The Outsider Posted August 10, 2013 Posted August 10, 2013 BSP was the most corrupt government in history.They spent 1000s of crores in building statues of Mayawati and co.Not to mention about the disappropriate assests cases againist her. SP is widely considered the most gunda party in UP.You better start watching a few TV discussions regarding this.Certain communities can get away with anything in UP during SP rule. BJP's vote share in UP is on the rise if current surveys are to be believed. BJP lost UP because of Mr.Gupta. What garbage!:hysterical: BJP was BSP and SP rolled into one and some more. Ask anyone from UP with an iota of knowledge of politics about the kind of gundaraaj that Raja Bhaiyya subjected the state to. Mayawati might have embezzled 1000s of crores, which the BJP did as well, but at least she got rid of gundagardi and netagiri from universities and colleges, which were being used by SP and BJP as breeding grounds for their gundas. Mulayam might have spread gundagardi, which the BJP did as well, but he was not throwing 14 year old kids in jail on non bailable offenses for cheating in an exam, on occasions just to settle political scores. You are either biased or have no clue about UP - in either case it's pointless carrying this discussion further.
The Outsider Posted August 10, 2013 Posted August 10, 2013 If Modi supporters say Secular or Communal' date= Modi has done better job in Gujrat than Congress ever did in any state. What would you say on that ? BTW, I dont want to make it a Modi thread. When I say BSP/SP have done a better job than BJP that includes the secular/communal angle. The reason I mentioned it to ravishing ravi ji was because I felt irked at his constant secular/communal supposedly funny references in a lot of threads related to politics, many having nothing to do with the secular/communal theme. It's not only him - there is also asterix and adi B, but he just happened to post in this thread before them and I wanted to vent it out.
Clarke Posted August 10, 2013 Posted August 10, 2013 BTW the crux of Akhilesh Bhaiya's argument on suspending Durga was maintaining communal harmony.
The Outsider Posted August 10, 2013 Posted August 10, 2013 BTW the crux of Akhilesh Bhaiya's argument on suspending Durga was maintaining communal harmony. It was and it has been talked about in other threads related to the issue. This thread was about Azam Khan's remark on the need for a civil service system - in my opinion bringing the secular/communal angle serves no purpose to advance the discussion on the topic, but if people feel it does go ahead and discuss it by all means. I just expressed my view as a poster, and not a moderator or admin.
Raghav_12 Posted August 10, 2013 Posted August 10, 2013 What garbage!:hysterical: BJP was BSP and SP rolled into one and some more. Ask anyone from UP with an iota of knowledge of politics about the kind of gundaraaj that Raja Bhaiyya subjected the state to. Mayawati might have embezzled 1000s of crores, which the BJP did as well, but at least she got rid of gundagardi and netagiri from universities and colleges, which were being used by SP and BJP as breeding grounds for their gundas. Mulayam might have spread gundagardi, which the BJP did as well, but he was not throwing 14 year old kids in jail on non bailable offenses for cheating in an exam, on occasions just to settle political scores. You are either biased or have no clue about UP - in either case it's pointless carrying this discussion further. You have been exaggerating effects of that "nakal virodhi (anti-cheating)" initiative. In many part of the UP, board exams are jokes. They are open book exams. Local gunda's and mafia take contracts to give students full help during these exams. Teachers and invigilators are threatened and rendered as mute spectators while students cheat, impersonate and do all sort of things. There were cases where jeeps full of gunda's wil stand outside examination center to ensure that their students get all kind of support. BJP had taken that initiative to stem out that culture from education system. Problems happened that they went in this initiative with iron fist, leading to some excesses. I don't recall hearing things related to political manipulation in that drive. To compare BJP government with the gunda raj that SP unleashes everytime it comes in power, citing that particular drive is laughable.
Malcolm Merlyn Posted August 10, 2013 Posted August 10, 2013 What garbage!:hysterical: BJP was BSP and SP rolled into one and some more. Ask anyone from UP with an iota of knowledge of politics about the kind of gundaraaj that Raja Bhaiyya subjected the state to. Mayawati might have embezzled 1000s of crores, which the BJP did as well, but at least she got rid of gundagardi and netagiri from universities and colleges, which were being used by SP and BJP as breeding grounds for their gundas. Mulayam might have spread gundagardi, which the BJP did as well, but he was not throwing 14 year old kids in jail on non bailable offenses for cheating in an exam, on occasions just to settle political scores. You are either biased or have no clue about UP - in either case it's pointless carrying this discussion further. Garbage?Yea!!!!Ofcourse,if it doesnt fit with your assumptions its garbage. Where do i see Thousand of crore worth of parks with statues of Rajnath singh/Vajpayee and SP mookerjee in UP?You know which parks you will find in UP.Please tell me about the scams in UP during BJP times? I didnt see any BJP minister saying IAS should be abolished. How many UP board or local UP college exams have you given?14 year olds will come with Knives and Kattas in some cases to threaten the invigilators and cheat. I have enough clue about UP,visiting Benares where my relatives still reside,every year. Next time do check a few reports about the BJP/BSP/SP govts in UP. Corruption was highest in BSP govt.Crime highest in SP govt. Its easy to call someone bias,to wriggle out of a debate. Raja Bhaiya is still there and he is now with SP.
