India needs boring batsmen

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, bowl_out said:

Sai Sudarshan seems to have solid temperament.

 

How is Baba Indrajith? Seems to be scoring a lot of runs in domestic but haven't seen him bat

Sai looks like a real deal. Baba indrajith is good. Scored a lot of critical runs for TN. Need to announce himself in an India A tour or some other crucial match like final.  IPL is the best place to get noticed. Sai Sudarshan made a brilliant 95 in the IPL final.

[MechEng]

13 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

 

Pujara was the greatest batsman i have seen play in Asian pitches.

 

It's Sehwag.

 

Plus agreed on Pujara being hugely underrated. Not only on Asian wickets, we cannot ignore his contribution to our Gabba win where he took sting off Aussie bowling that allowed Gill and Pant to score freely.

[Muloghonto]

10 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Easwaran is nearing 30. Bit too late to pick him

 

On topic, one 'boring' batsman India can look to retry is Hanuma Vihari. Guy was hero of BGT but got dropped due to not being flashy enough

30 isnt too late to pick a batsman, 30 is literally near the peak of most average test batsmen. A 30 year old still has 5-6 years to offer to the team, which is sufficient and good enough if the player is good enough.

There's plenty of players who get picked in their late 20s/30 and still go on to have a good career.

 

[Muloghonto]

10 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I don't think we have such players anymore with T20 format around. It requires insane amount of discipline, self-restraint, technique to switch between different formats on the fly. I dno't think anyone has that. Kohli at his peak had that attribute. But he was largely a ground stroke player which kinda suited him for different formats. Current lot is struggling to adapt. Specialist is the way to go. Gill really looked decent in the later half of england series. But he lost his loi mojo.  It is better to have exclusive players who can tuk tuk

 

Jaiswal's main flaw, like almost all players who grow up exclusively in the T20 era, is that he is impatient.  The T20 mentality is 'give batsmen 4 dot balls in a row and you've made insane pressure on the batsman and he is likely to do something rash in the last 2 balls of the over'. 

This mentality is something i see Jaiswal have and if he gets bogged down for 2 overs, he goes absolute crazy by the third over and tries to force the issue. 

 

People forget that Sehwag, despite being a swashbuckler, was not an impatient batsman and there are plenty of times he'd score 20 off of 40 balls, then go crash 20 in the next 10, then again score 10 in the next 20-30 balls, depending on what is given to him. 
Aggressive players in the test era- even Sehwag and Gilchrist never let loose balls go but didnt try to always force the issue on good balls. They were quite happy to shut shop and ride out the good spell and then go crazy bashing the next bowler who comes on change. 

Jaiswal, like most T20 era guys, get fidgety and build pressure on themselves when they are doing something like 20* off of 50 balls. 

 

[sensible-indian]

1 hour ago, MechEng said:

 

It's Sehwag.

 

Plus agreed on Pujara being hugely underrated. Not only on Asian wickets, we cannot ignore his contribution to our Gabba win where he took sting off Aussie bowling that allowed Gill and Pant to score freely.

Pujara > Sehwag in Asian pitches

 

I know Sehwag had the most incredible SR and was an alien on Asian pitches but when it comes to scoring crucial runs no matter what the condition and absolutely getting the job done, Pujara is ahead for me.

 

I know its an unpopular opinion but I have given it a lot of thought and I stand by it.

 

I would have both in my all time Asian XI.

 

Edited November 2, 2024 by sensible-indian

[vvvslaxman]

56 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

Jaiswal's main flaw, like almost all players who grow up exclusively in the T20 era, is that he is impatient.  The T20 mentality is 'give batsmen 4 dot balls in a row and you've made insane pressure on the batsman and he is likely to do something rash in the last 2 balls of the over'. 

This mentality is something i see Jaiswal have and if he gets bogged down for 2 overs, he goes absolute crazy by the third over and tries to force the issue. 

