Ultimate_Game Posted March 15 Posted March 15 (edited) How things have changed for Indian fans from that November 19th night in 2023. That was one of the darkest nights in our history and for the first time since that night I'm over it. Have a hypothetical question for all of you... if you had a choice, would you trade the last 3 ICC tourneys (2 WT20 and 1 CT) for 2023 ODI World Cup? I would've voted after the first couple of trophies but not anymore. That November night acted as a catalyst for us. We finally moved to playing teams with batting depth till 8 and also moved past personal milestones. Who else remembers seeing KL Rahul looking disappointed after hitting the winning shot against Aussies in that 2023 tourney coz he didn't hit a 6 to get to his 100, or watching Kohli getting out against NZ to get to his 100 risking the team's win. And you contrast it with Sanju Samson or Abhishek or Ishan Kishan or Dube's performances where nobody cared about their scores and played for the team throughout! To me this change in team approach (batting depth till 8) and mentality (team over personal milestones) is worth more than the trophy. Had we won the ODI WC in 2023, we wouldn't have changed our approach and probably we would still be saddled with likes of KL Rahul, Gill and Jadeja with the same personal glory over the team. But I would love to hear from you what would you do? Would you trade in these trophies and team consistency in ICC tournies for 2023 ODI WC? Finally we're in a position and can look back at that night and see things from a different perspective. Edited March 15 by Ultimate_Game
Sandz Posted March 15 Posted March 15 November 2023 was the turning point for Indian white ball cricket, so no I wouldn’t change anything. Ultimate_Game, rollingstoned and BacktoCricaddict 1 2
Tillu Posted March 15 Posted March 15 No I wouldn't trade them. A single solitary WC win will not replace the joy and highs we received from three consecutive ICC tournament wins. People assigning arbitrary value to different ICC tournaments are agenda peddlers and sour grapes losers. Ultimate_Game and BacktoCricaddict 1 1
Ultimate_Game Posted March 15 Author Posted March 15 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Sandz said: November 2023 was the turning point for Indian white ball cricket, so no I wouldn’t change anything. 31 minutes ago, Tillu said: No I wouldn't trade them. A single solitary WC win will not replace the joy and highs we received from three consecutive ICC tournament wins. People assigning arbitrary value to different ICC tournaments are agenda peddlers and sour grapes losers. 39 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said: NO. Never. How life changes! Once we would've all traded anything to turn fortunes around that November night and today when we look back at it as a blessing in disguise It turned out to be a catalyst where we finally turned it around and became a team we always wanted - a ruthless winning machine! Edited March 15 by Ultimate_Game Tillu 1
jf1gp_1 Posted March 15 Posted March 15 25 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said: How life changes! Once we would've all traded anything to turn fortunes around that November night and today when we look back at it as a blessing in disguise It turned out to be a catalyst where we finally turned it around and became a team we always wanted - a ruthless winning machine! I don't think we have fundamentally changed post '23 loss. Look at the '24 t20 wc team. It won but they weren't pre-tournament favorites. It was only post 3 retirements that we are seeing the changes. Lets move to ODI. Difference between team likely to play WC27 vs team that lost WC23 final is that the avg age has increased by 4yrs. Star culture has still not gone, chest beating still happens, our experts dont talk about our flaws. Lets be realistic can Rohit, Virat, Iyer, Rahul and Jaddu compete with Duckett, Bethal, Root, Brook, will jack? Yes, in 2020 but not in 2027. I wont give those 3 wins cause we are finally adopting modern day cricket atleast in t20. Had we won 23, there wouldn't have been any change.
