zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 (edited) 11 minutes ago, G_B_ said: So if Israelis leave west asia as per you Hamas and Hezbollah will not exist? Is that correct? They become irrelevant as the “fight for the Palestinians” is over. As an ex-IDF official said - “Hamas did not make the conflict but the conflict made Hamas”. Btw, ICC (not the cricket org) is seeking arrest warrants for extremists Netanyahu and Gallan, along with senior Hamas leaders - Link “This is a watershed event in the history of international justice,” Reed Brody, a veteran war crimes prosecutor, told Reuters. “The ICC has never, in over 21 years of existence, indicted a Western official. Indeed, no international tribunal since Nuremberg (against representatives of Nazi Germany) has done so.” Edited November 18, 2024 by zen
G_B_ Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 The leadership of Hamas has shifted from Qatar to Turkey. Open season I would say... coffee_rules 1
G_B_ Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 1 minute ago, zen said: They become irrelevant as the “fight for the Palestinians” is over. As an ex-IDF official said - “Hamas did not make the conflict but the conflict made Hamas”. Btw, ICC (not the cricket org) is seeking arrest warrants for extremists Netanyahu and Gallan, along with senior Hamas leaders - Link Lets be honest looking around the region some other similar entity would arise. There are enough examples from Libya to Yemen. mishra, coffee_rules and Laaloo 1 2
mishra Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 48 minutes ago, zen said: Agree, and the extremists in Israel can be seen as a terror group too (they are now in govt much like Hitler’s Nazi party). They deliberately run away from “negotiations” in an attempt to sideline Palestinians (sweep their issue under the carpet). On top of that brazenly break international law to promote illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. When the Palestinians retaliate, Israel tends to double down on them. PS Hezbollah and Hamas will become irrelevant once Israelis (without being influenced by the Israeli extremist agenda including of “Greater Israel”) honourably vacate the West Bank and ends its siege on Gaza, which is more or less a refugee colony directly or indirectly controlled by Israel. Israelis have all the right to defend their country from Terrorist attack. People like you can’t distinguish between mandate and right to defend citizens by Nations defence forces and Violence by Terrorist. Once again,hypothetically, If missiles are launched on Canada by a neighbouring not recognised entity Wouldn’t Canadaian forces be allowed to react?
zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 Just now, G_B_ said: Lets be honest looking around the region some other similar entity would arise. There are enough examples from Libya to Yemen. If so, it could be some different matter (it could be for Iran v Saudi, etc). Extremism is present in Israel too. After the “common enemy” is no longer there, Israelis could battle among themselves too. The point here is occupation of Palestine which would end, taking the issue off the table:
G_B_ Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 If so, it could be some different matter (it could be for Iran v Saudi, etc). Extremism is present in Israel too. After the “common enemy” is no longer there, Israelis could battle among themselves too. The point here is occupation of Palestine which would end, taking the issue off the table: Death is death. Point is your not going to see some blossoming democracy.I also think hezbollah would 100% exist. They would simply focus on demographic extremism vs christians and sunnis. Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk coffee_rules 1
zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 3 minutes ago, mishra said: Israelis have all the right to defend their country from Terrorist attack. People like you can’t distinguish between mandate and right to defend citizens by Nations defence forces and Violence by Terrorist. Once again,hypothetically, If missiles are launched on Canada by a neighbouring not recognised entity Wouldn’t Canadaian forces be allowed to react? That is misreading the issue. While Israel has a right to defend itself, it does not have a right to terrorize Palestinians in the West Bank and siege Gaza. It has to vacate the occupied territories honourably, and not kill peace and negotiations (allowing illegal settlement in West Bank). Many countries do not recognize Israel. And many countries recognize Palestine, which is not even allowed to have its army (only security forces). What you assume is that Israel has a right to occupy Palestine lands. And that Palestine is not recognized.
zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 4 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Death is death. Point is your not going to see some blossoming democracy. I also think hezbollah would 100% exist. They would simply focus on demographic extremism vs christians and sunnis. Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk I said it could become irrelevant to the Palestine issue. That would not be Israel’s (or Palestine’s) concern much like “extremism” in Israel would not be Hezbollah’s.
mishra Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 2 minutes ago, zen said: That is misreading the issue. While Israel has a right to defend itself, it does not have a right to terrorize Palestinians in the West Bank and siege Gaza. It has to vacate the occupied territories honourably, and not kill peace and negotiations (allowing illegal settlement in West Bank). Many countries do not recognize Israel. And many countries recognize Palestine, which is not even allowed to have its army (only security forces). What you assume is that Israel has a right to occupy Palestine lands. And that Palestine is not recognized. Unlike you, I don’t think there is radical Gazans called Hamas and innocent Gazans. All the Gazans atleast sholder for Hamas will continue to shoulder for Hamas and even a child will grow up to become Hamas because Hamas is nothing but bi product of following teachings of Islam in Non Islamic neighbourhood (region/country)
coffee_rules Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 10 minutes ago, G_B_ said: Lets be honest looking around the region some other similar entity would arise. There are enough examples from Libya to Yemen. Apart from these two, Palestine Islamic Jihad, Houthis, Syrian rebels, Islamic Brotherhood, Iran Revolutionary Guards , all are part of the Islamic terror industry that “fight” for the Palestine cause . As per Pew research, more than 40% of Israelis feel that the settlements increase the sense of National security , already USA has toned down the stance regarding settlements . They are disputed, but all governments of Israel have pushed the settlements, not just the RW Likud! Can’t vouch for the validity of this Clinton video, but Ehud Barak was from aLW Party, PLO/Hamas would not trust even LW Israel.
Laaloo Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 1 hour ago, mishra said: Laat ke bhoot bat se nahi maante. Hezbollah seems ready to talk ceasefire. Some more laat and statement will read Hezbollah is ready to talk ceasefire unconditional. But i think even more laat is needed to finish them to cement mssg that Terror groups don’t have any place on negotiations table. Aah yes. The good old hezbollah. Fire rockets into Israel daily for over a year without any retaliation because Israel is busy elsewhere. Israel finally gets a chance and obliterates the terrorists with pager attacks, and now hezbollah started playing victim card. mishra 1
Laaloo Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 32 minutes ago, G_B_ said: The leadership of Hamas has shifted from Qatar to Turkey. Open season I would say... Terrorists taking turns to shelter terrorists mishra 1
zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 24 minutes ago, mishra said: Unlike you, I don’t think there is radical Gazans called Hamas and innocent Gazans. All the Gazans atleast sholder for Hamas will continue to shoulder for Hamas and even a child will grow up to become Hamas because Hamas is nothing but bi product of following teachings of Islam in Non Islamic neighbourhood (region/country) Similarly, some “Gazans” (such as Hamas) may not distinguish b/w radical Israelis (including its criminal army) and innocent Israelis. Therefore, the cycle of violence continues: Israeli terrorizes Palestinians including through illegal settlements, apartheid, siege (Gaza is not even allowed to have an international airport for e.g.), direct and indirect control of economy designed to leave Palestinians behind, etc. Israeli extremists do not even try to “negotiate” and attempt to sweep the Palestinians voice under the carpet. Groups like Hamas (formed because of the conflict and many times funded by Israel to keep Palestinians divided and allow the IDF to take action ) take extreme actions. Israel uses that to conduct genocide to advance its plan to annex Palestinians lands. India has been under British control. We have had Bhagat Singh, Bose etc., on one hand, and Gandhi, Nehru, etc. on the other hand. British treated us much the same as Israelis treat Palestinians. For Palestinians, the colonial rule has continued despite the departure of the British. Let’s not forget Jallianwala Bagh massacre. Like you for British, there may not have been “innocent” Indians but most of those killed were innocent including women and children (much like the innocent Gazans). Thankfully, the world has woken up to the injustice and understand Israeli extremism and its agenda!
