God damnit Dhoni will be retained as cap for Test team

[CG]

The best comment in the entire discussion! :haha: CG - Kitni baar bolna hoga yeh?

Yaar try kar raha huin.

[Magneto]

It is already in jeopardy. If you have a problem but no viable solution, the problem remains. As i said, it is completely insane to think an unestablished player can be captain. Graeme Smith did it because he was a captain since the U-15 days and was a clear-cut 'alltime great' potential as an opening bat (Graeme smith averages 50 as opener. Prior to him, the best Saffie opener to play more than half a dozen or so tests is Kirstien, with 44 average). Plus, he proved his chops by scoring an astonishing amount of runs for an opener. None of our newbies in the test team have that kind of captaincy & batting pedigree to back them up, as i said, even Pujara is one/two terrible series away from being dropped.

When Graeme Smith was chosen as opener - he had played less Tests than Pujara, had a lesser average than Pujara and had scored lesser Test centuries than Pujara. He had also not played a single Test outside SA. So, there is nothing to suggest that he had better credentials or exposure than Pujara. In terms of captaincy, Pujara had captained the India-A pretty well in the recent past. Smith did the same - captained the A-team. So, not much difference between the two in their short careers.

[Number]

Nope but then I don't want changes just for the sake of it. Kohli IMO is the only option but his recent struggle with the bat will delay him being made the captain. Needed some good consistent scores. Gambhir or Sehwag do not deserve to be captain much the same as Dhoni doesn't deserve to be the captain. TO simply put it, I want Gadkari to go but do not want Rajnath Singh as the captain either :--D

Now here I think you are thinking wrong. Yes, they all 3 have sucked as players (Gambhir-Sehwag recent , Dhoni mostly) but all 3 can be given some run in the side as we need some experience in the team. But Dhoni doesn't deserve to be the captain because he has led the side to the worst stretch in the history, not because he sucked as a player but his captaincy sucked. Sehwag-Gambhir , they don't deserve the captaincy because of their own performances but the current captain is totally incompetent and results are getting worse and as a player he is no better than these 2.

[Lord]

Yaar try kar raha huin.

just say Viru:dontknow:

[King Tendulkar]

Dhoni out and Sehwag out

[CG]

just say Viru:dontknow:

k.

[Number]

Dhoni out from captaincy and Sachin out(max 1 test)

I'll go with this.

[Vivek.S.123]

Dhoni should quit the T20 format, but remain captain of both tests and ODIs

[Crookbond]

What am I supposed to do when you are judging Sehwag's captaincy based on one test where he was filling in? Bow to your astute insight of drawing such profound conclusions based on one test?

I can only do from what I see unlike your highness who has a crystal ball into the future. I saw no empirical evidence of Sehwag bringing in any change in terms of captaincy is concerned in terms of IPL, ODIs or the couple of Test matches he has captained. Forget evidence, there is no slight change in strategy as well. On one hand we have captain cool and on another we have jaat buddhi cool.

But based on your criteria, there is evidence to suggest that Gambhir will be better. The difference between Sehwag and Tendulkar/Dhoni is that Tendulkar/Dhoni are tried and tested failures whereas Sehwag has not got a decent run.

Based on my criteria, MS Dhoni still becomes the better captain by pedigree. No.1 Test rankings, IPL (well I shouldn't say anything), CLT20, ODI WC 2011, WT20 - heck I don't even know if there's any other captain out there in the world who has got that record. In addition, just because someone is tried & tested failures does not mean he can't improve. Brian Lara is one such example. I would rather bote for a calm captain than one which brings a divisive culture to the team - Sehwag certainly is the typical divisive figure and despite him being a better option I would like to write him off.

He did set a more attacking field for a longer time. It did not work and the result was the same but he showed a more aggressive approach which would yield better results over a larger sample of matches than a one off test.

Well, if he set attacking fields why was there not even an inkling of an difference to the result. The attacking fields led toe highest total scored by the Australian batsman in a Test innings in the entire series. Now, this is not to judge Sehwag and his captaincy but to say that captaincy is hardly a matter of concern currently.

[Muloghonto]

When Graeme Smith was chosen as opener - he had played less Tests than Pujara' date=' had a lesser average than Pujara and had scored lesser Test centuries than Pujara. He had also not played a single Test outside SA. [/quote'] So what ? he'd been captain for their junior teams for 5+ years and he already had numbers to be competetive with the best RSA openers in their history. Also, not having played outside of RSA for an opener is not a terrible thing- opening in RSA is no different than doing it in England & NZ and harder than doing it anywhere else. So what exactly do you want in a player, who is 22, has been captain for 5+ years and already has numbers to assure him an extended run in the team ? Smith had been captain of ALL RSA teams since U-19 levels. Also, Smith the opener had excellent record in conditions that are highly challenging to an opener and was a garantee in the team pretty much after his first 5-6 tests. Pujara is not a garantee, his 'great start' has not come in conditions testing of a middle order bat (atleast, for an Indian bat) and he hasn't been a captain for his entire tenure in the junior teams.

