India Struggle to Reverse Years of Underachievement

[Gambit]

Tapoica, was it the same RH who did his loony race rants on RSC?

[beetle]

I don't understand why all these people keep complaining about how Indian pitches suit Indian bowlers. Every country in the world produces pitches to suit their players. Yet as soon as India do it, there is a big conspiracy over it. Everybody knows how pitches will behave in India, they should come prepared, its called preparation

true....when they do it ,it's just home advantage.....

[Dhondy]

Vroom-sahib, I am not disputing that we have been Australia's premier opposition, but surely a black hole against three other sides is enough to think about which of our gravitrons are actually beta-particles in disguise? Take the oft-Ahahahahahaed side in these parts. They actually have a winning record in both SL & NZ, although their record in Oz is of course the stuff of legend. I have a fairly simplistic view of all this. I feel India's recent emergence as an overseas force is due to the marriage of Sehwag as a destructive force with some good fast bowling options. I still feel India are one Ishant-Sharma injury away from mediocrity. The difference he made at Bangalore v SA or at Kandy v SL, or at Perth or Mohali v Australia was amazing. One good fast bowler really makes that big a difference. Do India recognise the centrality of a 20 year old in their scheme of things? What if he breaks down tomorrow? Not wishing to disparage the wonderful work done by Zaheer or RP in Ingerland or Sreesanth in SA, we really have no other all-track bowler. Am on tenterhooks. Everytime he dives in the field, I can feel our fortunes one shoulder dislocation away from the plughole.

[Predator_05]

There was no Ishant Sharma at Jo'burg or at Kingston or at Trent Bridge. India will be fine.

[putrevus]

The author is right it doesnt matter if he is racist or not , India needs to win overseas consistently to be called a great side, yes with all our batting power we have been amazingly inconsistent overseas, SL and South africa debacle is shot in arm for all naysayers. Everybody is pumped up with Indians winning one test in Australia , that doesnt make this team a great one, how they lost in karachi when pathan took hattrick in first three balls is still mystery to me, good teams just dont lose matches like that, all fab four put togther could not play two sessions in South africa to draw the series. They need to win series not just test matches here and there overseas to be called a great side, let us hope this team can do just that till then you cannot dispute guys like hendrickson. They won one lousy match in WI when they should have thumped that team at least 3-0.They lost ODI series then same thing in england they lost odi series last time when they went there, in South Africa they never seem to beat them in Odis.They lost miserably there too. Even with all batting talent we never had a bowling unit to compete overseas we have too many inconsistent fast bowlers like sreesanth and RP, who have never matured, hope Ishant Sharma doesnt fall in that category, Bhajji has never done well overseas he has 200 wickets at home of his 300 wickets what does that tell you he just not good enough to win matches overseas.Kumble improved his record somewhat in his later stages of his career , he too was like Bhajji before his improved showing. It is so surprising to me Shane warne who couldn't buy his way to success on spinning tracks in India in his wildest dreams has run thru england and SA batting line ups so consistently and won so many matches in both countries.

[Sooda]

In today's Daily Telegraph, well known columnist Michael Henderson writes, "Furthermore, they (India) are playing at home, where India have always felt comfortable. The wonder is not that they beat other teams, but that they do not do it more often.India, blessed with magnificent cricketers, an unmatched popular enthusiasm for the game, billions of dollars on deposit, and a population 20 times greater than England's, remain the game's supreme underachievers".

I dont think we underachieved. As a Pakistani friend asked me ayear or so ago- Where are your bowlers? We have only had the money to match our enthusiasm relatively recently. That really is the key -money. To invest in better pitches, to invest in grassroots cricket, coaching youngsters. Hence the decentish crop of pace bowlers coming through and overall higher standard of batters. I think we were fortunate to have guys like the fab four all in the same era- they were exceptions. Where now the young batsmen may never be as good as the fab four, there seem to be more of them hopefully over a longer period of time. The point about maginificent cricketers is the same. Have we really been BLESSED with magnificent cricketers ? They dont say bowlers win matches, for nothing. I think we did as well as we could with the 4 great batsmen. But we needed at least 2 geninely good bowlers- and as has been pointed out, Kumble and Bhajj were poor overseas. The pacemen too inconsistent. Where indeed were our bowlers

[THX_1138]

So if we beat them at their game, it is underachievement. I would love to see how they fair at some of the games we have invented... lets start with Kabadi.

[Dhondy]

Ufff, don't you guys read what's written? That second comment was by an Aussie blogger, responding to Atherton's article. Atherton himself said no such thing. In fact he recently singled (doubled?) out India and England as the sides most likely to take over from Australia. If any fans should be slagging him off, it's the South Africans. That Sri Lankan loss still hurts. Mendis made us look like chumps. How can a bloke score a double hundred against him, while his mates made to look like schoolboys on the same track?

