Swing to win, India

[vvvslaxman]

AFAIK umesh was quicker:dontknow:

No. Avge speed was higher for Ishant . Per raw data Ishant was quicker. But Umesh appeared to be quicker.

[CG]

That is where we fans get fooled by the way they measure speeds. It gives us a false picture .

Yadav looked quick as he bowled full and used his wrist to get zip where as ishant had lost his wrist action.

[vvvslaxman]

Yadav looked quick as he bowled full and used his wrist to get zip where as ishant had lost his wrist action.

Also the trajectory was little low for Umesh.

[JaFanatic]

No. Avge speed was higher for Ishant . Per raw data Ishant was quicker. But Umesh appeared to be quicker.

yea he did seem quicker to the naked eye

[vivek_singh3187]

In Australia Ishant was quicker than Yadav is terms of Top Speed..but Yadav has the ability to sustain pace at longer spells....also with naked eye it always looked that Yadav's delivery hurries to batsman than Ishant. Also one thing I noticed about Ishant is that his speed depends a lot on his partner's speed, if he gets partner lke PK, he usually keep clocking around 130-136kph range...while he bowls with Umesh..his speed notches 5-7kph higher.

[express bowling]

I think almost all great pacers have the ability to create atleast 2 kinds of doubt in the minds of batsmen. (A) Whether to leave the ball or to play it. (B) Whether to come forward or go back, to play the ball. If a bowler can create these doubts, ball after ball, and the batsman has very little time to decide, then wickets fall regularly. It becomes even more difficult for the batsmen when they get hit or there is the possibility of getting hit, because of hostile deliveries. Almost all great fast bowlers and great fast-medium bowlers have true ability to do these things. Just swing bowlers, whether medium pace or fast-medium, create just the doubt of whether to play the ball or leave it, because he either cannot or would not bowl good short balls. Plus, the batsman is less uncomfortable as there is very little chance of getting hit. We need more the first kind of bowlers, whether fast or fast-medium.

[King Tendulkar]

Ishant is bonkers. One day he is bowling 90 mph, other days 80 mph. When Yadav is there, suddenly pace is up. When surronded by trundlers he goes to 80mph.

[The Outsider]

Er I am not saying its about manjrekar. More manjrekar what he said symbolisies the cricket culture in india among coaches, players and fans ie dont worry about pace as we cant do this cos indian and anyway better to focus on line and lenghth with movement. While other countries say bowl fast and also have line and length with movement

Manju is not saying that if you find an Ambrose or a Lillee you keep on playing Bhuvaneshwar Kumar over them. He is saying till the point you find someone like them, it's not bad to give bowlers who show a good, solid skill set with average pace a decent run. What he is saying is that even if you are not able to find bowlers averaging 25, you can still work with ones capable of averaging 30 and they will give you decent results till you find a Hadlee. A 140-145 kmph bowler in India is going to get a good run and all aspiring bowlers know that despite what people write or say. Tell me one such bowler who has not got a decent run in the Indian side. If Munaf becomes a trundler after breaking in the side as a quick bowler, what can columnists do? If Aaron is perpetually injured, what can columnists do? Why do you think Ishant has played 50 test matches despite a mediocre record? It's because he bowls quick. Why do you think Yadav will slot into the side after his injury? It's because he bowls quick.

[Old guy]

Manju is not saying that if you find an Ambrose or a Lillee you keep on playing Bhuvaneshwar Kumar over them. He is saying till the point you find someone like them, it's not bad to give bowlers who show a good, solid skill set with average pace a decent run. What he is saying is that even if you are not able to find bowlers averaging 25, you can still work with ones capable of averaging 30 and they will give you decent results till you find a Hadlee. A 140-145 kmph bowler in India is going to get a good run and all aspiring bowlers know that despite what people write or say. Tell me one such bowler who has not got a decent run in the Indian side. If Munaf becomes a trundler after breaking in the side as a quick bowler, what can columnists do? If Aaron is perpetually injured, what can columnists do? Why do you think Ishant has played 50 test matches despite a mediocre record? It's because he bowls quick. Why do you think Yadav will slot into the side after his injury? It's because he bowls quick.

problem with manjrekar's attitude is forget finding there would be no 140k bowler to back if u put emphasis on pace then only young kids will bowl quick..

[The Outsider]

problem with manjrekar's attitude is forget finding there would be no 140k bowler to back if u put emphasis on pace then only young kids will bowl quick..

I am no fan of Manju, but people are being needlessly harsh on him based on this article. He is not saying pace is not important, he is not asking to stop searching for a genuine quick. He is saying that till the point you find someone invest in the likes of Kumar, Pandey, Kaul - all of whom have been praised even on ICF, so that you have an attack capable of taking 20 wickets. In fact he explicitly praises Yadav for his pace. But till you can find 3-4 Yadavs don't just stop the development of the bowlers you have at hand at the moment - the bird in hand is better than two in the bush saying.

