Dhoni and Fletcher need to go

[Yoda-esque]

If he truly believes in his batting ability abroad let him show the guts to play 5 genuine bowlers. Because of his own self doubts he keeps pushing for 6 batsmen despite we have zero credible 5th bowling option.

Saurav played 7 batsmen,so he must be a gutless captain as well

[vvvslaxman]

Saurav played 7 batsmen' date='so he must be a gutless captain as well[/quote'] I have told 100 times. He had geuine 5th bowling option from top order. Ganguly, Tendulkar, Sehwag, uvraj they could all bowl.. I am talking about Tests wherre we never played 7 batsmen. I don't subscribe to Gangul's theory as well. But we were not hurt that badly because we had options. Also quality of bowlers Ganguly had was much better. Only one bowler was bowling well. He bowled that one bowler to the ground. I ddont know what problem he has with Binny, three times in a row he did not use his bowling on purpose and dropped him immediately after 2 tests to accommodate another batsman .

[vvvslaxman]

Dhoni itself is not confident of scoring 30-35 runs in each innings he walks out. By keeping the 6th batsman, he can always say, hey if Rohit cant do it dont expect much from me. If we dont play the 6th batsman, he will be exposed as seen in Lords test. Dhoni has to man up, play 5 bowlers and accept his failures and consistently try to score 30 runs in each innings.

He is good on flat tracks. Third test was on a flat track. So it was bizzarre thinking to go in with an extra batsman. This is the problem with Indian mentalit. When 2 or 3 batsmen are out of form we just try to compensate that with a btasman. If a bowler goes out of form.. then also they will pack the side with batsman. This batsman centric team selection is why we rarely we win more than 1 test away.

[vvvslaxman]

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/423128/defensive-dhoni.html Defensive Dhoni G Unnikrishnan, Manchester, Aug 01, 2014, DHNS: Indian captain needs his aggressive streak of Lord's The legacy of teams is built around desire and mercilessness. The all-conquering West Indians of the 80s were a merry bunch off the field, but on it they were determined to win everything on their way. The Australians of the 90s and 2000s resembled a biker gang of the Hollywood movies, aggressive, loud talking and ready to punch an opponent down on any given occasion. For them, defeat, simply, was not an option. The current Indian side under MS Dhoni does not match up to those giants but they showed a rare persistence to finish off a Test away from home, while notching up a 95-run win over England at the Lord’s. So, there was pervading sense of optimism ahead of the third Test at Southampton. But at the Ageas Bowl a different India turned out. They dropped the fifth bowler, and included Rohit Sharma. Perhaps, Dhoni thought it would be better to beef up the batting since he didn’t use the fifth bowler – Stuart Binny in this case – to a good extent in the first two Tests. It may be a valid reason but that move sent out a wrong message about India’s intent. They were trying not to lose the match rather than trying to win the Test and possibly the series too. That lack of purpose spilled over to the match as well. In the absence of the injured Ishant Sharma, the Indian bowlers lacked someone whom they could have turned for a different opinion in a crisis time. Unlike in Trent Bridge and Lord’s, the Southampton pitch offered a different challenge. The bowlers needed to hit the deck hard to get some purchase, and India didn’t have that kind of bowler with Ishant warming the benches. Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Mohammad Shami, mainly swing bowlers, thus struggled to get anything out of the pitch. Once his two main bowlers were rendered ineffective, the burden on debutant Pankaj Singh and Ravindra Jadeja. Though he went wicketless, courtesy a couple of dropped chances, Pankaj bowled with gusto, but it was naïve to expect him to run through a side. Jadeja could be a dangerous customer on pitches that have rough patches, but once Alastair Cook elected to bat first the left-arm spinner didn’t have too many chances to use the wear and tear. England off-spinner Moeen Ali was the fortunate one, and he rattled India with a six-wicket haul. Dhoni also gave another naked indication of India’s defensive mindset when he asked Jadeja to bowl negative line to Cook and Garry Ballance during the second session of the first day. Legendary Shane Warne seethed from the commentary box: “You can’t give in on the first day of a Test match. You’re 1-0 up in the series. That’s absurd.” Those tactics would have appeared strange for Warne, an uncompromising warrior in his playing days. That brings to us the priceless question: why R Ashwin is not playing? Of course, the off-spinner has not tasted grand success abroad in his two outings in Australia and South Africa. But that’s not reason alone to leave him out of the squad. The Chennai man does deserve another chance on two counts. Ashwin’s ability with bat has been proved beyond doubts, while he also can provide more number of overs than either Rohit or Binny. The presence of another wicket-taking bowler will give Dhoni an attacking option, and also some extra time for his frontline pacers to relax. Dhoni has been averse to playing two spinners away from home, pinning his reason mainly on the nature of the pitches but time might just have come for him to be a tad more tactically flexible. He showed hints of that in the first two Tests, not just in picking up the eleven but in bowling rotations and field placements. The Jharkhand man now needs to recapture that aggressive attitude if India are to mount a serious challenge in the remainder of this series.