Malcolm Merlyn Posted August 10, 2013 Posted August 10, 2013 You have been exaggerating effects of that "nakal virodhi (anti-cheating)" initiative. In many part of the UP, board exams are jokes. They are open book exams. Local gunda's and mafia take contracts to give students full help during these exams. Teachers and invigilators are threatened and rendered as mute spectators while students cheat, impersonate and do all sort of things. There were cases where jeeps full of gunda's wil stand outside examination center to ensure that their students get all kind of support. BJP had taken that initiative to stem out that culture from education system. Problems happened that they went in this initiative with iron fist, leading to some excesses. I don't recall hearing things related to political manipulation in that drive. To compare BJP government with the gunda raj that SP unleashes everytime it comes in power, citing that particular drive is laughable. BJP is BAD.Thats Outy's principled opinion.So he will even defend the likes of BSP and SP. Now i am waiting when he will say Digvijay Singh was better than Shivraj Chauhan in MP.
The Outsider Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 You have been exaggerating effects of that "nakal virodhi (anti-cheating)" initiative. In many part of the UP, board exams are jokes. They are open book exams. Local gunda's and mafia take contracts to give students full help during these exams. Teachers and invigilators are threatened and rendered as mute spectators while students cheat, impersonate and do all sort of things. There were cases where jeeps full of gunda's wil stand outside examination center to ensure that their students get all kind of support. BJP had taken that initiative to stem out that culture from education system. Problems happened that they went in this initiative with iron fist, leading to some excesses. I don't recall hearing things related to political manipulation in that drive. To compare BJP government with the gunda raj that SP unleashes everytime it comes in power, citing that particular drive is laughable. Firstly, it was not a "drive". It was a draconian law, and it was just provided as one example of BJP's messed up governance. I'll give some more in my reply to sunnyji. Secondly, there are laws to deal with gundagardi already in place. If someone is bringing gundas, there are laws for that. If someone is impersonating a student, there are laws for that. "Some excesses"? LOL! Thirdly, it was used for political manipulation as well.
The Outsider Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 Garbage?Yea!!!!Ofcourse,if it doesnt fit with your assumptions its garbage. My assumptions? Read up the Liberhan Commission report to find out what your hero Kalyan Singh did. Where do i see Thousand of crore worth of parks with statues of Rajnath singh/Vajpayee and SP mookerjee in UP?You know which parks you will find in UP.Please tell me about the scams in UP during BJP times? Are construction of parks the only way to be corrupt. There were 100 freaking ministers in the BJP government. Yeah, that's right every second ruling party MLA was a minister. Each and every defector from Congress and BSP was made a minister. I suppose they were all clean. But since you are specially interested in parks, the Ambedkar Park in Lucknow in which Mayawati made a killing, guess who was her partner in crime - Lalji Tandon. I didnt see any BJP minister saying IAS should be abolished. Do you know that in the months preceding the the Babri Masjid demolition, Kalyan Singh made a record 350+ transfers? Mayawati and Mulayam haven't been able to beat that. It was beaten by another BJP CM, Guptaji who made 300+ transfers in 3 months after taking office. Do you know how Kusum Rai used to order around IAS/IPS officers and about her behavior. Bet you'll need to google to find out who she is. How many UP board or local UP college exams have you given?14 year olds will come with Knives and Kattas in some cases to threaten the invigilators and cheat. So? Aren't there already laws to deal with students carrying knives and kattas? I have enough clue about UP,visiting Benares where my relatives still reside,every year. Quite obviously, you don't because if you knew the above facts and still are saying what you are saying I really don't know what to say. Next time do check a few reports about the BJP/BSP/SP govts in UP. Corruption was highest in BSP govt.Crime highest in SP govt. And BJP has all that more good stuff like large scale rioting. Its easy to call someone bias,to wriggle out of a debate. Raja Bhaiya is still there and he is now with SP. Yeah, I know where Raja Bhaiya is but looks like you did not know that he was in BJP - the clean party with a difference and no gundagardi. :clap:
rkt.india Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 G How many UP board or local UP college exams have you given?14 year olds will come with Knives and Kattas in some cases to threaten the invigilators and cheat. . Which 14 year old gives board exams, I am yet to come across anyone.
