Irani Trophy, Oct 01 - 05, Rajkot

[singhvivek141]

18 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

That's why our domestic needs reform.  South Zone attack destroyed everyone in Deodhar and nobody can be sure whether it is really good bowling of the fact that batters suck even more .

 

Or maybe it's the pitches or kookaburra doing too much. 

 

Regardless, a 6 team structure is highly overdue. 

 

 

This can only make sense if our selection process is right.

Our selectors will choose midget trundlers who will bowl 125k.

[putrevus]

Another genius who thinks he knows better than everyone else. 6 teams in country with 1.5 billion is sure way of killing cricket in the country.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by putrevus

[Lord]

What's budhau Pujara doing in this? It should be for youngsters

[putrevus]

9 minutes ago, Lord said:

What's budhau Pujara doing in this? It should be for youngsters

He is playing for Saurashtra, there is nothing wrong. ROI should be for young players.

[Nikhil_cric]

4 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

This can only make sense if our selection process is right.

Our selectors will choose midget trundlers who will bowl 125k.

Which is why we need a franchise model with incentives in place for winning the tournaments. Structured lik the IPL but for 50 overs cricket at least if not for first class.  

 

These 6 teams can get the best analysts, coaches and S&C guys and will always develop the best players for specific roles and identify the players needed for that. You can't do that if there are too many teams. Provide high quality ball-tracking data for the matches and basically give each team the license to construct their own templates and empower them to do whatever is necessary to win with minimal interference from state associations and BCCI.  basically, make sure that each of these teams has access to all resources that Team India has access to.    We can't do that for all 32 teams in domestic.  And there's just not enough elite talent in this country to have such a big system anyway.    

 

If you incentivise franchises and their coaches and analysts enough, they'll find ways to get the best 90 white ball players into 6 squads.  

 

 

Vijay Hazare can continue to be played.

 

Deodhar alone can be franchised out into 6 teams and can be division 1 of domestic List A. Those who play Deodhar need not play VH. 

 

 

[MediumPacer]

22 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

This can only make sense if our selection process is right.

Our selectors will choose midget trundlers who will bowl 125k.

In Duleep trophy likes of chintan gaja and vasuki kaushik were the pacers, without improving the pitches not much will change.

[MediumPacer]

1 minute ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Which is why we need a franchise model with incentives in place for winning the tournaments. Structured lik the IPL but for 50 overs cricket at least if not for first class.  

 

These 6 teams can get the best analysts, coaches and S&C guys and will always develop the best players for specific roles and identify the players needed for that. You can't do that if there are too many teams. Provide high quality ball-tracking data for the matches and basically give each team the license to construct their own templates and empower them to do whatever is necessary to win with minimal interference from state associations and BCCI.  basically, make sure that each of these teams has access to all resources that Team India has access to.    We can't do that for all 32 teams in domestic.  And there's just not enough elite talent in this country to have such a big system anyway.    

 

If you incentivise franchises and their coaches and analysts enough, they'll find ways to get the best 90 white ball players into 6 squads.  

 

 

Vijay Hazare can continue to be played.

 

Deodhar alone can be franchised out into 6 teams and can be division 1 of domestic List A. Those who play Deodhar need not play VH. 

 

 

Franchise will encourage more spin and turning tracks to get the results in our conditions.

[Nikhil_cric]

5 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

Franchise will encourage more spin and turning tracks to get the results in our conditions.

Er no. That's in T20s where spin is crucial. 

 

Even then, they'll have to pick at least 4 seamers per squad if what you say happens 

That's 24 seamers.  And they'll have to pick the best.

 

That's a lot for Team India to pick from.

 

 

[MediumPacer]

1 minute ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Er no. That's in T20s where spin is crucial. 

 

Even then, they'll have to pick at least 4 seamers per squad if what you say happens 

That's 24 seamers.  And they'll have to pick the best.

 

That's a lot for Team India to pick from.

 

 

Spin is king in india,2 quality spinners are enough and a support pacer like unadkat or mukesh or kaverappa ,there is no need to experiment on such tracks with the likes of umran or harshit with only 6 teams available.

[MediumPacer]

15 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Er no. That's in T20s where spin is crucial. 

 

Even then, they'll have to pick at least 4 seamers per squad if what you say happens 

That's 24 seamers.  And they'll have to pick the best.

 

That's a lot for Team India to pick from.

 

 

16 out of 19 wickets to spinners uptill now.

[Nikhil_cric]

Just now, MediumPacer said:

Spin is king in india,2 quality spinners are enough and a support pacer like unadkat or mukesh or kaverappa ,there is no need to experiment on such tracks with the likes of umran or harshit with only 6 teams available.

Sure . Is that why India is playing 3 seamers + Pandya in a World Cup held in India.

 

Also , none of the seamers were support bowlers . They were the ones breaking the games open . For South Zone, Kaverappa and Koushik were going the damage up front in most matches not Kishore. 

 

Mayank Yadav for North Zone .

 

 

The spinners were clearing playing the support role. 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

4 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

16 out of 19 wickets to spinners uptill now.