[vijay50]

I have told 100 times. He had geuine 5th bowling option from top order. Ganguly' date=' Tendulkar, Sehwag, uvraj they could all bowl.. I am talking about Tests wherre we never played 7 batsmen. I don't subscribe to Gangul's theory as well. But we were not hurt that badly because we had options. Also quality of bowlers Ganguly had was much better. Only one bowler was bowling well. He bowled that one bowler to the ground. I ddont know what problem he has with Binny, three times in a row he did not use his bowling on purpose and dropped him immediately after 2 tests to accommodate another batsman .[/quote'] He doesnt have enough confidence in Binny's bowling abilities.Dhoni's theory is , if you cant pick wickets ,choke runs which Binny seem to leak (> 3 rpo). So he stopped using him. I think Dhoni must tell Binny that he wont be dropped till WI series and bowl well.If Binny is not developed properly we may still have same problem even in australia ( bowlers breaking down and lack of consistent wickets from top 3 bowlers, spinners also not picking much wickets).Dhoni must give time and confidence to Binny to show what he's got. Even I was wondering why they selected this joker Binny for tests.When I saw him make that 50 in his first test, when the chips were down, I thought he deserves the series. Agreed he was playing Stokes and Ali more compared to Anderson and Broad, but the current batters cannot even play Ali well.

[maniac]

We need to move away from this mind set of-"But he is an allrounder" excuse.We tend to use that with Dhoni a lot and now we started doing the same for Sir Jadeja. Batting All Rounders Here is how it works a Genuine Allrounder is someone who is a specialist at one aspect of the game first but he is so good at the other aspect that he can be termed as an allrounder....For Eg;Kallis is a batsman first.His wicket taking ability and skill with the ball makes him a special player and S.A can get away even if he doesn't bowl well but they cannot if he doesn't score runs-Plain and simple,Him being a really good bowler makes him a special player but he is a batsman first. Watson may not be in the same league but again his performances with the bat hold more value and his bowling is an added bonus. WK-Batsman Gilchrist wouldn't have had the same value if he was a Kamran Akmal behind the stumps...He was a world class keeper who had this special gift as a batsman-Just like Kallis once in a life time player. May be not in the same league as Gilly but same applies to Boucher. Bowling All-rounders Imran,Kapil,Botham,Hadlee where the spearheads for their respective attacks,Their Batting was a bonus but their prime job was to take wickets and lead the attack,their batting ability was what made them special as an add on quality but their bowling is what made them invaluable. Now we face this dielema with Dhoni and Jadeja We are happy with Jadeja's 30-40 justifying that he is an all-rounder....so what is his primary skill? I am not comparing him with the legends above but what is his specialty?I am assuming since he hit 3 300's it is batting....but does he look the part as a test level batsman......Now we are justifying saying that he picks up wickets here and there as our primary spinner,Surely he is not the best spinner in the country.....So why is he in the test squad. Same goes for Dhoni.....Is he a Test level bat?Yeah he has a beastly average for a keeper but does he back himself as a batsman?...SO fine his keeping must be world class.....which in reality it is not. So that means we have 2 players who are not the best in either one department,they are a little bit of this and little bit of that. Add Binny to the mix and we have 3 bits and pieces players. For me Bhuvi has played the role of an all-rounder-For Eg;He is doing well in his primary skill which is bowling and making important invaluable contributions with the bat and that's how he should continue.Focus on his primary skill and contribute with his secondary skill in which he has a natural talent. We have completely misused the All rounder term....In-fact in our quest we have made a genuine bowling talent in Irfan Pathan into a useless bits and pieces cricketer