 

People forget that Sehwag, despite being a swashbuckler, was not an impatient batsman and there are plenty of times he'd score 20 off of 40 balls, then go crash 20 in the next 10, then again score 10 in the next 20-30 balls, depending on what is given to him. 
Aggressive players in the test era- even Sehwag and Gilchrist never let loose balls go but didnt try to always force the issue on good balls. They were quite happy to shut shop and ride out the good spell and then go crazy bashing the next bowler who comes on change. 

Jaiswal, like most T20 era guys, get fidgety and build pressure on themselves when they are doing something like 20* off of 50 balls. 

 

 

Two reasons for impatience. Mental inability to switch between formats  Second reason technical reason. They are not confident about their defense. After getting beaten for a while they resort to playing a very low percentage shot. Sehwag inspite of ultra aggressive mentality had rock solid defense.  Another aspect that is missing from the current gen batsman is inability to play against the turn.  IT allows the opposition to pack one side and bowl to one side. They keep hitting straight to fielder and eventually end up playing a rash shot. Mayank is probably the last guy who had this dominating game against spin. 

 

Mayank vs spin  987 balls 656 runs   72.88 avge @66.46  9 dismissals

 

Virat kohli's career average against spin  6823 balls 3894 runs 55.62@57.07  70 dismissals

 

But if you look at Virat's stat against spin from 2020

1705 balls  821 runs  31.57 avge  26 dsimissals

[New guy]

This is a weird thread considering all the batsmen from our side who succeeded in this series are those who play agressively. Jaiswal, pant, sarfraz, gill are the top scorers.

 

Pant is the top scorer from India and also has the highest strike rate.

 

Those trying to play defensively laid an egg

 

Indian teams failure in this series has nothing to do with playing agressively or defensively 

 

It's that certain batsmen at key position like rohit, kohli and Rahul in first test are completely past their sell by date.  Jadeja and Ashwin too lost form in batting. Has been pujara would have laid an egg too no matter how defensive he was.

 

If you have three other batsmen in their place who contributed along with jaiswal, pant, sarfraz and gill we would have done way better in the series. That was the difference, not agressive or defensive play

 

 

Edited November 2, 2024 by New guy

[Chakdephatte]

People in the match thread are complaining about Gill's strike rate. On this wicket. 

[MechEng]

47 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Pujara > Sehwag in Asian pitches

 

I know Sehwag had the most incredible SR and was an alien on Asian pitches but when it comes to scoring crucial runs no matter what the condition and absolutely getting the job done, Pujara is ahead for me.

 

I know its an unpopular opinion but I have given it a lot of thought and I stand by it.

 

I would have both in my all time Asian XI.

 

 

You would rank Pujara ahead of Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sangakkara, Jayawardene and UAE Khan on Asian wickets?

[sensible-indian]

7 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

You would rank Pujara ahead of Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Sangakkara, Jayawardene and UAE Khan on Asian wickets?

Yes

[Muloghonto]

55 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Pujara > Sehwag in Asian pitches

 

I know Sehwag had the most incredible SR and was an alien on Asian pitches but when it comes to scoring crucial runs no matter what the condition and absolutely getting the job done, Pujara is ahead for me.

 

I know its an unpopular opinion but I have given it a lot of thought and I stand by it.

 

I would have both in my all time Asian XI.

 

Pujara is nowhere close to Sehwag on Asian pitches, where Sehwag could absolutely annihilate even McGrath or Steyn on subcontinental pitches and spinners never ever bothered him in the first place. He did score most amount of crucial runs i've ever seen in Asia - its just that his position (opener) and speed means he is not your guy to come in and save the day at 20/4 by sheer odds. 
Pujara is good, but i think Dravid, Sidhu and Tendy were all better than Pujara on Asian pitches as well, but the best by far is Sehwag. Sidhu for me is in #2-3 considerations for this imo as well. 

 

[sensible-indian]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Pujara is nowhere close to Sehwag on Asian pitches, where Sehwag could absolutely annihilate even McGrath or Steyn on subcontinental pitches and spinners never ever bothered him in the first place. He did score most amount of crucial runs i've ever seen in Asia - its just that his position (opener) and speed means he is not your guy to come in and save the day at 20/4 by sheer odds. 
Pujara is good, but i think Dravid, Sidhu and Tendy were all better than Pujara on Asian pitches as well, but the best by far is Sehwag. Sidhu for me is in #2-3 considerations for this imo as well. 