coffee_rules Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 13 minutes ago, Laaloo said: Terrorists taking turns to shelter terrorists Turkey is a NATO nation. It will be difficult to flush out Hamas from Turkey.
zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 (edited) Per wiki - the State of Palestine is recognized by 146 countries (v 138 in the last above): The US has not recognized it. It may be due to the zionist lobby and probably the goal to funnel back Israeli aid dollars back to its arms manufacturers. Edited November 18, 2024 by zen
mishra Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, zen said: Similarly, some “Gazans” (such as Hamas) may not distinguish b/w radical Israelis (including its criminal army) and innocent Israelis. Therefore, the cycle of violence continues: Israeli terrorizes Palestinians including through illegal settlements, apartheid, siege (Gaza is not even allowed to have an international airport for e.g.), direct and indirect control of economy designed to leave Palestinians behind, etc. Israeli extremists do not even try to “negotiate” and attempt to sweep the Palestinians voice under the carpet. Groups like Hamas (formed because of the conflict and many times funded by Israel to keep Palestinians divided and allow the IDF to take action ) take extreme actions. Israel uses that to conduct genocide to advance its plan to annex Palestinians lands. India has been under British control. We have had Bhagat Singh, Bose etc., on one hand, and Gandhi, Nehru, etc. on the other hand. British treated us much the same as Israelis treat Palestinians. For Palestinians, the colonial rule has continued despite the departure of the British. Let’s not forget Jallianwala Bagh massacre. Like you for British, there may not have been “innocent” Indians but most of those killed were innocent including women and children (much like the innocent Gazans). Thankfully, the world has woken up to the injustice and understand Israeli extremism and its agenda! No there is nothing called criminal army if it is engaged in defending its territory and citizens. Infact in army terms, in purest form. Only thing that is criminal is running away from the battlefield, like Hamas/Hezbollah is doing now. But they are Terror outfits, they can afford it. But this behaviour prooves that they are terror outfits I dont think History of creation of Hamas vs PLO is relevant as PLO was beaten by Hamas. Doesnt mean that Hamas dont deserve to be beaten or PLO was any less threat to IDF/Isreal. PS: I have intentinally ignored rest of comment as you are equating right to freedom against colonial powers with Right to exterminate Jews Edited November 18, 2024 by mishra Laaloo 1
mishra Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 6 minutes ago, zen said: Per wiki - the State of Palestine is recognized by 146 countries (v 138 in the last above): The US has not recognized it. It may be due to the zionist lobby and probably the goal to funnel back Israeli aid dollars back to its arms manufacturers. Recognition of State doesnt mean recognistion of borders. There is a Palestine on a map in which Jammu Laddakh Kashmir Junagadh and Hyderbad is part of Pakistan. does it makes any difference to reality coffee_rules 1
zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 Just now, mishra said: No there is nothing called criminal army if it is engaged in defending its territory and citizens. Infact in army terms, in purest form. Only thing that is criminal is running away from the battlefield, like Hamas/Hezbollah is doing now. I dont think History of creation of Hamas vs PLO is relevant as PLO was beaten by Hamas. Doesnt mean that Hamas dont deserve to be beaten or PLO was any less threat to IDF/Isreal. Many, including the UN inquiry group, view Israeli army aa criminal. ICC (not the cricket org) is seeking warrants against Netanyahu and company. The threat is to Palestine from Israel. Its people facing genicide, its lands being stolen, discrimination because of occupation, etc.
zen Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 3 minutes ago, mishra said: Recognition of State doesnt mean recognistion of borders. There is a Palestine on a map in which Jammu Laddakh Kashmir Junagadh and Hyderbad is part of Pakistan. does it makes any difference to reality The West Bank is considered as occupied by Israel. The Gaza is under siege by Israel. Many states recognize the borders too.
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