What are you talking about here? 

[singhvivek141]

43 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Which is why we need a franchise model with incentives in place for winning the tournaments. Structured lik the IPL but for 50 overs cricket at least if not for first class.  

 

These 6 teams can get the best analysts, coaches and S&C guys and will always develop the best players for specific roles and identify the players needed for that. You can't do that if there are too many teams. Provide high quality ball-tracking data for the matches and basically give each team the license to construct their own templates and empower them to do whatever is necessary to win with minimal interference from state associations and BCCI.  basically, make sure that each of these teams has access to all resources that Team India has access to.    We can't do that for all 32 teams in domestic.  And there's just not enough elite talent in this country to have such a big system anyway.    

 

If you incentivise franchises and their coaches and analysts enough, they'll find ways to get the best 90 white ball players into 6 squads.  

 

 

Vijay Hazare can continue to be played.

 

Deodhar alone can be franchised out into 6 teams and can be division 1 of domestic List A. Those who play Deodhar need not play VH. 

 

 

This system will not succeed unless we change our pitches.

What we need is the 2 tier structure of tournaments...

First zone wise teams will compete each other...this will not allow the weaker teams from North East to be mauled by Mumbai or Karnataka, Assam should also be part of the North East Zone

Then the best 18 from each zone should play amongst each other for the final cup

 

The inter zonal matches should be broadcasted with proper kit and speedometers in place (selectors should be mandated to watch these matches , atleast from the zones playing the game).

 

The grounds for inter zonal matches should be of all types (Green Top, bouncy, flat, spin assist), this will assess the quality of players on different pitches. 

 

We should award the bowlers who are able to bowl quickest, for spinners those who get maximum turn in degree should be awarded at the end of the every match and then one big award at the end of season. Special incentives for the players who are allrounders, no useless rules like "power player" or "super sub".

 

Ranji should be the priority, followed by Vijay Hazare/Deodhar & then the T20 version. Following this template will keep our domestic players kinda occupied for the entire year.

Edited October 2, 2023 by singhvivek141

[MediumPacer]

4 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Sure . Is that why India is playing 3 seamers + Pandya in a World Cup held in India.

 

Also , none of the seamers were support bowlers . They were the ones breaking the games open . For South Zone, Kaverappa and Koushik were going the damage up front in most matches not Kishore. 

 

Mayank Yadav for North Zone .

 

 

The spinners were clearing playing the support role. 

 

 

Hardly ,when is india playing with 3 pacers and hardik in the 11 ? Pacers might get injured so they are in the squad for backup and then there is fear of dew and you are conflating Odis with fc .Even against aus the spinners were lot more effective,whereas pacers were leaking runs.

 

and even if you pick 4 pacers in a fc squad ,2 of them won't play,so hardly any opportunity for anyone.

 

 

 

 

Spinners doing all the damage here in this match .pacers aren't that important , 1 is enough,even then those  quicker pacers will leak runs.

 

Odd pacers like mayank might do well but harshit struggled,yudh vir and the other fellow from punjab weren't even picked in the north zone team ,kaushik is a slow pacer who are perfect for indian pitches.

 

by and large you need spinners and batsmen in india,pacers aren't that needed.

[Nikhil_cric]

5 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

This system will not succeed unless we change our pitches.

What we need is the 2 tier structure of tournaments...

First zone wise teams will compete each other...this will not allow the weaker teams from North East to be mauled by Mumbai or Karnataka, Assam should also be part of the North East Zone

Then the best 18 from each zone should play amongst each other for the final cup

 

The inter zonal matches should be broadcasted with proper kit and speedometers in place (selectors should be mandated to watch these matches , atleast from the zones playing the game).

 

The grounds for inter zonal matches should be of all types (Green Top, bouncy, flat, spin assist), this will assess the quality of players on different pitches. 

 

We should award the bowlers who are able to bowl quickest, for spinners those who get maximum turn in degree should be awarded at the end of the every match and then one big award at the end of season. Special incentives for the players who are allrounders, no useless rules like "power player" or "super sub".

 

Ranji should be the priority, followed by Vijay Hazare/Deodhar & then the T20 version. Following this template will keep our domestic players kinda occupied for the entire year.

Point about pitches is well taken . Domestic List A pitches should be similar to ODI pitches in India.

 

Currently , what happens is we have a system where we judge based on a combination of First class/List A /IPL performances and then pick somehow try to pick players especially for ODI cricket based on that .

 

It's how Mukesh got his ODI debut. 

 

Not every bowler can sustain that kind of workload without losing pace and efficacy .  Especially if first class pitches are not supportive anyway .

 

Someone like a Jofra Archer has a very light frame and not the best action and that puts strain on his body. 

 

In our system , it would be impossible to make his way back into the ODI side unless he is available for selection in all formats .

 

Our players don't quit formats , not because they don't want to but because they know that if they want to opt out of a format , there will be serious repercussions .

 

 

And if they are not durable enough , they will cut down on their pace to better sustain workloads across formats and end up becoming mediocre in all of them.

