Dhoni and Fletcher need to go

[Laaloo]

I would have more respect for Dhoni if he owned up to his mistakes and dont put blame on others when things dont work out. That hasn't happened so no. Dhoni needs to go. He can continue captaining in ODIS as long as he wants to but Tests no. He doesnt get it. his chamchas can keep drinking all the kool aid they want to but Dhonis test career has been over for a while now.

[asterix]

Unless there's a Political intervention, it's very difficult to force him to go. He, like previous Indian stars, very well knows that Indian public has very short memories and it's always a good decision to go on a high (if you have strong connections in BCCI)... Going on high means a juicy series at home against a reasonably competent opposition...

[suhas12]

Who would u replace them with really? No other options in captaincy right now. Be patient.

[Yoda-esque]

It is quite reasonable to say that this is as far as MSD can a take a test team at this stage of his captaincy - We are likely to win most, if not all of our games at home. Away, at best can be competitive and still lose (like we did in South Africa, New Zealand and likely in England as well). At worst, we could be mediocre and lose badly (like we did in England and Australia in 2010-2011) When we went through that terrible 0-8 against England and Australia 3 years ago, everyone was extremely critical of MSD’s captaincy. But even the most ardent critics cut him some slack because the consensus feeling was MSD was essentially carrying a bunch of dead-wood in his team – A group of seniors – Dravid, Sehwag, Sachin, VVS, Zaheer, Bhajji etc - who were well past their primes and that simply didn’t have the mojo to perform consistently at test level. None of them are in our test team today. This is essentially a brand new test team. More importantly, the current core of 15-16 players is likely to be the nucleus of our test team for some time in the future. And THIS is where MSD’s captaincy comes into play. I don’t think, in his head, he truly believes that he can away with this group of players. He always seems to rationalize every defeat by pointing out to a deficit of talent/skill, especially in the bowling department. That is very demoralizing to this young group of players. Long story short – it seems like MSD goes into test series abroad with the expectation of losing. That is a very hard place to start as a captain and then win from there. And then of course, there’s the elephant in the room – his test batting abroad. It is very hard to be extremely critical of a guy who scored a 50 in the first innings of the last test (and scored a 80 in the first test), but its just not the sheer quantity of runs he is making abroad, but the manner in which he does them that is also damning. His test batting abroad inspires no confidence whatsoever, he almost always fails in key moments and whatever quantiy of runs he does make, can be misleading because they often come in dead-match situation. After nearly 7 years of observations, I think it is reasonable to pronounce that MSD the test batsmen abroad is incompetent, almost even impotent. And it’s hurting us badly. That no.7 spot is so valuable in test matches these days and to have somebody who is incapable of consistently performing there is damaging India’s chances in test cricket abroad. Btw, popular to contrary opinion, I don’t think that MSD has cemented his place as India captain using super glue and cannot be usurped at all. Popular opinion in 2012 seemed to indicate that the selectors were this close to stripping his captaincy after the 0-8 debacle, but Srini intervened to keep him. I am sure there are a lot of murmurs within the corridors of BCCI in terms of what’s next for MSD. If they cannot see the writing on the wall now, they cant see it ever. Better still, maybe it’s time for MSD to do himself a favor and step aside from the test side. By all accounts, he is supposed to have considered retiring from international cricket altogether after the 2015 WC. If there’s even a semblance of truth in that, now is the time for him to step aside from test duties and focus all his energies into defending the world cup crown in Australia (which is going to be one hell of a challenge) MSD has been a great, GREAT servant of Indian cricket, one our very best ever. It’s a shame that a majority of the fans here cannot step back and step back and appreciate the totality of his achievements, but often throw disrespectful barbs at him after getting lost in the disappointment of the moment. His eventual (exit) from Indian cricket will be an irreparable loss for Indian cricket. But now is the time for him to accept the inevitable. Make no mistake, it’s in fact a burden to India captain, a burden that MSD has carried for the last 7 years admirably with a true sense of responsibility and patriotism. But his presence in the test side is hurting our test chances. It is time to move on.

We expect so much more from his batting only because he is probably one of the best ODI bats in history.So this elephant in the room is relative only because his ODI batting is a Godzilla. His test batting statistics are still good anough to warrant a place in the test side considering that he performs the WK role. When you speak of the No.7 spot, when last did we have somebody that turned innings for India at that spot ? MSD still has a decent test average ,probably the best amongst all the wicketkeepers that have played for India.It wasn't like the earlier test teams kept conquering on foreign soil, so I think when you talk about his test batting being bad,its a bit of an exaggeration.

[Sachin=GOD]

We expect so much more from his batting only because he is probably one of the best ODI bats in history.So this elephant in the room is relative only because his ODI batting is a Godzilla. His test batting statistics are still good anough to warrant a place in the test side considering that he performs the WK role. When you speak of the No.7 spot, when last did we have somebody that turned innings for India at that spot ? MSD still has a decent test average ,probably the best amongst all the wicketkeepers that have played for India.It wasn't like the earlier test teams kept conquering on foreign soil, so I think when you talk about his test batting being bad,its a bit of an exaggeration.