[vvvslaxman]

He doesnt have enough confidence in Binny's bowling abilities.Dhoni's theory is , if you cant pick wickets ,choke runs which Binny seem to leak (> 3 rpo). So he stopped using him. I think Dhoni must tell Binny that he wont be dropped till WI series and bowl well.If Binny is not developed properly we may still have same problem even in australia ( bowlers breaking down and lack of consistent wickets from top 3 bowlers, spinners also not picking much wickets).Dhoni must give time and confidence to Binny to show what he's got. Even I was wondering why they selected this joker Binny for tests.When I saw him make that 50 in his first test, when the chips were down, I thought he deserves the series. Agreed he was playing Stokes and Ali more compared to Anderson and Broad, but the current batters cannot even play Ali well.

That is total BS> He picked 6 for 4 in Bangladesh. Losing confidence after giving substantial number of overs is one thing. Losing from the get go is freaking unbelievable. His statement lin the third test post match conferencec confirmed that. The remark was downright condescending. "We used 5th bowler only ofr 8 and 10 overs" . Seriously Dhoni. A tailender posts a record partnership of 198 . you say only 4 bowlers were needed? Is he even for real?

[vvvslaxman]

Dhoni never made any remarks about Ishant after years of sucking. Umesh yadav failed in one match. He trained his AK47 at him in the press conference. The thing is he is a cunning guy. If he decides to play someone he will come up with 100 reasons. If he doesn't want someone he will do everything in his powers to belittle him.

[maniac]

Dhoni never made any remarks about Ishant after years of sucking. Umesh yadav failed in one match. He trained his AK47 at him in the press conference. The thing is he is a cunning guy. If he decides to play someone he will come up with 100 reasons. If he doesn't want someone he will do everything in his powers to belittle him.

Glad you are finally seeing the light. Just need to you come on board on 2 more point of views:--D

[CG]

Dhoni is one of the most shameless guys on the planet.The guy always blames others than himself and jumps to take credit for small things.

[vijay50]

That is total BS> He picked 6 for 4 in Bangladesh. Losing confidence after giving substantial number of overs is one thing. Losing from the get go is freaking unbelievable. His statement lin the third test post match conferencec confirmed that. The remark was downright condescending. "We used 5th bowler only ofr 8 and 10 overs" . Seriously Dhoni. A tailender posts a record partnership of 198 . you say only 4 bowlers were needed? Is he even for real?

Yeah, but Dhoni was not the captain when Binny picked those wickets. It was Raina, Again I dont think Dhoni reads too much into performance against BD in ODIs. As far as Dhoni is concerned, Binny is a quota player. Since Binny was keeping his loverboy Rohit out, he tried to prove Binny is useless in first test by giving him less overs. But Binny made a 50 and so he was forced to keep him for 2nd match.Same strategy again. Binny failed with Bball and bag and he is out.Rohit in .Bingo. Regarding Ishant, see another thread.

[vvvslaxman]

Yeah, but Dhoni was not the captain when Binny picked those wickets. It was Raina, Again I dont think Dhoni reads too much into performance against BD in ODIs. As far as Dhoni is concerned, Binny is a quota player. Since Binny was keeping his loverboy Rohit out, he tried to prove Binny is useless in first test by giving him less overs. But Binny made a 50 and so he was forced to keep him for 2nd match.Same strategy again. Binny failed with Bball and bag and he is out.Rohit in .Bingo. Regarding Ishant, see another thread.

That is exactly what happened. With Dhoni conspiracies are fairly obvious.

[GautiMaan]

Yeah, but Dhoni was not the captain when Binny picked those wickets. It was Raina, Again I dont think Dhoni reads too much into performance against BD in ODIs. As far as Dhoni is concerned, Binny is a quota player. Since Binny was keeping his loverboy Rohit out, he tried to prove Binny is useless in first test by giving him less overs. But Binny made a 50 and so he was forced to keep him for 2nd match.Same strategy again. Binny failed with Bball and bag and he is out.Rohit in .Bingo. Regarding Ishant, see another thread.