 

I disagree.

 

Until 2019 Pujara averaged 60 at home.

 

Same as all other legends.

 

But the impact of his runs were way way higher.

 

Only thing you can hold against Pujara is he didnt last super long cos his knees gave out.

 

But when he was good, he was the best.

 

 

[sensible-indian]

All the others averaged 60, playing on relatively far more flatter pitches than Pujara.

 

Add in Pujaras ability to grit it out and score the toughest runs with the match and series on the line...

 

He was something else.

 

Prime Pujara and Smith had the quality in them that was sooo different to others.

[Muloghonto]

43 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Two reasons for impatience. Mental inability to switch between formats  Second reason technical reason. They are not confident about their defense. After getting beaten for a while they resort to playing a very low percentage shot. Sehwag inspite of ultra aggressive mentality had rock solid defense.  Another aspect that is missing from the current gen batsman is inability to play against the turn.  IT allows the opposition to pack one side and bowl to one side. They keep hitting straight to fielder and eventually end up playing a rash shot. Mayank is probably the last guy who had this dominating game against spin. 

 

Mayank vs spin  987 balls 656 runs   72.88 avge @66.46  9 dismissals

 

Virat kohli's career average against spin  6823 balls 3894 runs 55.62@57.07  70 dismissals

 

But if you look at Virat's stat against spin from 2020

1705 balls  821 runs  31.57 avge  26 dsimissals

 

Cant build a rock solid defence if your first focus and introduction to cricket is short format game. First step of being good at defence is knowing where your off stump exactly is. You get good at this, by leaving the damn ball. If you start with gulli-danda cricket and then go IPL to FC route, you have basically never been exposed to pro cricket where main damn thing is 'if sure its not on stumps but not sure how to play, just leave the damn ball lol' mode of playing cricket. 
Jaiswal has an excellent attacking game but he needs to build his defensive nous if he wishes to be a great opener and he really has a shot at it, if he can tighten up his.  defensive frame of mind. Get ready to play normal test cricket, where its okay to be at 8 not out off of 30 balls coz you saw off Rabada and ngidi and now you can open up a bit to others. or its okay to go at 2 rpo for first 10 overs of the day/ first 5 overs after lunch till you get settled, etc. He is opener, he doesnt need to be mr wall but he does need to know when to shut shop for 30 min and just stay defending and then cash in on the new bowler who is coming in on change. Sehwag often did this - it doesnt reflect in his strike rate, but he often patiently waited out the opening spells of a session/delay and went crazy after whomever was coming in as change bowler, even if its Mcgrath or Steyn coming in. Aggression in tests must come with patience to be great at it. 

 

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

I disagree.

 

Until 2019 Pujara averaged 60 at home.

 

Same as all other legends.

 

But the impact of his runs were way way higher.

 

Only thing you can hold against Pujara is he didnt last super long cos his knees gave out.

 

But when he was good, he was the best.

 

 

Pujara didnt get to face as many quality bowlers at home as the other greats did, nevermind that other greats didnt have backing of a monster home bowling unit like Pujara did in this period. Shami-Ashwin-Jadeja and then addition of Bumrah makes it by far the best Indian attack especially in Indian conditions in history of cricket. 

 

I will say, yes, Pujara is the only batsman of THIS era to truly merit comparison with the big 3 of the prior era ( Dravid,Sachin,Sehwag) and to a couple others like Azharuddin, Gavaskar & Sidhu - who are pretty much overall 'ATG level' players in home conditions as well. 

Kohli will pretty much go down as a slightly worse VVS/best version of Amarnath at this rate imo - excellent at overseas but really does not merit a place for alltime India XI in India - which is ironic to think about for a guy who still is a shoo-in for an alltime india XI outside Asia. 

