Has India lost the element of surprise by saying that all proxy attacks by Pakistan will be treated as an act of war ?

[Lone Wolf]

1 minute ago, rangeelaraja said:

it’s not about commercial ownership structure that you are stating. it’s about being indigenous parts and foreign dependency in manufacturing. 

 

Brahmos that India manufacturing locally has achieved over 80 % indigenization. 
 

Navigation systems, targeting software, airframe structures, solid booster propulsion, parts of warhead subsystems, power electronics —- everything is sourced locally. 
 

Only the ramjet engine is still imported from Russia - this too will be made in India to achieve 100 % indigenization by 2026. 

 

 

Nope even Brahmos 2 is in the works that is supposed to reach mach 9 speeds... 

Both Russians and Indians are in on this.

2026 date is too generous.  Most of our indigenous supersonic systems are still in testing phase..  CCS permission ke baad hi kuch hota hai idhar.  

Abhi Rudram 1 Air to surface missiles bhi induct nahi hui hai.  Israeli Missiles are being lobbied by corrupt MoD babus for kickbags.

 

Anyways we won't be able to export Brahmos anytime sooner.

 

Brahmos NG is what we need for our MKIs  as of now an MKI can carry only 1 of them... NG version would be lighter and it would be possible to carry two of them...and it supposed be completely indigenous.

[randomGuy]

20 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Our Russian and indigenous platforms are perfectly integrated.

Problem is coming with Rafales.  It's integration is surely an issue.

Souce code saga is well known now 

As French charge insane amount of it to do themselves.

 

Pakistan is too big to fail. The fault lines exist but they can be only exploited in case of a full scale war.

 

Balochis are too few in number to matter. They can only cause some random attacks here and there.. they are even worse off than our Naxal probelm which was something huge.

 

Pakistani military's outright defeat in Pakjab heartland is the only way they disintegrate.

 

 

Lol at 'too big to fail' , rather perfectly ripe to fail - ethnic divisions, geography, economy, religious indoctrination...you underestimate the baloch and pathans.

[Lone Wolf]

40 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

Lol at 'too big to fail' , rather perfectly ripe to fail - ethnic divisions, geography, economy, religious indoctrination...you underestimate the baloch and pathans.

Most of our experts believe they are just a nuisance for Pak army.

Especially Balochis.

 

NWFP is a bigger threat.. as the region is always destabilized and they got taliban right next.  Pak army has a history of losing control in the region. It's hanging by some god knows what reason.  

 

Balochis are not even majority in Balochistan anymore.  Their ethnic cleansing and demographic changes have ensured this.

 

Mukti Bahni had backing of substantial Bengal populace in millions and millions of numbers.  That was  the magnitude of that rebellion.

 

Balochis would need Indian intervention directly to stand a chance.

On their own they would be crushed brutally.

 

Overall Americans and Chinese won't let things get that bad there.

Edited July 30, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[randomGuy]

11 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Most of our experts believe they are just a nuisance for Pak army.

Especially Balochis.

 

NWFP is a bigger threat.. as the region is always destabilized and they got taliban right next.  Pak army has a history of losing control in the region. It's hanging by some god knows what reason.  

 

Balochis are not even majority in Balochistan anymore.  Their ethnic cleansing and demographic changes have ensured this.

 

Mukti Bahni had backing of substantial Bengal populace in millions and millions of numbers.  That was  the magnitude of that rebellion.

 

Balochis would need Indian intervention directly to stand a chance.

On their own they would be crushed brutally.

 

Overall Americans and Chinese won't let things get that bad there.

1. Baloch are militarily solid unlike Bangladeshis 

2. These days satellite intelligence, high tech weaponry (including even rudimentary Ukraine style small drones) can be given to the baloch unlike 1971.

3. Balochistan and kpk share border, there's collaboration between Taliban and BLA.

4. Even if it is not formally independent soon, it will be a no-go for pakjabi army and civilians and their writ will be gone. Also, they will attack infra n mining sites at will. They will have to be paid protection money rather than pakjabi army. 

 

Edited July 30, 2025 by randomGuy

[Lone Wolf]

49 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

These days satellite intelligence, high tech weaponry (including even rudimentary Ukraine style small drones) can be given to the baloch unlike 1971.

3. Balochistan and kpk share border, there's collaboration between Taliban and BLA.

Are bhai drones sabke pass hai aaj kal... Balochis cannot come out in the open to do rebellion like Mukti bahani.. they just don't have the numbers.  They can't control cities or urban centres.

 

Pashtuns can do this though.

