Curious case of Waqar's career - avg 18 in first 32 tests and avg 28 in next 55

[singhvivek141]

5 hours ago, First class said:

Wasim is popular and Waqar not so popular in India for non-cricketing reason . 

Well, Waqar was a nobody for Indian audience before that low class comments (which sadly is true for many ek-Pak jokers).

 

Whether its 1996 WC game or 2003 ODI WC game.

Akram kept his skill level even on his worst days (first after diagnosis of Diabetes and then after match fixing saga). Waqar just surreneded after 1996 mauling from Jadeja. 

 

When people talk of 2003 ODI WC encounter, they mostly talk about six to Akhtar or sometimes the backfoot drive to Akram followed by the flick. Waqar isnt talked at all.

[MechEng]

4 hours ago, Adamant said:

Waqar is an ATG in tests, even though he became a shell of himself after the first 5-6 years he still did enough to end up with great numbers.

 

Quality wise, I rate Bumrah higher but he needs to take atleast 250 wickets to become an ATG.

 

Waqar did use dabbi bowl, but he tormented sides with the new ball too and that is because of his skills.

 

His bowling was aesthetic, unlike other bowlers who try to take the edge on 5th stump and bowl good lengths, Waqar bowled full and fast, the idea was to hut the wickets or the pads with 145 kph bowling accompanied with prodigious lateral movement. 

 

Peak Waqar might be better than peak Bumrah. Otherwise overall Bumrah is better.

 

The thing is that Waqar was a one trick pony and once he lost his pace he got carted for fours. His trademark was the banana late swing at 95 mph which no batsman irrespective of their skill level could handle that.

 

Bumrah on the other hand was rarely hitting above 140 mark this series, but still picked 32 wickets and could have taken more if he bowled in 2nd innings of Sydney test. His understanding of his bowling and what areas to hit on the pitch is pure masterclass.

[New guy]

5 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

Peak Waqar might be better than peak Bumrah. , 

Can you tell me against which top team at his time was peak waqar better?

[singhvivek141]

On 1/11/2025 at 1:20 PM, Trichromatic said:

Waqar had stellar record in first 31 tests

 

Matches 32

Wickets: 187

Avg: 18.85

5fers: 19

10fers: 4

 

Next 55 tests starting from Aus series in 1994

Wickets: 186

Avg: 28.29

5fers: 3

10fers: 1

 

How can avg of a bowler decline 10 points?

In 1994 Imran accepted he tempered the ball using bottle caps.

 

It ignited the discussion across the world and ICC started involving into the matters.

Pakistan team specially was at backfoot after the allegations as many ex cricketers even accused Sarafaraz Nawaz and many others of ball tempering.

 

I am not saying that was the reason, but something triggered that year.

[singhvivek141]

4 hours ago, First class said:

" Magician" received some $$ from Indian bookies and didn't show up for that 1996 match against India, Waqar played and had a bad day, all credit to Jadeja and Kumble , no doubt. Wasim always been  more diplomatic and did  a--- kissing of Indians for IPL contracts , not a very dignified person , never helped any new pacer in Pakistan . I know after Waqar's no so careful choice of words for Indians while commentating in India-Pakistan game , didn't win him many fans in India , but doesn't deny the fact he was an ATG bowler, better than Wasim and at par with Marshal and Styne . 

Averaged 40 in Australia

77 in India

28 in SA (barely okaish).

 

He can't be an ATG (who is good in all conditions or one exception can be given), maybe a Pakistani great but that's all.

Edited January 12, 2025 by singhvivek141

[MechEng]

21 minutes ago, New guy said:

Can you tell me against which top team at his time was peak waqar better?

 

If we strictly consider pre back injury Waqar, there weren't many great batting lineups around then. India and Australia were in transition phase, South Africa just came back after apartheid, NZ was OK while West Indies and England had 'big names' without necessarily having a strong batting lineup.

 

Waqar's numbers were pretty good against both England and West Indies but it would be hard to predict if he had done well against ATG Aus lineup had he not suffered the stress fracture. Flintoff copied Waqar and got the ball to do things in Ashes 05, so we may never know... 

 

The reason why I think peak Waqar might be better is because he was a force of nature. Man made strategies or tech will always fail against nature's wrath, that's the best analogy I can come up with. Bumrah at his peak is unplayable but may not give the same kind of anxiety as peak Waqar did.

 

Again, I can be wrong with the above, just my observations.

Edited January 12, 2025 by MechEng

[the don]

Waqar lost a lot of pace post injury. The difference was visible and he was a pace dependant bowler. But the other day i was watching this spell of his in 2001 against england and he was clocking 86-90 mph throughout. Got me thinking about the kind of speeds he clocked pre injury.

[the don]

Waqar is adequately rated by peers and pundits as someone who formed arguably the greatest bowling partnership of all time with Wasim Akram. Wasim if ofcourse rated higher as one of greatest of all times where as waqar is more in the great category. I do believe that post injury Waqar was an inferior bowler to Shoaib Akhtar who won more matches for Pakistan, pre injury Waqar was something else.

[New guy]

25 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

If we strictly consider pre back injury Waqar, there weren't many great batting lineups around then. India and Australia were in transition phase, South Africa just came back after apartheid, NZ was OK while West Indies and England had 'big names' without necessarily having a strong batting lineup.

 

Waqar's numbers were pretty good against both England and West Indies but it would be hard to predict if he had done well against ATG Aus lineup had he not suffered the stress fracture. Flintoff copied Waqar and got the ball to do things in Ashes 05, so we may never know... 