True when Binny got out trying to attack-he was dropped,but when Rohit did the same this is what he said

"You will go for your shots and get out at times," Dhoni said. "I am not really bothered about it because the attitude is more important. I think that's why he tried to step out and play Mooen. But you also have to choose your timing because if you have five or 10 minutes remaining for the tea or lunch then slightly curb your instincts. But overall I am happy with the way he [Rohit] went out to play his shots."

If posters like yodaesque and velu still cant see the double standards,i dont know what to say.

[vvvslaxman]

If posters like yodaesque and velu still cant see the double standards,i dont know what to say.

We didn't use 5th bowler much.. He was highlighting that. But he didnt use the same standard with a statement we didn't get much of 6th batsman. lol Atleast Binny savved a test for this bozo. What did Rohit do other than a fluke wicket.

[BlueBee]

I support Dhoni :vroam:

[The Realist]

Apparently Fletcher is behind Ashwin not playing any games in Eng so far. He has pre-conceived ideas and is too stubborn to change them - he still thinks its 2005 and the pitches will seam like they used to before Eng updated its drainage facilities at all test grounds. If that is the level of his contributions then he he should be in a retirement home somewhere not coaching an international sport team.

[The Realist]

Is it time to say goodbye to Duncan Fletcher and his coaching staff? Sir Geoffrey Boycott tells it like it is. After India’s humiliating collapse for 161 runs in the second innings of the fourth Test at Manchester, Boycott broke down the key factors for India’s consecutive losses. “Quite frankly, I do believe that England were so poor (at Lord’s) that they made India look better than they are,” he told BBC’s Test Match Special after the match ended in less than three days. “Because, if you think it through, their best batsmen, Virat Kohli hasn’t made a run on this tour and Cheteshwar Pujara, who’s their go-to-man at number three, he hasn’t made any runs either. And Bhuvneshwar Kumar, who was nipping the ball on the green-top at Lord’s, he looks as if he is absolutely knackered and is bowling slower and slower.” There is not a shadow of doubt that this Indian team has been caught napping or since Lord’s. The question to ask is this: What have Duncan Fletcher and his coaching staff been doing? Two days before the fourth Test, Fletcher was seen talking to Pujara and Kohli in the nets. If he is helping build the future of Indian cricket, then these two batsmen are its backbone. Fletcher knows it, and he also knew that they haven’t been scoring any runs. The two would bat in the nets, have a chat – twice for Pujara and longer than the one-time for Kohli – and then go back to working out. With four Tests gone, Pujara averages 25.87 in this series, Kohli 13.50. Clearly Fletcher’s tips haven’t worked. This lack of awareness is perhaps most reflected in India’s slip fielding. The thinking process revealed by the management says that the team’s best fielders are placed in slips and hence they should make good slip catchers. It is a flawed concept. Fielding coach Trevor Penney was considered to be one of the best outfielders in the County circuit during his time. Does that automatically make him a good slip fielder? The third stand in this tripod, bowling coach Joe Dawes, bears some blame as well. This is not about line or length, or even field placements to tail-enders. This is about the simplest responsibility of a bowling coach and that is managing his resources. And Indian bowling resources have been mismanaged. Ishant Sharma is out injured, Kumar looked tired in Southampton and it showed in his lost pace at Old Trafford. Dhoni talks about ‘process’ independent of ‘results’. The bottom-line however is this. Ironing out batting techniques, rebuilding an entire slip cordon from scratch and managing bowling resources takes time. If this team management had been in place only from the beginning of this tour, then it was understandable. Yet Fletcher and his coaching staff have been working since 2011. They have been here in England with India before. They have seen these same problems plaguing a different squad three years ago. And nothing has changed except the players’ names. If India lose a third consecutive Test to England, it should not matter that the World Cup is less than nine months away. Fletcher and his coaching staff would have already outstayed their welcome. http://www.firstpost.com/sports/time-say-goodbye-duncan-fletcher-coaching-staff-1658953.html

[asterix]

Ok, first time now fingers start pointing on Joe Dawes... :nice: The bugger has had an easy time so far, making money without any visible progress...