Here's the thing - he himself has raised our expectation with regards to a WK batsman so now that he's not living upto those standards in Tests (and he really has been pretty bad overseas), people are bound to question his place in the side.

[Yoda-esque]

Here's the thing - he himself has raised our expectation with regards to a WK batsman so now that he's not living upto those standards in Tests (and he really has been pretty bad overseas)' date=' people are bound to question his place in the side.[/quote'] Compare his stats with every other WK that has played for India and give an objective answer

[Lord]

We expect so much more from his batting only because he is probably one of the best ODI bats in history.So this elephant in the room is relative only because his ODI batting is a Godzilla. His test batting statistics are still good anough to warrant a place in the test side considering that he performs the WK role. When you speak of the No.7 spot, when last did we have somebody that turned innings for India at that spot ? MSD still has a decent test average ,probably the best amongst all the wicketkeepers that have played for India.It wasn't like the earlier test teams kept conquering on foreign soil, so I think when you talk about his test batting being bad,its a bit of an exaggeration.

no he doesnt perform the role,he stands way back and drops dollies or leaves them for slips

[Laaloo]

no he doesnt perform the role' date='he stands way back and drops dollies or leaves them for slips[/quote'] and misses stumpings

[Sachin=GOD]

Compare his stats with every other WK that has played for India and give an objective answer

That is what I am saying - he raised the bar and now he is not performing (hasn't performed well in overseas tests for a long time) so obviously his place in the side will be questioned. Another thing is that just because wk-batsmen in the past weren't really good with the bat doesn't mean that that should be the case even now - we do have other options that could be tried. And his keeping has also not been top notch recently.

[undisputed chap]

We expect so much more from his batting only because he is probably one of the best ODI bats in history.So this elephant in the room is relative only because his ODI batting is a Godzilla. His test batting statistics are still good anough to warrant a place in the test side considering that he performs the WK role. When you speak of the No.7 spot, when last did we have somebody that turned innings for India at that spot ? MSD still has a decent test average ,probably the best amongst all the wicketkeepers that have played for India.It wasn't like the earlier test teams kept conquering on foreign soil, so I think when you talk about his test batting being bad,its a bit of an exaggeration.

I agree. It's not like he hasn't been getting scores even in this series he has been the 3-4 best bat. He has already scored a couple of 50's in this series. I don't see why he needs to go.

[Yoda-esque]

That is what I am saying - he raised the bar and now he is not performing (hasn't performed well in overseas tests for a long time) so obviously his place in the side will be questioned. Another thing is that just because wk-batsmen in the past weren't really good with the bat doesn't mean that that should be the case even now - we do have other options that could be tried. And his keeping has also not been top notch recently.

I said,give an objective answer. In my mind there's no doubt that he is the best keeper - bat combo we have and there won't be anyone else like him in the near future. I will end my comment here since I feel like Henry Fonda in "12 Angry Men"

[Sachin=GOD]

I said,give an objective answer. In my mind there's no doubt that he is the best keeper - bat combo we have and there won't be anyone else like him in the near future. I will end my comment here since I feel like Henry Fonda in "12 Angry Men"

Thankfully.

[Laaloo]

So much delusion

[ThePhenomenal1]

MSD is finished in tests. At the test level you need some solidity. Can we ever rely on msd to save a test match? NO. You know he will nick to slips or keeper. Better option as said above would be to focus on ODI cup and go out on a high. He is a legend but at the test level a burden. His batting, his keeping, his selections, tactics, rotation and use of bowlers - all has messed up india's test performance. You know when he's overall happy with rohit giving his wicket up

[CSK Fan]

I said,give an objective answer. In my mind there's no doubt that he is the best keeper - bat combo we have and there won't be anyone else like him in the near future. I will end my comment here since I feel like Henry Fonda in "12 Angry Men"

Stats hide the fact that unlilke keepers like Prior, Dhoni doesn't even make 100s, just 50s in lost causes to boost his stats. In fact he doesn't have a single 100 in his career overseas. When he is amongst the senior most batsman in the team, more is expected from him Since 2011, Dhoni averages 25 away. That is an Afridisque average. Karthik averages 38 away in the last 3 years of his career, much more than him.Even at home, most of his knocks have come when other batsmen have scored, seldom in desperate situation. Best wicket keeper bat indeed. I simply refuse to believe that we cannot have a wicket keeper averaging more than 25 in the whole country

[CSK Fan]

I agree. It's not like he hasn't been getting scores even in this series he has been the 3-4 best bat. He has already scored a couple of 50's in this series. I don't see why he needs to go.

Couple of 50s (and just 50s, not even 70-80s, doesn't hide the fact that he has been a complete failure overseas. Averages 25 in 3 years. Even at best and when he is lucky, at max he will score a 50 which does not make any difference to the score, he is incapable of scoring big 100s

[Ram]

We expect so much more from his batting only because he is probably one of the best ODI bats in history.So this elephant in the room is relative only because his ODI batting is a Godzilla. His test batting statistics are still good anough to warrant a place in the test side considering that he performs the WK role. When you speak of the No.7 spot, when last did we have somebody that turned innings for India at that spot ? MSD still has a decent test average ,probably the best amongst all the wicketkeepers that have played for India.It wasn't like the earlier test teams kept conquering on foreign soil, so I think when you talk about his test batting being bad,its a bit of an exaggeration.