[Crookbond]

Yaar try kar raha huin.

Dhoni jaise mat bol, filhaal aapka record 0-7 hai in saying Shewag instead of Sehwag. :icflove:

[Magneto]

So what ? he'd been captain for their junior teams for 5+ years and he already had numbers to be competetive with the best RSA openers in their history. Also, not having played outside of RSA for an opener is not a terrible thing- opening in RSA is no different than doing it in England & NZ and harder than doing it anywhere else. So what exactly do you want in a player, who is 22, has been captain for 5+ years and already has numbers to assure him an extended run in the team ? Smith had been captain of ALL RSA teams since U-19 levels. Also, Smith the opener had excellent record in conditions that are highly challenging to an opener and was a garantee in the team pretty much after his first 5-6 tests. Pujara is not a garantee, his 'great start' has not come in conditions testing of a middle order bat (atleast, for an Indian bat) and he hasn't been a captain for his entire tenure in the junior teams.

It's not important that someone captains teams all his life. I don't really care whether Pujara captained in U-15 or U-12 or U-8. The point is that he's been captaining India-A for the last one year and has been pretty decent at that. As a batsman, Pujara's 72 against Australia came under testing circumstances and his innings in Wankhede came under conditions where no other Indian could put bat to ball. His numbers as a No.3 is also as good as any other No.3 we've had. He already has 3 hundreds (including a double ton) in 9 Tests and there is no evidence to suggest that his spot in under jeopardy. Also, in no way was Smith's spot absolutely guaranteed. In fact, many SA cricketers advised Smith to first guarantee his spot in the team, play for 4 years and then take the captaincy up. If he wasn't the captain and would have failed in the next 2 series he would have been dropped as well. The way he was dropped from the ODI team before the World Cup.

[The Outsider]

I can only do from what I see unlike your highness who has a crystal ball into the future. I saw no empirical evidence of Sehwag bringing in any change in terms of captaincy is concerned in terms of IPL, ODIs or the couple of Test matches he has captained. Forget evidence, there is no slight change in strategy as well. On one hand we have captain cool and on another we have jaat buddhi cool.

So, if you see no change then what's wrong in giving him a run? It's not that I am asking for a winning captain to be replaced. At the very least it might rid Indian test cricket of hacks like Raina and Jadeja.

Based on my criteria, MS Dhoni still becomes the better captain by pedigree. No.1 Test rankings, IPL (well I shouldn't say anything), CLT20, ODI WC 2011, WT20 - heck I don't even know if there's any other captain out there in the world who has got that record. In addition, just because someone is tried & tested failures does not mean he can't improve. Brian Lara is one such example. I would rather bote for a calm captain than one which brings a divisive culture to the team - Sehwag certainly is the typical divisive figure and despite him being a better option I would like to write him off.

0-4, 0-4, 1-2 at home, 3 consecutive early exits from WT20, early exit from Asia Cup, early exit from CB series etc. etc. more than covers for those even if I were to go by your naive and simplistic way of judging a captain.

Well, if he set attacking fields why was there not even an inkling of an difference to the result. The attacking fields led toe highest total scored by the Australian batsman in a Test innings in the entire series. Now, this is not to judge Sehwag and his captaincy but to say that captaincy is hardly a matter of concern currently.

Because this is not an exact science. Even if you do the right thing, there is no guarantee that you will get results every time. All you do is give yourself a better chance and Sehwag's approach is going to give better results than Dhoni's over a larger sample. Anyhow, I am done here. No point continuing a discussion with someone who confuses correlation with causality and judges captaincy based on one test match depending on what the name of the player is, not to mention attributes false statements.

[Muloghonto]

It's not important that someone captains teams all his life. I don't really care whether Pujara captained in U-15 or U-12 or U-8. The point is that he's been captaining India-A for the last one year and has been pretty decent at that.

How many games did Pujara captain India-A ? Graeme Smith had captained a team for well over 50+ matches before he was given national captaincy. It is important to have experience in decision-making, man-management and thinktank coordination that are part and parcel of being a captain and this is where Smith had oodles of experience while Pujara barely has any.

As a batsman, Pujara's 72 against Australia came under testing circumstances and his innings in Wankhede came under conditions where no other Indian could put bat to ball. His numbers as a No.3 is also as good as any other No.3 we've had. He already has 3 hundreds (including a double ton) in 9 Tests and there is no evidence to suggest that his spot in under jeopardy.

He has done zilch outside of the subcontinent, which is the true test of a middle order bat. Smith had already scored at a blazing amount of runs in one of the most testing circumstances as an opening bat and as such, he was assured far greater leeway than Pujara has right now. As i said, if Pujara has a sub-30 average against OZ and in RSA, he would be a goner. Smith had more rope than that.