 

Balochis can only do some low level hidden bombings on few bases.  

In all likelihood they don't have much presence in urban areas as well.

They stay hidden most of the times.

 

Yes they do weaken Pakistan internally but that's just about it.

Edited July 30, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[singhvivek141]

3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Americans ye hone nahi denge without a nuclear exchange.

 

Win win for them.  As of now India needs to keep militarizing itself with increased emphasis on more indigenous missiles and Air defense systems.

 

In op Sindoor we had to rely on Foren maal in all of our offensive strikes.  

This needs to change 

Brahmos is indigenous only. Yeah, Russia helped us but now it's produced at home. 

 

Prithvi & Agni are ballistic missiles...useful for large scale war. For low scale conflicts which require precision and accuracy...Brahmos came helpful.

 

India revived S-400 as well along with Akash. Everyone was making fun of S-400 before, now the respect has grown multi folds.

 

On the other hand, PL-15, HQ-9, F16 all hv been turned to a joke.

[IndianRenegade]

This is not WW2 era or even the 1990s, russians couldn't mask their intentions in Ukraine. India lost their element of surprise after Balakot, Pak knows to expect a response after it, aided with Chinese ISR they will be ready.

 

India just needs to learn the lesson that there are no brownie points for distinguishing Pakistani terrorists & Pakistani terrorist military, they are one & the same.  The world didn't give a f#ck about India's attempt to make this a non-escalatory act, so India needs to stop giving a f#ck about the world. While Pak knows a response is coming it lacks the means to defend itself at this point, so hit their military first, hit them hard.

Edited July 30, 2025 by IndianRenegade

[Lone Wolf]

8 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Brahmos is indigenous only. Yeah, Russia helped us but now it's produced at home. 

 

Prithvi & Agni are ballistic missiles...useful for large scale war. For low scale conflicts which require precision and accuracy...Brahmos came helpful.

 

India revived S-400 as well along with Akash. Everyone was making fun of S-400 before, now the respect has grown multi folds.

 

On the other hand, PL-15, HQ-9, F16 all hv been turned to a joke.

Bhai F16 is one of the most battle tested fighter planes in the world.  Pakistani pilots may not be that skilled but there is no question mark on American equipment.   Bkl Muricans have armed them with BVR Missiles on their F16's since 2010.

 

HQ-9 is useless against supersonic Missiles and we know Pakistanis don't have its counter.

In fact I highly doubt beyond US Russians and Chinks anyone can intercept supersonic Missiles like Brahmos with high percentage of success rate.

 

PL 15 is an air to air missile... BVR missiles are crucial in dogfights.  It range is false but they do work.

PAF strategy to shoot PL15 and pray.. it sticks

IAF didn't allow them this luxury this time and used standoff Missiles from our own airspace.  Air to surface missiles.

Air to Air mai we have a lot of ground to over.  Astra series is in developmental stage.  Meteor diya nahi hai French ne.

 

No one made fun of S400.  Even China has bought it before us so even they know it works extremely well.

Only our American dalals in India were dhoti shivering ke sanctions lag jayenge etc.. 

 

 

Indian Ballistic missiles program is very secretive like China. There was unverified news that we have tested Et ldhcm  hypersonic cruise missile last week.

 

Brahmos being produced locally doesn't means its indigenous.  Russian maal is still used including Ramjet engine.

That's why per unit cost is 35 crore.

It's costlier than french Scalp, Hammer, Air LoRA types.

 

Cheaper local options are also being looked at.  

[rangeelaraja]

On 7/30/2025 at 12:51 PM, Lone Wolf said:

Brahmos being produced locally doesn't means its indigenous.  Russian maal is still used including Ramjet engine.

That's why per unit cost is 35 crore.

It's costlier than french Scalp, Hammer, Air LoRA types.

 

Cheaper local options are also being looked at.  

 

Brahmos is more than 70 % indigenous - Airframe and structural parts , Navigation and inertial guidance systems, onboard computer and software, Seeker system (in newer versions), warhead and explosive filling, mobile launcher systems, fire control and mission planning systems  -- all are made in India. Besides the ramjet engine almost everything else is indigenous - while it not 100 % indigenous - we are getting from it being almost  entirely Russian origin to it marching towards 100 % local.

 

Your constant ranting about the cost and the reasons for higher cost  - is false 

 

1. Brahmos is costly because it is supersonic ....thermal shielding, and propulsion systems (ramjet or scramjet  ) for supersonic capabilities significantly increase cost -- Scalp , even Tomahawk are all subsonic ( less than 1 mach ) - they all use turbo fan engines - which are much cheaper than ramjet engines.