Ultimate_Game Posted March 15 Author Posted March 15 18 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said: I don't think we have fundamentally changed post '23 loss. Look at the '24 t20 wc team. It won but they weren't pre-tournament favorites. It was only post 3 retirements that we are seeing the changes. Lets move to ODI. Difference between team likely to play WC27 vs team that lost WC23 final is that the avg age has increased by 4yrs. Star culture has still not gone, chest beating still happens, our experts dont talk about our flaws. Lets be realistic can Rohit, Virat, Iyer, Rahul and Jaddu compete with Duckett, Bethal, Root, Brook, will jack? Yes, in 2020 but not in 2027. I wont give those 3 wins cause we are finally adopting modern day cricket atleast in t20. Had we won 23, there wouldn't have been any change. We have in two respects... 1. In 2023 we played 4-5 bowlers but post 2023 we went to 8-3 approach playing all-rounders to increase batting depth. We brought in Axar and finally understood that tournaments are won due to batting depth and batting depth trumps deeper bowling lineup. This was the difference and the main reason we won the last 3 tournies. 2. Though the star culture is still there, it has reduced since earlier days, and I'm hoping once Kohli and Rohit are done we finally bury the star culture. In the old days there's no way we drop Gill to bring back Samson. Or we see players like Samson getting out around 90 trying to hit a 6 instead of playing risk free to get to 100. We've seen certain stars still do that even in IPL where they take 1s & 2s even in 19th and 20th overs to get to 100 and undermine the team. This is the first time I saw that personal milestones truly didn't matter and everyone tried their best to score as many as possible. We don't score 250+ multiple times without that "team first" approach. Gambhir has his faults but I'll credit him for drilling the team first attitude and getting the team to buy in. Even in the 2024 WT20 final we saw Kohli tuk-tukking to get to his 50 in 48 balls before he started playing aggressively. I doubt anyone in this team plays like that.
jf1gp_1 Posted March 15 Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Ultimate_Game said: We have in two respects... 1. In 2023 we played 4-5 bowlers but post 2023 we went to 8-3 approach playing all-rounders to increase batting depth. We brought in Axar and finally understood that tournaments are won due to batting depth and batting depth trumps deeper bowling lineup. This was the difference and the main reason we won the last 3 tournies. 2. Though the star culture is still there, it has reduced since earlier days, and I'm hoping once Kohli and Rohit are done we finally bury the star culture. In the old days there's no way we drop Gill to bring back Samson. Or we see players like Samson getting out around 90 trying to hit a 6 instead of playing risk free to get to 100. We've seen certain stars still do that even in IPL where they take 1s & 2s even in 19th and 20th overs to get to 100 and undermine the team. This is the first time I saw that personal milestones truly didn't matter and everyone tried their best to score as many as possible. We don't score 250+ multiple times without that "team first" approach. Gambhir has his faults but I'll credit him for drilling the team first attitude and getting the team to buy in. Even in the 2024 WT20 final we saw Kohli tuk-tukking to get to his 50 in 48 balls before he started playing aggressively. I doubt anyone in this team plays like that. I don't know if star culture will ever be gone. It's not a cricket thing it's an Indian thing. You see it in politics, movies, in your day to day life. 8-3 approach is again in T20. We haven't fully adopted it in ODIs. CT because we went with 4 spinners we sort of gave us 8-3 but last NZ series we were back to 4 bowlers (Harshit is not a bowling allrounder)
Nikhil_cric Posted March 15 Posted March 15 I would. ODI World Cups are something else. I think India need to play majority ODIs until the next World Cup and cut down on the T20Is. Settled squads with sufficient ODI experience usually have a big advantage in ODI World Cups. Lord 1
jf1gp_1 Posted March 15 Posted March 15 5 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said: I would. ODI World Cups are something else. I think India need to play majority ODIs until the next World Cup and cut down on the T20Is. Settled squads with sufficient ODI experience usually have a big advantage in ODI World Cups. Do we have an ODI team to win a WC in SA. My answer is no.