[fineleg]

^ mendis/murali challenge is the big challenge next to conquer for india I had a thread on that, but that jealous ofcourse did not realize that and moved it elsewhere but yes M&M it is - we need to innovate to beat M&M

[Tapioca]

Tapoica' date=' was it the same RH who did his loony race rants on RSC?[/quote'] Yes

[punjabi_khota]

^ mendis/murali challenge is the big challenge next to conquer for india I had a thread on that, but that jealous ofcourse did not realize that and moved it elsewhere but yes M&M it is - we need to innovate to beat M&M

Don't you get it that we don't play any tests against them for at least a couple of years ? And that we already conquered them in ODIs . How the hell is that the next big challenge then ?

[fineleg]

read the thread. i did not mean 'next' as in 'next series'

[bunny]

Vroom-sahib, I am not disputing that we have been Australia's premier opposition, but surely a black hole against three other sides is enough to think about which of our gravitrons are actually beta-particles in disguise? Take the oft-Ahahahahahaed side in these parts. They actually have a winning record in both SL & NZ, although their record in Oz is of course the stuff of legend. I have a fairly simplistic view of all this. I feel India's recent emergence as an overseas force is due to the marriage of Sehwag as a destructive force with some good fast bowling options. I still feel India are one Ishant-Sharma injury away from mediocrity. The difference he made at Bangalore v SA or at Kandy v SL, or at Perth or Mohali v Australia was amazing. One good fast bowler really makes that big a difference.

You are giving too much credit to Sehwag (Leave aside the 300 against Pak and the 200 against SL he didn't contribute too much in the other matches we won. In fact he wasn't even part of some of the teams that won matches abroad this decade). On the other hand you are very correct about fast bowlers.

[Dinx - the Jinx]

Vroom-sahib, I am not disputing that we have been Australia's premier opposition, but surely a black hole against three other sides is enough to think about which of our gravitrons are actually beta-particles in disguise? Take the oft-Ahahahahahaed side in these parts. They actually have a winning record in both SL & NZ, although their record in Oz is of course the stuff of legend. I have a fairly simplistic view of all this. I feel India's recent emergence as an overseas force is due to the marriage of Sehwag as a destructive force with some good fast bowling options. I still feel India are one Ishant-Sharma injury away from mediocrity. The difference he made at Bangalore v SA or at Kandy v SL, or at Perth or Mohali v Australia was amazing. One good fast bowler really makes that big a difference. Do India recognise the centrality of a 20 year old in their scheme of things? What if he breaks down tomorrow? Not wishing to disparage the wonderful work done by Zaheer or RP in Ingerland or Sreesanth in SA, we really have no other all-track bowler. Am on tenterhooks. Everytime he dives in the field, I can feel our fortunes one shoulder dislocation away from the plughole.

Dhony dude - You are really pathetic to the core. You dont really sound like someone who is worried about India's fortunes in cricket. You are just trying to credit India emergence to just 1 or 2 individuals and you are hoping (or rather praying) that these individuals break down with injury so that India cannot march ahead with this emergence. You saying that Ishant alone is central to our succes in Bangalore, Kandy and Perth is a load of bull ****. There were other bowlers (ZK had a "unusually good game" at Blr) who contributed tremendously inthose matchs and also our batsmen. And in the current ODI series, we dont look like a team who will miss any particular player.Without Ishant and SRT, we have played and won 2 matches handsdown. So what is your motive here? More than questioning Henderson or Atherton, we have to question your pathetically sulking views about indian cricket. I haven't seen you posting on any celebration thread. Never seen you being happy about any of our Indian wins. For a better part, I thought you were an Aussie. Thats the impression you have given with your posts. And now you dig up some stupid article by some English journo, which we in India would not have bothered to even have a look. Stating it here and creating a thread to discuss the pit falls in indian cricket. As if Abdul Kalam has made some statement about India going down in the coming years and we have to act fast to stop the decline. Who the phack is this Henderson or Atherton? Why on earth we should bother about what they think and say (in anycase what they have said are a load of crap). Is it because you want to quote them and sarcastically say tht we indeed are not as good as what we think we are? If you had said it in a sense where you are truly worried about our current state and would be happy to see us improve then :hatsoff: to you. But you are just quoting them and then hoping that what they said becomes a realty, Ishant breaks his shoulder, Viru loses form again, so that our Indian team doesnt become No. 1. Isnt that your agenda? If thats not your agenda - prove me wrong by showing atleast a couple of posts of yours where you have truly cheered india and celebrated our victory.