 

2.  Brahmos is highly customized for land, air and sea -operates all 3 variants.

 

Customizing guidance, boosters, and mounting for these platforms to be used by all 3 services adds development and manufacturing complexity and costs.

 

Most other cruise missiles are single platform - for example Tomahawk had only sea based variants operational for now. 

 

3. Also India's manufacturing is very limited compared to NATO or Chinese scale - the price will come down when we have better economies of scale .

 

Higher capability comes with a higher price tag. 

 

It is pointless to talk about price without having a basic understanding of the reasons and also failing to see the value - it has brutal destructive capabilities because of the kinetic momentum - as was demonstrated during Op Sindor on Pak airbases.  It has shown the ability to sink massive destroyers and frigates with a few hits  -- and fail almost all global air defence systems.

 

I would rather use 1 brahmos that gets the job done than 5 "cheaper" options that get taken down.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[Lone Wolf]

8 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Brahmos is more than 70 % indigenous - Airframe and structural parts , Navigation and inertial guidance systems, onboard computer and software, Seeker system (in newer versions), warhead and explosive filling, mobile launcher systems, fire control and mission planning systems  -- all are made in India. Besides the ramjet engine almost everything else is indigenous - while it not 100 % indigenous - we are getting from it being almost  entirely Russian origin to it marching towards 100 % local.

 

Your constant ranting about the cost and the reasons for higher cost  - is false 

 

1. Brahmos is costly because it is supersonic ....thermal shielding, and propulsion systems (ramjet or scramjet  ) for supersonic capabilities significantly increase cost -- Scalp , even Tomahawk are all subsonic ( less than 1 mach ) - they all use turbo fan engines - which are much cheaper than ramjet engines.

 

2.  Brahmos is highly customized for land, air and sea -operates all 3 variants.

 

Customizing guidance, boosters, and mounting for these platforms to be used by all 3 services adds development and manufacturing complexity and costs.

 

Most other cruise missiles are single platform - for example Tomahawk had only sea based variants operational for now. 

 

3. Also India's manufacturing is very limited compared to NATO or Chinese scale - the price will come down when we have better economies of scale .

 

Higher capability comes with a higher price tag. 

 

It is pointless to talk about price without having a basic understanding of the reasons and also failing to see the value - it has brutal destructive capabilities because of the kinetic momentum - as was demonstrated during Op Sindor on Pak airbases.  It has shown the ability to sink massive destroyers and frigates with a few hits  -- and fail almost all global air defence systems.

 

I would rather use 1 brahmos that gets the job done than 5 "cheaper" options that get taken down.

 

 

True potential of the BrahMos will be realized once all 183 Tejas MK1A jets are delivered. With the induction of Tejas MK2 into service, BrahMos will become even more formidable. At present, only 40 Su-30MKI aircraft are capable of deploying BrahMos.  Each 40 can carry only 1.

We probably would never know how much Brahmos stockpile we have but I am assuming older block variants are in substantial numbers that were used in Op Sindoor.

 

Always remember Brahmos has too small of a warhead to be useful for large scale ground attack. Remember that it's basic design is of an anti ship missile and it didn't need a bigger warhead for that purpose .

It's very good for targeted strikes and should be used the next time India needs to attack terrorist assets instead of using the IAF planes and is also good for some targeting hits on airbases but it cannot disable any airbase on its own because of the small warhead yields and they are also expensive.

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[rangeelaraja]

14 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Always remember Brahmos has too small of a warhead to be useful for large scale ground attack. Remember that it's basic design is of an anti ship missile and it didn't need a bigger warhead for that purpose .

 

 

 

 

 

Nopes.

 

Brahmos is intended for precision strikes on high-value targets  -  ships, bunkers, radar installations.

 

These targets require precision and penetration rather than brute payload size.

 

Even so its  speed and kinetic energy give it enormous destructive force even with a smaller warhead. 

At Mach 3, the impact energy of Brahmos alone is comparable to a much larger subsonic cruise missile.

 

What you are missing is that Brahmos has exceptionally high maneuverability even at Mach 3 ( to evade air defense missiles) . This requires compact airframes - you cannot have this with very large payloads, so there is no point loathing about the "lesser " payload size of Brahmos without understanding the design intent and use case for Brahmos. Much less the price tag due to reasons I already mentioned above.

 

It gets the job done with precision and is extremely hard to stop because of its speed and maneuverability and thats the most important thing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[pkmmamks]

Put your thinking hats on.