 

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Pujara didnt get to face as many quality bowlers at home as the other greats did, nevermind that other greats didnt have backing of a monster home bowling unit like Pujara did in this period. Shami-Ashwin-Jadeja and then addition of Bumrah makes it by far the best Indian attack especially in Indian conditions in history of cricket. 

 

I will say, yes, Pujara is the only batsman of THIS era to truly merit comparison with the big 3 of the prior era ( Dravid,Sachin,Sehwag) and to a couple others like Azharuddin, Gavaskar & Sidhu - who are pretty much overall 'ATG level' players in home conditions as well. 

Kohli will pretty much go down as a slightly worse VVS/best version of Amarnath at this rate imo - excellent at overseas but really does not merit a place for alltime India XI in India - which is ironic to think about for a guy who still is a shoo-in for an alltime india XI outside Asia. 

 

2000s was a flat pitch era in India. 2010s rank turner era where bowler hardly mattered when pitch ordinary bowler look threatening.

[sensible-indian]

10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Pujara didnt get to face as many quality bowlers at home as the other greats did, nevermind that other greats didnt have backing of a monster home bowling unit like Pujara did in this period. Shami-Ashwin-Jadeja and then addition of Bumrah makes it by far the best Indian attack especially in Indian conditions in history of cricket. 

 

I will say, yes, Pujara is the only batsman of THIS era to truly merit comparison with the big 3 of the prior era ( Dravid,Sachin,Sehwag) and to a couple others like Azharuddin, Gavaskar & Sidhu - who are pretty much overall 'ATG level' players in home conditions as well. 

Kohli will pretty much go down as a slightly worse VVS/best version of Amarnath at this rate imo - excellent at overseas but really does not merit a place for alltime India XI in India - which is ironic to think about for a guy who still is a shoo-in for an alltime india XI outside Asia. 

 

Pujara got to face far harder pitches..

 

Plus he faced

 

Prime swann panesar (a combo that most of the others never faced that too on tough tracks)

 

Lyon on brutal pitches across multiple series

 

O keefe type bowlers too who may not last long but they can wreak havoc on pitches.

 

Plus the SA series pitches ..the kind of pitchws where the 2000s team would collapse even to Clarke, Afridi, etc (it happens to even the best).

 

Had Pujara played on 2000s featherbeds, his numbers would be insane.

 

Sure a Steyn or Mcgrath will get him a couple of times but on featherbeds he will get to pile on so many runs.

 

This is the same Pujara who DESTROYED an ATG aussie attack in 2018 in a way done by no other Indian bat.

 

Then came back again in 2020...clearly struggling and still managed to blunt them to the point where others could go for it.

 

Imagine what he would do to hapless bowlers on a 2000s featherbed.

Edited November 2, 2024 by sensible-indian

[Muloghonto]

4 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

2000s was a flat pitch era in India. 2010s rank turner era where bowler hardly mattered when pitch ordinary bowler look threatening.

2000s is not flat pitch era. 2004 onwards is flat pitch era. early 2000s was still spitting cobras where Kumble and Bhajji made hay and most of the previous greats come from actual minefields of 90s India. Not to matter, because flat pitches dont negate the vastly superior bowling faced by the prior gen at home than Pujara ever did. Facing Warne-murali-McGill-Saqlain-Herat is better than Herat+Swann+panesar+Lyon by a huge, huge distance, not to mention, Steyn +Johnson doesnt quite make up for facing McGrath+Donald+Pollock even in our desi home conditions as far as pace attack goes. 

 

[Muloghonto]

9 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Pujara got to face far harder pitches..

 

Plus he faced

 

Prime swann panesar (a combo that most of the others never faced that too on tough tracks)

 

Lyon on brutal pitches across multiple series

 

O keefe type bowlers too who may not last long but they can wreak havoc on pitches.

 

Plus the SA series pitches ..the kind of pitchws where the 2000s team would collapse even to Clarke, Afridi, etc (it happens to even the best).

 

Had Pujara played on 2000s featherbeds, his numbers would be insane.

 

Sure a Steyn or Mcgrath will get him a couple of times but on featherbeds he will get to pile on so many runs.