[Old guy]

I am no fan of Manju' date=' but people are being needlessly harsh on him based on this article. He is [b']not saying pace is not important, he is not asking to stop searching for a genuine quick. He is saying that till the point you find someone invest in the likes of Kumar, Pandey, Kaul - all of whom have been praised even on ICF, so that you have an attack capable of taking 20 wickets. In fact he explicitly praises Yadav for his pace. But till you can find 3-4 Yadavs don't just stop the development of the bowlers you have at hand at the moment - the bird in hand is better than two in the bush saying.

no team has 4 yadav's :P and most people here dont even consider guys like kaul or pandey slow ..its just headline of article making people mad :giggle: also there is a difference between 130k avg and 137 k avg people forget that most teams right now dont have tear away quicks..how fast was finn bowling in tests? its common sense to pick guys u mentioned over some one like ishant who can jsut be quick but useless but problem is article made people think he is saying just stay content with swing bowlers..

[vvvslaxman]

Policy should be to pick the best wicket taking bowlers available slow or super slow or express. That joker sreesanth had some potential. But he wasted everything.

[maniac]

Policy should be to pick the best wicket taking bowlers available slow or super slow or express. That joker sreesanth had some potential. But he wasted everything.

Agree...also he could have been handled better too.....in his case 30% mishandling and the rest his own damn fault I like how we have managed Yadav so far but i fear he might be the opposite of Sreeshanth in the case of playing too less games and lacking enough match practice for the big games when he could actually be useful

[Old guy]

Agree...also he could have been handled better too.....in his case 30% mishandling and the rest his own damn fault I like how we have managed Yadav so far but i fear he might be the opposite of Sreeshanth in the case of playing too less games and lacking enough match practice for the big games when he could actually be useful

no he is playing ideal number of matches.. concentrating just on tests is not really a bad thing abd before that he even played ranji

[rkt.india]

Also the trajectory was little low for Umesh.

Yes. Trajectory is one of the most important aspect of bowling whether pace or spin. Lower trajectory shorts bowlers look quicker to naked eyes when they bowl fuller and hurry the batsmen more than tall bowlers with higher trajectory.

[youngindia]

Check out his stats from his last year and you will see why pace is largely irrelevant to the discussion of great fast bowling. For Ambrose bowling at 78mph was heck of a lot better than anything we've ever seen an Indian produce since Kapil Dev's glory days.

do find champion bowlers bowling in the 120's in their prime and then we can talk . to dream that a 5 7-5 10 indian trundler who huffs and puffs to 125 in his prime (and with no athletic skills or physical gifts to compared to those in the caribbean) will succeed because ambrose bowled a bit slower at the end of his career is in don quixote territory. its not going to happen. these are naturally faster and superior bowlers operating at lower speed.just like how afaster sprinter can reach slightly lower speeds with less effort. consider individual strengths and weaknesses.walsh suceeding at lower speeds(against mediocre english batsmen) is not even a guarantee that other great bowlers will succeed.its a function of his individual gifts. and there maybe extraordinaryfactors to explain someone like mcgrath " A survey on osteoporosis in Dubbo found all four of McGraths grandparents had bone density at least 1 1/2 Frac times stronger than normal. Ive got that as well, said McGrath, who missed only a handful of Tests through injury during his career. I had a bone scan about 18 months ago on my back and the lady said it was the most perfect back shed seen in respects to the scan. guys like donald and gillespie were pensioned off when they dropped in pace. indian swing bowlers will be of 32-39 average variety.kapil and botham are the best you are going to get and even they could not maintain longevity. asfor vaas and zaheer leading an attack that will suceed anywhere,whatare you smoking? they are useful servants for their national sides at a particular time.they won'tmake any side great.

[youngindia]

The Indians would never make this list because the Indians have not been accurate enough in the first place. Name one Indian pacer, sans Kapil Dev that would be even the top 10 most accurate pacer going around in his career.

lack of pace is also a part of mediocrity.why does this simple fact escapes you? the more gifted bowlers find a way atleast past 130+ the best indian bowlers have also bowled above 130 but could not be an all time great. it could be true that great bowlers can be found at srinath's or ishant's pace. but the fact remains most other lesser indianbowlers of the past decades could not bowl at sufficient pace. even now,there are more bowlers needed above 138. hence lack of pace is a factor in indian cricket.

[maniac]

no he is playing ideal number of matches.. concentrating just on tests is not really a bad thing abd before that he even played ranji

Once again please read the post...I said we are managing him well so far....I am saying we shouldn't completely phase him out from LOI's....the best managed bowler like Steyn for exampe is always used well in important LOI's like T20 WC or important ODI tournaments....He just doesn't come into the team from nowhere in these tourneys....he is played here and there to keep him in the LOI scheme of things...Umesh needs to bowl in some LOI's in between so that he doesn't completely forget how to bowl in a LOI

[Marut]

you are joking right? the guy who once held the test and odi record for the highest wicket taker is not a atg bowler? or did you start watching cricket in the 2000's?

How is a guy with bowling average of 30 an ATG? He is an Indian great. Highest number of wickets in 131 matches beating a guy who played 80 matches does not make him the best.

[Marut]

Ishant was as fast as siddle if not faster and certainly faster than yadav in last australian tour clocking 152km/h and many spells in 145k+ range.

Ishant has no consistancy in terms of speed. One day he can go 90 next match he struggles to cross 80. Siddle is far more consistant.