 

The reason why I think peak Waqar might be better is because he was a force of nature. Man made strategies or tech will always fail against nature's wrath, that's the best analogy I can come up with. Bumrah at his peak is unplayable but may not give the same kind of anxiety as peak Waqar did.

 

Again, I can be wrong with the above, just my observations.

His injury was before world cup 1992, he only played 14 tests before that (10 home tests out of those 14)  so claiming what he might do based on such small sample is weird. 14 matches is too low a sample to predict anything,.many players shined for some matches and then dropped off.

 

 His post injury career is 84% of his career 

 

Almost every fast bowler has stress fracture at that early  stage, bumrah, Cummins, Dennis lillee, rabada, jamieson, green, anderson, and many many more suffered from stress fractures and then came back and had long, successful careers. 

 

Even pre injury he averaged 56 against australia and 39.5 against India.

 

Someone who cannot perform against the best or away from home 

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy

[New guy]

5 minutes ago, the don said:

Waqar lost a lot of pace post injury. The difference was visible and he was a pace dependant bowler. But the other day i was watching this spell of his in 2001 against england and he was clocking 86-90 mph throughout. Got me thinking about the kind of speeds he clocked pre injury.

He played only 14 tests matches before his injury. It's weird people talking about "pre injury" when almost 85% of his career is post injury. 

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy

[the don]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

He bowled fast only till 1994 that too movement aided by bottlecaps. He later learnt to swing the new ball but had lost pace then.

Lol sir. Look at him touching 90 mph and consistely bowling 87-88 mph even tho he had lost all his pace. Compare that to the speeds of current bowlers.

 

Edited January 12, 2025 by the don

[the don]

2 minutes ago, New guy said:

He played only 14 tests matches before his injury. It's weird people talking about "pre injury" when almost 85% of his career is post injury. 

He was still pretty quick until 96 when he was clocking 90 mph on speed gum in england test series. Thats when he lost pace and the edge.

[New guy]

Just now, the don said:

He was still pretty quick until 96 when he was clocking 90 mph on speed gum in england test series. Thats when he lost pace and the edge.

So it wasn't injury right? He just faded away. 

[MechEng]

11 minutes ago, New guy said:

His injury was before world cup 1992, he only played 14 tests before that (10 home tests out of those 14)  so claiming what he might do based on such small sample is weird. 14 matches is too low a sample to predict anything,.many players shined for some matches and then dropped off.

 

 His post injury career is 84% of his career 

 

Almost every fast bowler has stress fracture at that early  stage, bumrah, Cummins, Dennis lillee, rabada, jamieson, green, anderson, and many many more suffered from stress fractures and then came back and had long, successful careers. 

 

Even pre injury he averaged 56 against australia and 39.5 against India.

 

Someone who cannot perform against the best or away from home 

 

Stress fractures come in gradients too, not all of them are equally severe. Some are easy to recover from while others can be career ending like that of Ian Bishop or Shane Bond.

 

Anyways, overall Bumrah is the better bowler, but there are/were hardly any bowlers being as devastating as Waqar was in 1990-93 period.

[the don]

11 minutes ago, New guy said:

So it wasn't injury right? He just faded away. 

He did not have “ one” injury.

[the don]

Another reason Pakistanis remember him very fondly is because Pak vs Eng was THE marquee series for Pak in the 90s with all the bad blood and Waqar literally owned the English. Guys like Hick were destroyed by the W’s.

[New guy]

3 hours ago, MechEng said:

 

Stress fractures come in gradients too, not all of them are equally severe. Some are easy to recover from while others can be career ending like that of Ian Bishop or Shane Bond.

 

Anyways, overall Bumrah is the better bowler, but there are/were hardly any bowlers being as devastating as Waqar was in 1990-93 period.

Again, how is 14 matches proof of any devastating period? If a bowler was not devastating for 85% of his career, can he be classified as devastating? 

 

In that 14 matches he still sucked against India and Australia, so in total he was devastating for around 8 matches.

 

Edited January 12, 2025 by New guy

[mani sha]

Waquar was a faster version of Unmesh yadav at his peak . Skiddy but could swing well 

lacknof bounce was the reason he was never good on Aussie pitches . 
 

Post injury , he had dropped in pace from 150s to 135 plus . V respectable but at best a support bowler to Wasim . 
 

He was never in bumrah class even at his peak. 

[First class]

4 hours ago, the don said:

Lol sir. Look at him touching 90 mph and consistely bowling 87-88 mph even tho he had lost all his pace. Compare that to the speeds of current bowlers.

 

Very few bowler in history, than Waqar,  would create that much excitement and buzz among the spectators when bowling his thunderbolts . Not just me , many believes the speed guns in those days were not very accurate and were showing lower speed compared to the modern ones. Just look at the famous speed competition held in Australia where Thompson's fastest delivery clocked 147, Holding was 2nd with 141 kmp and Imran 3rd at 139 kmh,. And all the ATG fast bowlers like Lillie , Roberts and many more in low 130's , no way. Thomo, Holding and IK, in those days were 150 plus bowlers, Particularly Thomo and Holding .

 

Waqar also suffered significantly later in his career due to Wasim Akram's captaincy. I use to play in the same club as Wasim Akram ( P&T club , Lahore ) and knew the internal stories . Wasim was always jealous of Waqar, as many thought Waqar was better than him . He dropped Waqar , when he was still very good and played him rarely, hence Waqar's form and rhythm suffered by a great deal and his average . Even in the important tour of India in 1999, Waqar was warming the benches. Yes Shoaib just emerged as the new sensation but Waqar was certainly better than the likes of Azhar Mehmood and Ata-ur Rehaman . 

[First class]

Comparing Waqar and Bumrah's bowling action , by an Indian.