Also, in no way was Smith's spot absolutely guaranteed. In fact, many SA cricketers advised Smith to first guarantee his spot in the team, play for 4 years and then take the captaincy up. If he wasn't the captain and would have failed in the next 2 series he would have been dropped as well. The way he was dropped from the ODI team before the World Cup.

No. Smith's spot was garanteed for atleast the next half a dozen series, if not more, sort of how Faf du Plessis has garanteed his spot in the RSA team for the next year. Smith showed up, scored at 55+ average as an opener, for a nation who's best opener had 44 average. That in of itself is enough of a rope to garantee for atleast the next year or two.

[Crookbond]

So, if you see no change then what's wrong in giving him a run? It's not that I am asking for a winning captain to be replaced. At the very least it might rid Indian test cricket of hacks like Raina and Jadeja.

I don't see why I should give a change to a more divisive character and persona who has no emphasis on personal fitness. Guess for me attitude is important. There are slacks but Sehwag throughout his career has shown to counter team-interests and ethos. The only reason he still continues (or not) is due to a very shrewd individual who knows when to stop and go.

0-4, 0-4, 1-2 at home, 3 consecutive early exits from WT20, early exit from Asia Cup, early exit from CB series etc. etc. more than covers for those even if I were to go by your naive and simplistic way of judging a captain.

The same person also won the CB series, Asia cup and it was not three "early exits" but just two. We qualified for the Super 6s in the previous edition. So now what it evens things out - it clearly points out to one simple fact : fix the more immediate and important problem rather than running amok over what angle the first slip should've been placed at.

Because this is not an exact science. Even if you do the right thing, there is no guarantee that you will get results every time. All you do is give yourself a better chance and Sehwag's approach is going to give better results than Dhoni's over a larger sample.

There is no evidence to prove Sehwag's method can give a better result than Dhoni. At large, it will make us "feel better" that he attacked and lost. There is no empirical evidence to suggest - attack is the ONLY method of success "over a large sample". Some more insights by a fantastic writer here - http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/570919.html There's just too much fuss been made over this attacking theory which is more attractive and pleasing to the eye than a result oriented strategy.

Anyhow, I am done here. No point continuing a discussion with someone who confuses correlation with causality and judges captaincy based on one test match depending on what the name of the player is, not to mention attributes false statements.

Likewise.

[ganeshran]

If Dhoni had any shame, he would himself give up the test captaincy. Sehwag can play the role that Kumble did post Ganguly and wait till one of Kohli / Pujara proves himself worthy of the role. He has a 1-10 record in tests along with the cardinal sin for an Indian captain of losing at home to a side which itself was struggling in unfamiliar conditions. It is puzzling how he still continues to be entrusted with the leadership position

[Marut]

If Dhoni had any shame, he would himself give up the test captaincy. Sehwag can play the role that Kumble did post Ganguly and wait till one of Kohli / Pujara proves himself worthy of the role. He has a 1-10 record in tests along with the cardinal sin for an Indian captain of losing at home to a side which itself was struggling in unfamiliar conditions. It is puzzling how he still continues to be entrusted with the leadership position

:two_thumbs_up: Those arguing for Dhoni here perhaps don't realize that Dhoni stands to loose a lot of income if he gives up captaincy. Dhoni is the highest paid cricketer in the world, and he isn't going to part with all that so soon.

[putrevus]

The problem with Dhoni is he has totally lost grip on how to handle bowlers when things are going tough.He becomes so defensive and little clue on how to get things back in control and always reactive rather than being proactive. I always gave Dhoni benefit of doubt for 0-7 but this series loss against England was unacceptable.His ridiculous team selection going with three spinners and he badly wanted to beat England in the series but he totally lost his what ever little mozo he ever had in tests. All seniors in team who did much more to India reaching no1 than Dhoni never got their just dues, Dhoni always got the credit when India was winning and seniors got all the flak when India lost. Guys like Sehwag who has been undermined by Dhoni , always resent Dhoni and I don't think it has helped the team in anyway.Even after the England series all the talk was about Sehwag and Gambhir performances rather Dhoni's inept captaincy and lack of leadership skills. England is definitely not a better team from India in India if not for Dhoni totally screwing the things up they would have won the series.Throwing his own players under the bus never serves any captain well.

[Shunya]

There is no empirical evidence to suggest - attack is the ONLY method of success "over a large sample". Some more insights by a fantastic writer here - http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/570919.html There's just too much fuss been made over this attacking theory which is more attractive and pleasing to the eye than a result oriented strategy. .

That's an awesome article. :two_thumbs_up:

[CG]

As i said in this situation where a captain barks for turning pitches and gets his ass hammered by opp and groundsmen.Only a shameless one will continue .DHoni needs to be kicked out and anybody can be given the captaincy he will do much better than backing jadeja at no 7 and baffling team tactics like dhoni did through the series.