[Lord]

You are giving too much credit to Sehwag (Leave aside the 300 against Pak and the 200 against SL he didn't contribute too much in the other matches we won. In fact he wasn't even part of some of the teams that won matches abroad this decade). On the other hand you are very correct about fast bowlers.

yeah n two wickets n 72 runs he scored in perth,the only victory he wasnt part of was england.hes a terrific batsman. n a huge impact on the team.we missed him an first two tests against aus in aus,n he immediately made a diff in perth

[Rajan]

Except south africa, we can beat the other teams we tour from now on for the next 2 years. at least we would not lose the series, worst case we would draw the series. I am nor confident about beating SA because of our batting, not bowling. whether it is the openers or middle order,our batsmen are not comfortable handling a combo of Bounce+ swing+ quality pace. steyn + ntini+ morkels+kallis would be too much to handle for our team in at least one pitch in SA. We would beat the NZ team and settle the issue. no doubts about that. they had Bond last time. even on a complete NZ style pitch or the current Brisbane first day's type wicket on all 5 days, i am sure we will out bat and out bowl NZ. Australian tour is a long way off, but by that time our middle order would be formidable with the new youngsters getting good exposure and guidance with SRT around.Aussies may also lose Hayden and i am not too sure whether Ponting would be at his best. it may be an interesting contest for us, but I back indian team to hit back at sydney and MCG, even if we find it tough at Brisbane and perth(i know v won there last time). We were lucky to escape with a draw in the first test last time in england, but we proved ourselves in the next 2 tests and I dont think they are a big threat. it may be an even contest again, but i fancy our chances other than at Lords. SL can be overcome because already Dhoni, Raina have proved that you can handle Mendis. Gambhir and Sehwag have mastered him more or less. next time, we would have a plan for him and sort him out.the mystery factor would not be there. Vaas may not be around, so a replacement with same accuracy and variation is remote. If we r not confident of playing Malinga, we can as well as stop playing cricket. Murali can certainly be handled. again i dont think we would lose the series. we may not win all series with great margins like West indies sides of the 80's or the Aussies until recently. we may not dominate teams and brown wash in tests.certainly we would not win 17 tests consecutively. but i do not see india losing any series at any country other than SA.

[fineleg]

The most important thing is Consistent good performances esp. when we are touring. Can we show that consistency over a period of time?

[Holysmoke]

The most important thing is Consistent good performances esp. when we are touring. Can we show that consistency over a period of time?

I think we are showing good consistency. We have been consistently doing well abroad since 2000. Won a test series in pak, wi, england, drawn series in aus, (did alright this time around as well, if you discount sydney).. won a test for the first time ever in SA, etc. So I'd say we've been consistent in the past 7-8 years, and we wouldnt be the second best team abroad after AUS if we werent consistent..

[cochise]

Yet, if you just take a deep, deep breath and examine the opinions, alright then, slurs, you begin to see just the teeny weeny beginnings of reason. We haven't ever managed to draw a series in South Africa, Sri Lanka remains a mirage and NZ remain our bogey team away from home.

Yes, we must start winning away from home, that's it. Then one-eyed fans of the opposite persuasion will have no excuses to give anymore. We came close in Oz in 2003 and were unlucky to say the least in 2007-2008. England/West Indies...we have won...this NZ tour is a good one to announce India's push to win away consistently...while the NZ team is not great, the pitches are likely to be as hostile as India is ever going to encounter. If we prepare well, we can do it easily. Note, preparation is key. You just have to adjust your shot selection and your game for fast seaming wickets. Indian's have done it before and can do it again, but they need a proper lead up...not like in Oz this year where even their single practice match was washed out. Look at the recent test between Oz and NZ. Did you see how the aussie batsmen struggled? That is precisely because they are just off the plane from India and are under prepared FOR THEIR OWN HOME CONDITIONS! Thus, if anything and India are serious about winning abroad, they must have adequate lead up time to test matches in which to adjust to the local conditions...both batsmen and bowlers. Then they will hit the ground running. This, in my opinion, is the MOST CRITICAL FACTOR in planning a tour abroad.

[fineleg]

Yes, we must start winning away from home, that's it. Then one-eyed fans of the opposite persuasion will have comeback. We came close in Oz in 2003 and were unlucky to say the least in 2007-2008. England/West Indies...we have won...this NZ tour is a good one to announce India's push to win away consistently...while the NZ team is not great, the pitches are likely to be as hostile as India is ever going to encounter. If we prepare well, we can do it easily. Note, preparation is key. You just have to adjust your shot selection and your game for fast seaming wickets. Indian's have done it before and can do it again, but they need a proper lead up...not like in Oz this year where even their single practice match was washed out. Look at the recent test between Oz and NZ. Did you see how the aussie batsmen struggled? That is precisely because they are just off the plane from India and are under prepared FOR THEIR OWN HOME CONDITIONS! Thus, if anything and India are serious about winning abroad, they must have adequate lead up time to test matches in which to adjust to the local conditions...both batsmen and bowlers. Then they will hit the ground running. This, in my opinion, is the MOST CRITICAL FACTOR in planning a tour abroad.

Excellent post, and you identified the critical issue correctly! :two_thumbs_up: But BCCI buffoons will do what? They'll schedule a T20 tournament to end one week before Test tour to Aus/NZ/SA whatever and then ship them bleary eyed and tired with 2 day "warmup" and into the Test-1 :angry_smile: Infact given how poor the BCCI "preparation schedule" for our players has been, its a miracle they have even won Tests abroad. Thats certainly coz they played very well in last few years and have raised their Test match game.