 

Cricket bhi to khelna hai

[ravishingravi]

On 7/30/2025 at 5:53 PM, rangeelaraja said:

Even Pak knows they got a very bloody nose with unaccounted massive loses to their air bases especially all the strategic ones.

 

By repeatedly proclaiming that all proxy attacks by Pakistan will be treated as an act of war, India is just giving Pak preparation time, where they can set a trap for us - Pakistan can orchestrate a Pahalgam like attack, and then prepare solidly beforehand for our counterstrike with China and Turkey's full support.

 

I feel there was no need for India to show its hand in this manner and we will be almost always not be faced with an extremely well aware and prepared Pak - losing the element of surprise.

 

No. On the contrary, India has built in one more combination in Pak's mind. Lets be clear. India is pretty active right now within Pakistan. India has a short 2-4 year window to break this land. So, element of surprise or not, this will be done. 

[pkmmamks]

5 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

 

No. On the contrary, India has built in one more combination in Pak's mind. Lets be clear. India is pretty active right now within Pakistan. India has a short 2-4 year window to break this land. So, element of surprise or not, this will be done. 

What gives you confidence of breaking that land. It's backed by two powerful economies of the world 

[ravishingravi]

Just now, pkmmamks said:

What gives you confidence of breaking that land. It's backed by two powerful economies of the world 

 

Not confident. But cautiously assured. In time of multilateral conflict the big powers won't have bandwidth. And small countries can be split through multiple engagements. Btw they are trying to do the same to us. Just that I back India to brazen it out. 

[pkmmamks]

10 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

 

Not confident. But cautiously assured. In time of multilateral conflict the big powers won't have bandwidth. And small countries can be split through multiple engagements. Btw they are trying to do the same to us. Just that I back India to brazen it out. 

Fair. Although looking at what happened to USSR , I don't think any country can brazen it out 

[singhvivek141]

22 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

True potential of the BrahMos will be realized once all 183 Tejas MK1A jets are delivered. With the induction of Tejas MK2 into service, BrahMos will become even more formidable. At present, only 40 Su-30MKI aircraft are capable of deploying BrahMos.  Each 40 can carry only 1.

We probably would never know how much Brahmos stockpile we have but I am assuming older block variants are in substantial numbers that were used in Op Sindoor.

 

Always remember Brahmos has too small of a warhead to be useful for large scale ground attack. Remember that it's basic design is of an anti ship missile and it didn't need a bigger warhead for that purpose .

It's very good for targeted strikes and should be used the next time India needs to attack terrorist assets instead of using the IAF planes and is also good for some targeting hits on airbases but it cannot disable any airbase on its own because of the small warhead yields and they are also expensive.

 

 

 

Brahmos can carry larger warheads as well, though it will come with a cost of range and precision.

Usually, Ballistic missiles can delivery larger payloads...thats where Agni & Prithvi comes in handy. Though India didnt use them and stick to cruise missiles.

[rangeelaraja]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Brahmos can carry larger warheads as well, though it will come with a cost of range and precision.

Usually, Ballistic missiles can delivery larger payloads...thats where Agni & Prithvi comes in handy. Though India didnt use them and stick to cruise missiles.

 

Also Larger warheads cannot be very maneuverable. Brahmos in its terminal phase - when it is most vulnerable to anti-missile systems can do  Zig-zag motion  ( S maneuvering),  High-G turns (up to 5–10 Gs), sudden altitude dips or climbs -- all this is possible because of a relatively lighter warhead.

 

Edited August 2, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[rangeelaraja]

On 7/30/2025 at 9:45 AM, Mariyam said:

Can't this line of reasoning work both ways.

 

Indian intelligence could sight increased Pakistani military activity/ co-operation including logistical support from China & Turkey ergo deduce that they are expecting an Indian attack for a terror attack they are about to commit. Ergo we know that they will try and pull another terror attack. Ergo we are also at a heightened state of alert.

@Mariyam

 

The heightened state of alert doesnt help when you are in a defensive mode.

 

In the defensive " high alert" mode  we are constantly trying to foil attacks - we need to succeed all the time. The adversary just needs to succeed once. 

 

And once they succeed they are also prepared for a tit for tat for our response.

 

The true surprise in such a situation is to hit hard preemptively and defang the enemy vectors before they strike.

 

Thats what Israel does so well.

 

[ravishingravi]

2 hours ago, pkmmamks said:

Fair. Although looking at what happened to USSR , I don't think any country can brazen it out 

 

Any country inward focussed and developing on fundamentals with strong defence can brazen it out. USSR literally was collection of countries. Correct comparison is EU not India.