream to be) much like Kapil is considered for India (not many will will consider him as an ATG as bowler alone. In fact, he was laughed at when he got those 430 odd wickets).

 

Per current generation, the cricket played by Kapil is from a different era too (He is likely to get smashed in PP).

Bond at best is NZ great. Just played 18 Tests, only 2 in Asia where he failed.Largely a SENW bully. Smashed in Aus too. Even then he got 87 wickets. Yasir Shah got to 100 in 17.Is he ATG too?

 

Nothing to suggest Kapil would have been smashed or Bond's better .

 

 

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Lord said:

Bond at best is NZ great. Just played 18 Tests, only 2 in Asia where he failed.Largely a SENW bully. Smashed in Aus too. Even then he got 87 wickets. Yasir Shah got to 100 in 17.Is he ATG too?

 

Nothing to suggest Kapil would have been smashed or Bond's better .

 

 

One only has to watch them bowl  (whatever Bond’s weaknesses, he is still better than Kapil)

 

Kapil is a second tier bowler.  Not even good enough to even get into an India ATG 11 for his bowling (as an AR, yes). 
 

 

[Lord]

33 minutes ago, zen said:

One only has to watch them bowl  (whatever Bond’s weaknesses, he is still better than Kapil)

 

Kapil is a second tier bowler.  Not even good enough to even get into an India ATG 11 for his bowling (as an AR, yes). 
 

 

 

Bond spent most of his career on hospital bed. 

 

Didn't have usual peaks and troughs of a career. So tough to call him great.

 

Good to watch yes but doesnt make him ATG

[zen]

23 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Bond spent most of his career on hospital bed. 

 

Didn't have usual peaks and troughs of a career. So tough to call him great.

 

Good to watch yes but doesnt make him ATG

 

That is the irony - a bowler who pushes himself for his teams and gets injured can get brushed aside, while a bowler who goes at 60-70% in games, trying to avoid injuries, and playing as many matches as he can, gets mentioned for his stats. 

 

As for Bond, he is an NZ ATG bowler based on what he has showcased. A Graeme Pollock, along with Barry Richards, is an ATG for SA. Depending on perspectives such as a career cut short by circumstances not in their hands, they can be perceived as world ATG players as well. 

 

While Kapil can be seen as an Indian ATG, he isn't a world ATG bowler despite the number of games he has played (the large sample works against him) ... Similarly, Vaas isn't either, even though he is a local ATG i.e. ATG for SL. Malinga, who has played 30 tests, can be a local ATG too ... Even Bumrah, based on what he has done so far, can be seen as a local ATG (that does not mean he competes with Marshall, etc., at tier 1 world level) based on what his team has produced over the years. 

 

There is no formula here. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by zen

[Lord]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

 

That is the irony - a bowler who pushes himself for his teams and gets injured can get brushed aside, while a bowler who goes at 60-70% in games, trying to avoid injuries, and playing as many matches as he can, gets mentioned for his stats. 

 

As for Bond, he is an NZ ATG bowler based on what he has showcased. A Graeme Pollock, along with Barry Richards, is an ATG for SA. Depending on perspectives such as a career cut short by circumstances not in their hands, they can be perceived as world ATG players as well. 

 

While Kapil can be seen as an Indian ATG, he isn't a world ATG bowler despite the number of games he has played (the large sample works against him). Similarly, Vaas isn't either, even though he is a local ATG i.e. ATG for SL ... Even Bumrah, based on what he has done so far, can be seen as a local ATG (that does not mean he competes with Marshall, etc., at tier 1 world level) based on what his team has produced over the years. 

 

There is no formula here. 

 

 

 

 

No one is avoiding injury. Bowlers as quick as Bond have had far longer careers. Marshall,Steyn,Waqar etc. Bond is nowhere near them simply because he did it for far less. Unfortunate,but thats how it is.

 

Kapil/Vaas/McG etc bowled slower but that was their optimum speed. I don't think they held back intentionally to prolong careers.

[putrevus]

An idiot who thinks Hardik  Pandya is some great player will not understand the greatness and value of what Kapil  means to Indian cricket.

 

To all those morons who think Kapil was an inferior bowler have no understanding of Indian cricket. Kapil was lone warrior who played thru all sorts niggles and was strike and stock bowler in one without any support bowlers or system.

 

He did not even have good spinners to back him at home.He never missed one test due to injury.

 

Bumrah has missed more matches than he played for India and in all important matches he played he laid an egg everytime in big spot.

 

Kapil is the reason why young men were getting attracted to fast bowling in India.

 

 

Availability to play is the biggest virtue for any player.Kapil was like Iron man always there to do the hard yards.

 

 

 

 

[zen]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

No one is avoiding injury. Bowlers as quick as Bond have had far longer careers. Marshall,Steyn,Waqar etc. Bond is nowhere near them simply because he did it for far less. Unfortunate,but thats how it is.

 

Kapil/Vaas/McG etc bowled slower but that was their optimum speed. I don't think they held back intentionally to prolong careers.

 

I think you should "read" the post. 

 

As for Kapil, on many occasions, he has gone through the motions. Even in fielding, he has hardly dived on the field (though that was not common during his time this shows that modern cricketers have more dimensions to work at and therefore more dimensions to get injured). 

 

Bond was an express pace bowler. He functions on additional dimensions where injuries can cut short a career.  Dennis Lillee survived a back injury (many thought he would not come back) to cut down on pace but he did push himself too (so bowling slow has not been equated with going through motions as you have posted above. A bowler can push himself or go through motions irrespective of his bowling speed). 

 

 

 

[zen]

Talking about Kapil's workload: 

 

He played from 1978 to 1994, which is roughly 16 years. 

 

131 tests, 225 ODIs 

 

On average, which is 8 tests and 14 ODIs per year. For a period of time, tests even had a rest day! 

 

Talking about just fielding, even overseas where grounds were relatively lush, Kapil Dev hardly if ever slid, dived, etc., on the field (I don't recall ever seeing him do that). 

 

 

Today, top Indian cricketers play 14-17 intense games just in IPL, traveling to and fro b/w games. Someone like a KW got injured in the opening game trying to save a 6. PS add to that injuries to KL, Dhawan, Topley, etc. 

 

In 2022, India played 40 T20s, IPL, 24 ODIs, and 7 Tests! It is amazing that today's cricketers are able to play so much (and with so much travel), go all out on the field, and still play these many games. 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

8 hours ago, zen said:

 

FYI,

 

Kapil averaged 27.70, which is 28, a high average relative to many of the other bowlers.  The majority of those wickets were picked up in India (151 at an avg of 24). Away he picked up only 96 wickets at 33.

 

Btw, Botham too played 61 tests in that period to average 25 and pick up 267 wickets. 

 

 

 

 

That alone is a greater career than Zaheer Khan, Mohammad Shami and Javagal Srinath with more wickets than latter two and better average considering that there was no support from spinners like Kumble, Harbhajan, Ashwin or Jadeja in case of Kapil Dev.

 

Most fast bowlers fail to maintain their best performance when the sample is huge. That is a very common feature and hence longevity plays an important role when it comes to greatness of a fast bowler.

 

Bumrah has an action which is very injury prone and it is apparent with the fact that at age of 29, he has barely played 30 tests. Kapil played every single test match with no assistance from any other pacer or spinner over a decent period and managed 400+ wickets under 30 average which is alone excellent as a bowler.

 

I am not saying Bumrah can't surpass him but he would need to breach the 250 test wicket mark to achieve that stature.