Nikhil_cric Posted March 15 Posted March 15 23 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said: Do we have an ODI team to win a WC in SA. My answer is no. And why not ? We can easily develop one by then Australia's Big 3 have declined a lot. As long as we don't make stupid selections like picking 3 spinners in the World Cup squad , playing bowling allrounder at #6 instead of the extra batsman etc., we can easily make a team that can canter to the semis.
vvvslaxman Posted March 15 Posted March 15 No way. World cup is not that important. Yea.. we got unlucky. in 2019, 2023. We were better in 2019/2023 than in 2024/2025/2026. Suddenly we found our luck. SKY catch, Axar catches.
jf1gp_1 Posted March 15 Posted March 15 9 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said: And why not ? We can easily develop one by then Australia's Big 3 have declined a lot. As long as we don't make stupid selections like picking 3 spinners in the World Cup squad , playing bowling allrounder at #6 instead of the extra batsman etc., we can easily make a team that can canter to the semis. Rohit, Virat and Jaddu are fixed in top 7. All 3 at this point are lottery. They could be great they could be horrible. Rahul as keeper in SA will cost us games. 50 over wc is a long long tournament so Bumrah won't be available every game. We are banking on Gill and Iyer along with Hardik and Kuldeep to win is WC. Not saying it can't happen but likelihood is low. Ultimate_Game 1
jf1gp_1 Posted March 15 Posted March 15 4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: No way. World cup is not that important. Yea.. we got unlucky. in 2019, 2023. We were better in 2019/2023 than in 2024/2025/2026. Suddenly we found our luck. SKY catch, Axar catches. I agree with 24/25 team not being good but 26 team is really good.
vvvslaxman Posted March 15 Posted March 15 Just now, jf1gp_1 said: I agree with 24/25 team not being good but 26 team is really good. That is the thing. We corrected the decade old mistake. We elongated the batting depth. Since then we have not looked back. Axar and Pandya lent incredible balance. Now Dube has joined. If only had this kind of depth we would have easily won 2019 and 2023 jf1gp_1 1
Nikhil_cric Posted March 15 Posted March 15 2 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said: Rohit, Virat and Jaddu are fixed in top 7. All 3 at this point are lottery. They could be great they could be horrible. Rahul as keeper in SA will cost us games. 50 over wc is a long long tournament so Bumrah won't be available every game. We are banking on Gill and Iyer along with Hardik and Kuldeep to win is WC. Not saying it can't happen but likelihood is low. I don't think KL will cost us games. But Rohit, Virat and Jadeja are certainly going to be liabilities in those conditions considering how old they all will be. With some bold decision making, we can prepare a squad that is a lot stronger. We have the talent pool to. It's just a question of whether they have the guts to make the tough calls
Ultimate_Game Posted March 15 Author Posted March 15 57 minutes ago, jf1gp_1 said: I don't know if star culture will ever be gone. It's not a cricket thing it's an Indian thing. You see it in politics, movies, in your day to day life. 8-3 approach is again in T20. We haven't fully adopted it in ODIs. CT because we went with 4 spinners we sort of gave us 8-3 but last NZ series we were back to 4 bowlers (Harshit is not a bowling allrounder) It's coz we still have oldies like Kohli, Rohit, KL Rahul and Jadeja. Once they're gone you'll see similar approach in ODIs too. Selectors had a golden chance to move on from most of them after CT but they didn't do so. If they had we would've nearly 2 years to build a team for ODI WC but not to be thanks to selfish seniors and gutless selectors jf1gp_1 1
vvvslaxman Posted March 15 Posted March 15 If we use strict criteria we played 6 tailenders in 2023 final then KL Rahul. Theoritically we were weaker than Austarlia on paper. We had gun bowling unit. But that wicket was good enough for 300 plus runs rollingstoned and Ultimate_Game 1 1
deathmonger Posted March 15 Posted March 15 (edited) No. Maybe 2024 and 2025 but not 2026. This has been the most satisfying win since 2011 considering the way the team was constructed. Preparations began in 2024 itself and this was like a final exam after 2 years of prep which we aced. In a ways similar to England in 2019 or WI in 2012. A new form of aggressive cricket which won the ultimate prize. Edited March 15 by deathmonger rollingstoned, KV244 and Ultimate_Game 1 2
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