 

This is the same Pujara who DESTROYED an ATG aussie attack in 2018 in a way done by no other Indian bat.

 

Then came back again in 2020...clearly struggling and still managed to blunt them to the point where others could go for it.

 

Imagine what he would do to hapless bowlers on a 2000s featherbed.

Lyon, O'keefe, Swann, Panesar dont even crack the top 5 spinners list individually in the mid 90s to 2010 period,lol. 
Bashing the hell outta McGill alone is far faaaaaaaaaaar more incredible than taking on Swann at his peak, nevemind Murali, Warne, Saqqi, Mushie, Herath, etc. 

India played pakistan at home back then, which is automatically higher quality of spin than any Pujara has faced, nevermind if we include Oz or SL as well, which are also better spin than Pujara has ever faced. yes, english spinners went from dog-**** part timer indian spinner standards to decent indian spinner standards, but nothing Panesar or Swann did that would get then figures like 6-50 against the prior greats at all. 

 

Yes, Pujara got tougher pitches than Dravid/Tendy/Sehwag got from the whole 2005-2012 period. But these guys got just as bad pitches at home in the mid 90s-mid 2000s period with emergence of Kumble. This doesnt make up for the vastly superior spinners faced by the earlier generation IMO. 

 

Anyone who saw the 90s era to today knows, that a bowler like Lyon would never ever get 5 wickets in India in an innings for less than 120-150 runs if he'd been up against Sehwag+Tendy+Dravid+Gangu+VVS as the lead aussie spinner. Man has good stock ball and varies length and line with stock ball, with little other tricks up his sleeve. Those are kind of spinners who end up with figures like 40-10-140-5 back in the 90s dustbowls of India right after Kumble would take something like 20-6-55-6 in his overs. 

Panesar might've been somewhat okay, maybe averaging 35-40 in India due to his leftie nature, but even then, he'd be in the whole 40-10-140-5 type of figures deal. 

 

Edited November 2, 2024 by Muloghonto

[sensible-indian]

20 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Lyon, O'keefe, Swann, Panesar dont even crack the top 5 spinners list individually in the mid 90s to 2010 period,lol. 
Bashing the hell outta McGill alone is far faaaaaaaaaaar more incredible than taking on Swann at his peak, nevemind Murali, Warne, Saqqi, Mushie, Herath, etc. 

India played pakistan at home back then, which is automatically higher quality of spin than any Pujara has faced, nevermind if we include Oz or SL as well, which are also better spin than Pujara has ever faced. yes, english spinners went from dog-**** part timer indian spinner standards to decent indian spinner standards, but nothing Panesar or Swann did that would get then figures like 6-50 against the prior greats at all. 

 

Yes, Pujara got tougher pitches than Dravid/Tendy/Sehwag got from the whole 2005-2012 period. But these guys got just as bad pitches at home in the mid 90s-mid 2000s period with emergence of Kumble. This doesnt make up for the vastly superior spinners faced by the earlier generation IMO. 

 

Anyone who saw the 90s era to today knows, that a bowler like Lyon would never ever get 5 wickets in India in an innings for less than 120-150 runs if he'd been up against Sehwag+Tendy+Dravid+Gangu+VVS as the lead aussie spinner. Man has good stock ball and varies length and line with stock ball, with little other tricks up his sleeve. Those are kind of spinners who end up with figures like 40-10-140-5 back in the 90s dustbowls of India right after Kumble would take something like 20-6-55-6 in his overs. 

Panesar might've been somewhat okay, maybe averaging 35-40 in India due to his leftie nature, but even then, he'd be in the whole 40-10-140-5 type of figures deal. 

 

 

lol no.

 

This is the problem.

 

Once we decide prime Swann and Monty on a tough Mumbai track is easier than bashing Macgill on a flat Aussie track.....

 

No wonder modern batsmen cannot compete with the yesteryears.

 

One would think these guys would bash Swann and Monty on those turners black and blue..

 

But in reality, Clarke and Afridi and Shaun Udal running through our 2000s batting lineup on a turner have shown all this is pure myth.

Edited November 2, 2024 by sensible-indian