[The Realist]

India vs England: 4 Reasons why it’s time for Mahendra Singh Dhoni and Duncan Fletcher to go 1. Pathetic Overseas Record – With the loss at Old Trafford, Dhoni now has the dubious distinction of being the only Indian captain to lose 13 away test matches and counting. The sufferings of the fans need to end sooner than later! For how long are we going to see our team getting bashed day in and day out on foreign shores? From losing 4-0 to England in England in 2011, followed by 4-0 loss to Australia, losing to South Africa and even New Zealand; the story is no different 3 years later and India is again trailing 1-2 in the current series under the leadership of Dhoni and Fletcher. 2. Average Home Record – The skipper has a good record at home; however, numbers don’t necessarily speak the whole truth. It was under the current captain-coach duo that the team was thrashed 2-1 by England at home in 2012. It was their first victory in India since the 1984-85 series. 3. Negative Attitude – The current team management under Duncan Fletcher has a negative attitude and is content in being the second best. They have got nothing to show as an achievement except for few odd series win in ODIs and handful of T20s. There is nothing wrong in trying to win and ending up as loser, but it’s criminal to lose without trying. The current coaching staff is doing nothing but playing with the emotions of the cricket lovers. They have failed to instill the fighting spirit and the winning attitude in this team. 4. Obsession with Few Players – The Duncan-Dhoni pair is obsessed with certain players and these individuals get unlimited opportunities as compared to other deserving performers. The prime example here is Rohit Sharma and Ravindra Jadeja. The only distinction that Jadeja has is playing for Chennai Super Kings and the best example is the current series, wherein he has neither taken wickets nor scored runs, but is still playing for reasons beyond explanation. We now need a fighting captain who hates losing, not hesitant to voice his opinion, takes tough decisions and can motivate his team to win in alien conditions. http://www.india.com/top-n/india-vs-england-4-reasons-why-its-time-for-mahendra-singh-dhoni-and-duncan-fletcher-to-go-115648/

[King Tendulkar]

India vs England: 4 Reasons why it’s time for Mahendra Singh Dhoni and Duncan Fletcher to go 1. Pathetic Overseas Record – With the loss at Old Trafford, Dhoni now has the dubious distinction of being the only Indian captain to lose 13 away test matches and counting. The sufferings of the fans need to end sooner than later! For how long are we going to see our team getting bashed day in and day out on foreign shores? From losing 4-0 to England in England in 2011, followed by 4-0 loss to Australia, losing to South Africa and even New Zealand; the story is no different 3 years later and India is again trailing 1-2 in the current series under the leadership of Dhoni and Fletcher. 2. Average Home Record – The skipper has a good record at home; however, numbers don’t necessarily speak the whole truth. It was under the current captain-coach duo that the team was thrashed 2-1 by England at home in 2012. It was their first victory in India since the 1984-85 series. 3. Negative Attitude – The current team management under Duncan Fletcher has a negative attitude and is content in being the second best. They have got nothing to show as an achievement except for few odd series win in ODIs and handful of T20s. There is nothing wrong in trying to win and ending up as loser, but it’s criminal to lose without trying. The current coaching staff is doing nothing but playing with the emotions of the cricket lovers. They have failed to instill the fighting spirit and the winning attitude in this team. 4. Obsession with Few Players – The Duncan-Dhoni pair is obsessed with certain players and these individuals get unlimited opportunities as compared to other deserving performers. The prime example here is Rohit Sharma and Ravindra Jadeja. The only distinction that Jadeja has is playing for Chennai Super Kings and the best example is the current series, wherein he has neither taken wickets nor scored runs, but is still playing for reasons beyond explanation. We now need a fighting captain who hates losing, not hesitant to voice his opinion, takes tough decisions and can motivate his team to win in alien conditions. http://www.india.com/top-n/india-vs-england-4-reasons-why-its-time-for-mahendra-singh-dhoni-and-duncan-fletcher-to-go-115648/

That's very explainable as the article hints at. CSK and thus srini/dhoni nexus of evils financial considerations. Great boost for brand value