You know who disagrees with your statement that MSD's test batting is not as bad it seems and it only looks bad because he's a goliath in the ODI game? The MSD of 2010. Many people may be surprised by this, but MSD had a terrific start as a test batsmen, playing multiple match-saving/match-winning/match-winning innings in his first 4 years in the test team. Here's a post of mine from 4 years ago (wow, how time flies), where i make an impassioned case in favor of MSD as test batsmen - http://indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?p=1165396&highlight=dhoni+perth+lords#post1165396 The degradation in his test batting from his earlier years is alarming. To be clear, i am not saying MSD of 2014 is a bad test batsmen compared to somebody like Gilchrist. I am saying MSD of 2014 is a bad test batsmen compared to MSD of 2008. Now, it maybe ok if he was slightly under average as a test bat, if he continued winning games for India as a tactically brilliant India captain. But these days, his captaincy is devoid of creativity, vigor and any sort of intent. It's almost as though he goes into a game with a set playbook, executes against it and hopes that the opponent plays less badly than his team does so that he can win. I had initially though this was a mere co-incidence, but the fact that we have come so close to dominant positions in away test series only to fritter away the advantage so many times points to only one thing - Lack of creative, strategy driven leadership. MSD of 2014 simply cannot take us over the hump. Which brings us to the next question? If he's been demonstrably mediocre for so long, how the hell has he been at the helm all along? I think there's a variation of the Andy Flower phenomenon happening in Indian cricket. Toward's the end of Flower's coaching tenure with England, the popular word in the press was that this man was simply too powerful to be challenged, too influential to be replaced and too big to fail. I am seeing a bit of that with MSD. Despite obvious glaring deficiencies in his captaincy, i dont see any player/selector/board member come out and question his strategy. Dont get me wrong - i am not saying he's some sort of mafia force who simply scares people into submission. Rather, i think MSD has been in power for so long, people/players are now simply afraid to speak up. Or it could also be that he's such a popular, elder-brother like figure that no one wants to take shots at what they perceive to be their own family. While we are on this topic, it is also relevant to study MSD as a person/individual. For all intents and purposes, you can call MSD quite un-Indian in nature. If anyone here is asked to come up with adjectives to describe, here's what the list would typically look like - Mentally tough, with a facade that belies none of his emotions, cool, collected, impassioned, not sentimental, not excitable. I was watching a TV interview of Ravi Ashwin from a few years ago, when he was asked to say a few words about some of CSK team-mates. Ravi did a wonderful job giving amusing descriptions of people like Balaji, Badri, Murali, Haydos etc, but when the anchor eventually got to the captain MSD, Ashwin (whom i think is an EXTREMELY smart guy and future India captain prospect), was simply lost for words. I am paraphrasing him here, but he said something along the lines 'I dont what to say. I simply have not been able to get a read on this guy. He does not say much, it is nearly impossible to know what he's thinking at any given time..' Back then, i didnt make much of that comment, but it kinda makes sense to me. As much has he's been in the team for nearly 10 years now, i dont think any one in our team can claim themselves to be close to the Indian captain. When the big 4 Sach-Dravid-VVS-Ganguly retired, none of them ever really mentioned MSD with fond memories in their retirement speeches and i dont think that was by accident. MSD is not close to anybody on the team and i think that is mostly by design. Essentially, nobody in the team knows him well to challenge him and his sphere of influence within the Indian team has simply overgrown to the point where even objective criticism is probably perceived as being a sign of revolt.

[undisputed chap]

Couple of 50s (and just 50s' date=' not even 70-80s, doesn't hide the fact that he has been a complete failure overseas. Averages 25 in 3 years. Even at best and when he is lucky, at max he will score a 50 which does not make any difference to the score, he is incapable of scoring big 100s[/quote'] It's not his job to score centuries. The top 6 batsmen above him should do it. It's the batsman's job job to score centuries or doubles. His prime job is to keep wickets at which he is among the best available in the country. Much better then the dk's & parthiv's.

[vvvslaxman]

If he truly believes in his batting ability abroad let him show the guts to play 5 genuine bowlers. Because of his own self doubts he keeps pushing for 6 batsmen despite we have zero credible 5th bowling option.

[vijay50]

If he truly believes in his batting ability abroad let him show the guts to play 5 genuine bowlers. Because of his own self doubts he keeps pushing for 6 batsmen despite we have zero credible 5th bowling option.

Dhoni itself is not confident of scoring 30-35 runs in each innings he walks out. By keeping the 6th batsman, he can always say, hey if Rohit cant do it dont expect much from me. If we dont play the 6th batsman, he will be exposed as seen in Lords test. Dhoni has to man up, play 5 bowlers and accept his failures and consistently try to score 30 runs in each innings.