 

Shami and Umesh Yadav were lucky. They had good pace when we were struggling to find 140 + bowlers.  So they got into the Indian team early and now they have their workloads centrally managed and their needs looked after.

 

That's why Shami can go an entire year playing only IPL and Tests and still make it to World Cup squads.

 

They have enough off time to work at NCA to get to the level of fitness needed for the next series etc.

 

And Shami had a good , efficient action anyway. Many don't . They don't have the support required to go to the next level. 

 

Players  need the off season to straighten out actions, rest, build on strength etc.

 

So , I don't think we should have our domestic players occupied throughout the year.

 

The problems with zonal system is that certain areas of the country will always produce more sporting talent than others. 

 

South Zone currently has 1 proven bowler who can even clock 145 kph in Prasidh Krishna(off the top of my head)

 

 

Now assuming we have more bowlers of that ilk coming in larger numbers  from areas like Rajasthan, UP, Haryana, a zonal system would be skewed in that you might excess quick bowlers in one zone and excess technically correct batsmen in the other and so on and so forth. 

 

Then runs and wickets against certain zones will be questionable and will make the process complicated. 

 

On the other hand, if we have a highly competitive franchise model, we can reasonably expect these talents to be fairly evenly distributed and even raw stats of batsmen and bowlers can be trusted. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

35 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

Hardly ,when is india playing with 3 pacers and hardik in the 11 ? Pacers might get injured so they are in the squad for backup and then there is fear of dew and you are conflating Odis with fc .Even against aus the spinners were lot more effective,whereas pacers were leaking runs.

 

and even if you pick 4 pacers in a fc squad ,2 of them won't play,so hardly any opportunity for anyone.

 

 

 

 

Spinners doing all the damage here in this match .pacers aren't that important , 1 is enough,even then those  quicker pacers will leak runs.

 

Odd pacers like mayank might do well but harshit struggled,yudh vir and the other fellow from punjab weren't even picked in the north zone team ,kaushik is a slow pacer who are perfect for indian pitches.

 

by and large you need spinners and batsmen in india,pacers aren't that needed.

I was talking about Deodhar. Deodhar is a white ball tournament and white ball pitches need quicks as well. 

 

Also , the same principles apply to FC, regardless of your position on this .   You may support your medium pacers but quicks have done really well in India in the past . And will do so in the future as well. 

 

Also, dew in FC matches ? Lol. 

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[MediumPacer]

2 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I was talking about Deodhar. Deodhar is a white ball tournament and white ball pitches need quicks as well. 

 

Also , the same principles apply to FC, regardless of your position on this .   You may support your medium pacers but quicks have done really well in India in the past . And will do so in the future as well. 

 

Also, dew in FC matches ? Lol. 

 

In deodhar you get mostly spinners ,

 

Here is the list of wicket takers

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/records/tournament/bowling-most-wickets-career/deodhar-trophy-2023-15544

 

Next you will say pacers like murasingh and kaushik got wickets lol.

 

And if you like to conflate Odis with fc ,no wonder you are dumb enough to think I was talking about dew in fc.

[Nikhil_cric]

3 minutes ago, MediumPacer said:

In deodhar you get mostly spinners ,

 

Here is the list of wicket takers

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/records/tournament/bowling-most-wickets-career/deodhar-trophy-2023-15544

 

Next you will say pacers like murasingh and kaushik got wickets lol.

 

And if you like to conflate Odis with fc ,no wonder you are dumb enough to think I was talking about dew in fc.

Genuine quicks have taken wickets in Test matches in India. 

 

You may have been catatonic at the time but Shami, Umesh, Siraj have all taken wickets and won matches with the ball in Indian conditions .

 

Also, I admire the audacity to show me a list where the best averaging bowlers are seamers anyway and they toom wickets with the new ball too.

 

Foot in mouth must be the staple diet to allow you to post that nonsense 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[MediumPacer]

29 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Genuine quicks have taken wickets in Test matches in India. 

 

You may have been catatonic at the time but Shami, Umesh, Siraj have all taken wickets and won matches with the ball in Indian conditions .

 

Also, I admire the audacity to show me a list where the best averaging bowlers are seamers anyway and they toom wickets with the new ball too.

 

Foot in mouth must be the staple diet to allow you to post that nonsense 

Siraj hasnt done  anything in tests in india.Here is the list of all indian wicket takes in india in the last 10 years,only umesh and shami have stood  out among pacers 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=1;orderby=wickets;spanmax1=02+Oct+2023;spanmin1=02+Oct+2013;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

2 pacers who bowl over 130k did well among 6 teams in deodhar and I am the idiot?

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by MediumPacer

[vvvslaxman]

IPL kinda determines the selection. There was a period Irani Trophy was the single most important tournament in India as far as selection goes. Over a period it lost its gloss. Infact under-19 played a major role in selection of players. With so many leagues, series big guns don't take part in this match anymore. So what we get from here are slim pickings. We know about these guys through other tournament.  Having said it provides a platform for players to show their standing. Last time Jaiswal made 2 centuries in the Irani Trophy.