Number Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 When I say BSP/SP have done a better job than BJP that includes the secular/communal angle. Fair enough. :nice: Which 14 year old gives board exams' date=' I am yet to come across anyone.[/quote'] I gave mine when I was 15. lol..
Malcolm Merlyn Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 My assumptions? Read up the Liberhan Commission report to find out what your hero Kalyan Singh did. Liberhann commision?You mean the same ONE man commision which was constituted by a Congress govt. in 1992 and submitted its report to a Congress govt. in 2009?I wonder why it couldnt/didnt submit its report during years of non congress rule? Not saying that the Babri Masjid demolition was the right thing.No it wasnt.But state govt.s under other parties in India have also failed to stop riots etc.Why single out only one? Are construction of parks the only way to be corrupt. There were 100 freaking ministers in the BJP government. Yeah, that's right every second ruling party MLA was a minister. Each and every defector from Congress and BSP was made a minister. I suppose they were all clean. Was there a law in those days limiting the no. of ministers?NO.So nothing illegal was done.Again please come up with some reports or scams involving monetary deals during BJP rule in UP and compare there scale with whats happening now. But since you are specially interested in parks, the Ambedkar Park in Lucknow in which Mayawati made a killing, guess who was her partner in crime - Lalji Tandon. Was Lalji Tandon in govt?If yes in what capacity? Do you know that in the months preceding the the Babri Masjid demolition, Kalyan Singh made a record 350+ transfers? Mayawati and Mulayam haven't been able to beat that. It was beaten by another BJP CM, Guptaji who made 300+ transfers in 3 months after taking office. Do you know which great man was the CM of UP before Kalyan Singh?And how he posted people belonging to certain communities to certain places. Guptaji was lets say not the sharpest brain around. Do you know how Kusum Rai used to order around IAS/IPS officers and about her behavior. Bet you'll need to google to find out who she is. Wasnt she a PWD minister?So i guess she had IAS under her who were to follow her orders.Again i havent seen IAS officers made to touch her feet or polish her shoes. So? Aren't there already laws to deal with students carrying knives and kattas? Where they enough to curb the menace?NO.So a harder stance was needed.What do you do with 14-15 year olds carrying knives and kattas and threatning to kill people?If not take strict action. Quite obviously, you don't because if you knew the above facts and still are saying what you are saying I really don't know what to say. When was the last time you actually were in India and stayed a few months in UP?The question here isnt,How bad BJP was in UP.BJP may not have been great,but BSP and SP are worse. And BJP has all that more good stuff like large scale rioting. Has happened in every state under many other parties.Why single out BJP?Who were the ruling parties in Maharashtra and Bengal at that time?What happened there? Yeah, I know where Raja Bhaiya is but looks like you did not know that he was in BJP - the clean party with a difference and no gundagardi. :clap: No one said no Gundagardi or Clean party.Much less Gundagardi and much less corruption. Btw did you see the latest surveys in UP?Did it break your heart?SP and BSP trailing BJP.
Malcolm Merlyn Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 Which 14 year old gives board exams' date=' I am yet to come across anyone.[/quote'] Oh go to UP.Everyone can give exams there.There are professional cheating gangs there who will take money to help you cheat.There would be jeep loads of armed goondas outside exam halls.
rkt.india Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 Which govt. has had more scams NDA govt. in central or UPA govt. in central?
Clarke Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 Which govt. has had more scams NDA govt. in central and UPA govt. in central? Let me ask you a counter question: Who is more s*****r or inclusive :P
Khalpat Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 Let me ask you a counter question: Who is more s*****r or inclusive :P That question should be asked only when we are discussing the policies of a Maniac CM of one of the state of Western India. Other than him everyone is Secular and Inclusive.
Raghav_12 Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 Firstly, it was not a "drive". It was a draconian law, and it was just provided as one example of BJP's messed up governance. I'll give some more in my reply to sunnyji. Secondly, there are laws to deal with gundagardi already in place. If someone is bringing gundas, there are laws for that. If someone is impersonating a student, there are laws for that. "Some excesses"? LOL! Thirdly, it was used for political manipulation as well. As if you haven't heard about specific laws. You have specific laws for crime against SC/ST. You have specific laws for women. You have specific laws for organized terrorism. and there are many more cases where specic laws have been made despite having other laws. Specific laws are made to make laws more effective in certain cases and this was no different. Mass scale cheating can be stopped only with special measures.
The Outsider Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 Which 14 year old gives board exams' date=' I am yet to come across anyone.[/quote'] What age did you take your class X board exams? Most of my class was 14 or 15, with some 16. Let's see biased, according to you? Not a surprise because it shreds Kalyan Singh and UP government based on facts. Opinions and interpretations maybe biased, but how are you going to deny the facts. Why it couldn't submit the report under non Congress rule? Because Kalyan Singh was running around like a pussy to avoid questioning by the commission. How can the commission submit any meaningful report without questioning the CM at the time of the demolition? Right. So tell me such instances of even remotely the same scale under SP and BSP in UP? Let's keep the discussion in context and not throw red herrings about other states and parties. Confine yourself to UP, BJP, SP, and BSP. LOL! Can't believe you are so blinded by bias that you are justifying the 100 ministers thing. Do you know that a third of them were facing criminal charges? A lot of them murder charges? It was a joke which thoroughly embarrassed the central leadership of the BJP. Each and every MLA from Naresh Agarwal and Jagadambika Pal's parties was made minister. How is that not blatant corruption? Not to forget the various allegations of corruption against the ministers while they were in power. Please explain how is that any better than SP and BSP? And yeah, it wasn't illegal at the time - it was made illegal after seeing how the loophole was exploited to encourage rampant corruption. Yes, he was. He was the Urban Development minister in Mayawati's government. As I said, Kalyan Singh did more transfers than Mayawati or Mulayam in a certain period of time. Care to prove me wrong? So? Are we not going to take his administration into account when we are discussing the performance of BJP, SP, and BSP governments in UP? No, she was a corporator and Kalyan Singh's rakhail. So, how are IAS officers supposed to follow her orders? Not to mention she amassed tens of crores of rupees of wealth in a few months. See that's the thing - you are utterly clueless. You don't know that Lalji Tandon was a minister under Mayawati and the one who was not a minister, Kusum Rai, you are saying was a minister. Here, this would be a starting point for you: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/proximity-to-kalyan-singh-clout-she-wields-make-kusum-rai-an-unusual-power-centre/1/253671.html Hang on! So you are saying that 14-15 year old kids carrying knives and kattas could not be arrested because of the existing laws, rather than the implementation and once the anti copying act was enforced, police were able to arrest them? That's laughable. If it was such a great law, why was it struck down by the court? Bias against BJP? Why did the law get near universal ire from all padhe likhe log? Bias against BJP? No, they are not. I stayed in UP for 3 months two years back - does that qualify for your last multiple month stay qualification? Are we discussing Maharashtra and Bengal? No, we are discussing BJP, SP, and BSP in the context of UP. So, please tell me instances of large scale rioting like in '92 under the SP and BSP governments? Yeah, that's why on every aspect they have worse records. Why should it break my heart? The next elections in UP are in 2017 - what survey say today has little meaning. So, if it was such a good law why was it universally lambasted by all academics and later struck down by the courts?
adi B Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 how is kalyan singh today pertinent to bjp`s UP exploits at present :dontknow: ,he is irrelevant to bjp now.. since outy said no one from 84 riots from congress is active today ,same way kalyan is not associated with bjp now so why talk about what he did in UP in the 90`s,dragging his name to say bsp,sp did better than bjp(which might be true)..his govn of 90s is irrelevant to how bjp (if bjp rules UP) governs today over there
The Outsider Posted August 11, 2013 Posted August 11, 2013 how is kalyan singh today pertinent to bjp`s UP exploits at present :dontknow: ,he is irrelevant to bjp now.. since outy said no one from 84 riots from congress is active today ,same way kalyan is not associated with bjp now so why talk about what he did in UP in the 90`s,dragging his name to say bsp,sp did better than bjp(which might be true)..his govn of 90s is irrelevant to how bjp (if bjp rules UP) governs today over there Where did I say he is relevant or irrelevant to BJP in UP today? The discussion is not about who one would vote for in the next elections, which are too far away to be of any worthwhile discussion. The discussion is about which past and current government among BJP, SP, and BSP has been the worst. BTW, Rajnath Singh is still relevant in UP and BJP, and was also very relevant in the previous BJP rule as well. Was also CM. So, 3-4 years down the line we will have a discussion on Rajnath Singh's exploits as minister and CM of UP.
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